Subject: RE: IPP> Re: JMP> URGENT: Should impressions include blank last p age back sides or not?

From: "Wagner, William" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:44:14 -0500

This was discussed in great detail at the LA meeting.  If one agrees
that the MIB is to provide information on what the printer does, which
may not necessarily agree with what the rate structures may or may not
be at a particular place at a particular time,  then I think the
contention that sending a sheet side through transfer and fixing steps
constitutes making an impression. The question of how much colorant is
put on that page is a separate one. If it is a single period, a fully
colored page or a blank page, colorant use is a different characteristic
from impression, and one which could be instrumented. 

In most page printers, the information that a page has no marking is not
readily available. The page goes though the same processes, takes pretty
much the same time and the same wear and tear on the mechanism. I
suggest that,  unless the printer has a way of  separately ejecting such
sheet sides, from a printer point of view,  treating a blank side
differently is an artificial distinction.

The point may be moot. I am told that commercial duplication houses
charge by the sheet, with perhaps a different sheet rate for duplex (but
no distinction for blank sides). A large in-house reports  person told
me that there are no blank pages; there is a header or footer, a page
number, or a  "This page intentionally left blank" message.

I suggest that a measure of importance from those actually concerned
with the accounting be obtained before the MIB imposes the derivation of
another parameter on the printer.

W. A. Wagner (Bill Wagner)
OSICOM/DPI

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Jay Martin [SMTP:[email-masked]]
> Sent:	Wednesday, December 17, 1997 11:50 PM
> To:	Tom Hastings
> Cc:	[email-masked]; [email-masked]
> Subject:	IPP> Re: JMP> URGENT: Should impressions include blank
> last page back sides  or not?
> 
> Sorry, but I must agree with Angelo Caruso with the position
> that most folks are going to be pretty upset if they are
> charged for blanks sides of sheets.  Can't say that I like
> that idea at all.
> 
> 	...jay
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --  JK Martin               |  Email:   [email-masked]          --
> --  Underscore, Inc.        |  Voice:   (603) 889-7000              --
> --  41C Sagamore Park Road  |  Fax:     (603) 889-2699              --
> --  Hudson, NH 03051-4915   |  Web:     http://www.underscore.com   --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

---

From: David R Spencer <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:03:04 -0500

Bill,

I'm just monitoring the group, but isn't there a significant difference between blank pages within a document and documents in a duplex job with an odd number of pages causing the COMPLETELY blank back side of the last page to be counted?  Almost all page printers include an option for not printing such completely blank pages, and I think the point about user concern is well taken.

Therefore, perhaps the sentence in the definition of impression:
> If a two-sided document has an odd number of pages, the last sheet still counts as two impressions, if that sheet makes two passes through the marker or the marker marks on both sides of a sheet in a single pass.
should be:
If a two-sided document has an odd number of pages and there are no marks to be made on second side of the last sheet, the last sheet should count as one impression, instead of two, even if that sheet makes two passes through the marker.  

David R. Spencer

Spencer & Associates Publishing, Ltd.
Three Giffard Way, Melville, NY  11747-2310
[email-masked]
1-516-367-6655   Fax:1-516-367-2878
http://www.spencer.com
______________________________________________________________________

---

From: Ron Bergman <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:03:29 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)

Tom,

I agree with Bill on this issue, especially that "the point may be moot"

Have you asked Kinkos how they charge in this situation?

We should stick with the agreement per the LA meeting.

	Ron Bergman
	Dataproducts Corp.

---

From: Ron Bergman <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:03:29 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)

Tom,

	Ron Bergman
	Dataproducts Corp.

---

From: Tom Hastings <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:30:18 PST

>Have you asked Kinkos how they charge in this situation?

I believe that Kinkos charges by the sheet for printing from a PC.
For copying, they have a different rate for one versus two sided
copying.  So far, I have not run into a duplex printer at Kinkos, 
so I don't know whether they have a policy for two-sided printing.
But if the printing charge is like the copying charge, this issue
would be moot.

>We should stick with the agreement per the LA meeting.

