Subject: Re: [103attendees] [EXTERNAL] Re: Visas for IETF 103 in Thailand

From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 15:52:53 -0400

Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) <[email-masked]> wrote:
    Carsten> Yes, it would need to be qualified as “not legal advice”, “subject to
    Carsten> change”, “void where prohibited”, etc.  It would help if it contains
    Carsten> pointers to authoritative information I can look up myself.  And,
    Carsten> ultimately, it is my decision (or that of my organization) how to
    Carsten> handle this information, but the IETF could do most of the legwork
    Carsten> here.  Regularly, as a routine component of venue selection and
    Carsten> preparing for a meeting.

    > Hi Carsten,

    > As Chair of the IAOC let me say that no information is being withheld
    > on Thailand visas.  We are simply reminding everyone to do what you
    > already do when visiting a new country - learn what the entry
    > requirements for your personal situation are, such as reading on the
    > web, asking your travel agent, or consulting a visa service.

Glenn, what Carsten is asking is that we get a list of what the IAOC
found to be *authoritative* information sources.  Yes, we can Google, but
there is a motive for the non-authortative sources (particularly those with
a service to sell) to do better SEO, so they are going to show up earlier,
and there may be language issues that keep us from finding the real site.

I think that we all have experiences where talking to Travel Agents or
company travel people results in more confusion because they simply do not
have the information they need.  We have to tell *them* what the
authoritative information is.

I am surprised that https://www.businesseventsthailand.com is authoritative
as I'd expect to find it at something.go.th...

We aren't asking that you determine for us if we need a VISA, but rather to
help us find authoritative code that we can run ourselves (or point our
travel people at) to make that determination.

    > I personally spent about 20 minutes with google search and some reading
    > to understand how it applies to my own situation.  One thing that
    > caught my eye was in the Questions and Answers on Thai Visa section on
    > the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Kingdom of Thailand website
    > (http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/4908/15380-Questions-&-Answers-on-Thai-Visa.html),
    > which stated a financial support requirement for tourists from the US
    > and 41 other countries that don't require a visa for tourist travel up
    > to 30 days, do need to have "adequate finances equivalent to at least
    > 10,000 Baht per person or 20,000 Baht per family".  5,000 Bhat is as of
    > today's exchange rate around $150 US.  In other words - if I visit as a
    > tourist, I need to have at least $150 US in my wallet when entering.
    > That's a something I didn't know until I read about it.

This is useful to know. (How did 10000 Baht become 5000 = 150US?, btw?)
Is a valid credit card "finances equivalent to"?  Or do I really need $150US?
How about 150EU? Or 150CDN?

I'm annoyed by the above page that keeps telling me that the list of 41
countries is at www.mfa.go.th/ which after some puzzling through, I finally
find at:
   http://www.consular.go.th/main/contents/filemanager/VISA/Visa%20on%20Arrival/VOA_%E0%B9%81%E0%B8%81%E0%B9%89%E0%B9%84%E0%B8%82%2015-03-61.pdf

I saved that PDF file, the filename is in Thai.

--
Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-

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From: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 21:18:02 +0000

In line....[GD]

On 8/15/18, 12:53 PM, "Michael Richardson" <[email-masked]> wrote:

    

[GD]  The site John Levine cited (https://www.businesseventsthailand.com/plan-your-events/general-travel-information/visa-requirements/) is run by the a government agency and it links to  (http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/4908)  which is the Kingdom's Ministry of Foreign affairs page which has visa info and Q&A.   So far in my own reading those seem to be the two most authoritative sites and are both published by the Kingdom.  The second site is a .th domain. There two are where I started reading.

[GD] My mistake - I should have said 10,000 Baht which is about $300 US.  Some sites say you don't literally need $300 as major credit cards will be accepted by inspectors.  However, this isn't clearly stated on either of the sites I mention above.  The Ministry of Foreign Affairs Q&A says "adequate finances equivalent to ..." which could be interpreted a couple ways in by own reading of it - either cash in pocket, or credit cards, or I guess gold bars if you like carrying them around.   

-glenn

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From: Stig Venaas <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 18:22:25 -0700

Hi

> [GD]  The site John Levine cited (https://www.businesseventsthailand.com/plan-your-events/general-travel-information/visa-requirements/) is run by the a government agency and it links to  (http://w…