Then we may want to add a note that impressions is more for monitoring
and sheets is for monitoring and accounting.

Tom

There is another comment on this issue that was sent only to the IPP DL
suggesting a rather simple algorithm that only worries about the last
sheet, not any other sheets, and only as a recommendation.  Is that a good
compromise?

>X-Sender: [email-masked]
>Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:03:04 PST
>To: "Wagner, William" <[email-masked]>
>From: David R Spencer <[email-masked]>
>Subject: RE: IPP> Re: JMP> URGENT: Should impressions include blank last
> page back sides  or not?
>Cc: [email-masked]
>Sender: [email-masked]
>X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by
garfield.cp10.es.xerox.com id LAA26719
>
>Bill,
>
>I'm just monitoring the group, but isn't there a significant difference
between blank pages within a document and documents in a duplex job with an
odd number of pages causing the COMPLETELY blank back side of the last page
to be counted?  Almost all page printers include an option for not printing
such completely blank pages, and I think the point about user concern is
well taken.
>> If a two-sided document has an odd number of pages, the last sheet still
counts as two impressions, if that sheet makes two passes through the
marker or the marker marks on both sides of a sheet in a single pass.
>should be:
>If a two-sided document has an odd number of pages and there are no marks
to be made on second side of the last sheet, the last sheet should count as
one impression, instead of two, even if that sheet makes two passes through
the marker.

---

From: Tom Hastings <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:30:18 PST

Tom

---

From: Ron Bergman <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:45:03 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)

Tom,

> and sheets is for monitoring and accounting.
Could you post a copy of the note to be added to the DL?

> sheet, not any other sheets, and only as a recommendation.  Is that a good
The proposed change sounds reasonable.

	Ron Bergman
	Dataproducts Corp.

---

From: Tom Hastings <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:40:23 PST

I am not proposing any change to IPP from the current definition
of impression which the Model document has as:

12.2.5 impression

An "impression" is the image (possibly many print-stream pages in different
configurations) imposed onto a single media page.

I am only proposing to add a warning note to the Job Monitoring MIB,
since we have agreed that impressions include passes past the marker
that don't make marks, on even the last sheet.

I propose to add the following note to the definition of the
term impressions (to which all attributes and objects contain a reference)
that we have in the PWG Job Monitoring MIB:

NOTE - Since impressions include blank sides, it is suggested that 
accounting application implementers consider charging for sheets, rather
than impressions, possibly factoring in value of the sides attribute for 
possibly different charges for one versus two-sided printing, since some 
users may think that impressions don't include blank sides.

Here is the definition that we agreed to in principle at the L.A. meeting
and for which there still seems to be support from most respondents:

Impression:  For a print job, an impression is the passage of the entire
side of a sheet by the marker, whether or not any marks are made and
independent of the number of passes that the side makes past the marker.
Thus a four pass color process counts as a single impression.  One-sided
processing involves one impression per sheet.  Two-sided processing
involves two impressions per sheet.  If a two-sided document has an odd
number of pages, the last sheet still counts as two impressions, if that
sheet makes two passes through the marker or the marker marks on both sides
of a sheet in a single pass.  Two-up printing is the placement of two
logical pages on one side of a sheet and so is still a single impression.
See "page" and "sheet".

If you have any objections to the note, please voice them today,
since we are forwarding the Job Mon MIB as an Internet-Draft today.

Thanks,
Tom

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From: Tom Hastings <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:40:23 PST

12.2.5 impression

Thanks,
Tom

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From: Ron Bergman <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:45:03 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)

Tom,

	Ron Bergman
	Dataproducts Corp.

---

From: Tom Hastings <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:40:23 PST

12.2.5 impression

Thanks,
Tom

---

From: Tom Hastings <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:40:23 PST

12.2.5 impression

Thanks,
Tom

---

From: Ron Bergman <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:36:47 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)

Tom,

I don't have any objections to your proposal.

	Ron Bergman
	Dataproducts Corp.

---

From: Ron Bergman <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:36:47 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)

Tom,

	Ron Bergman
	Dataproducts Corp.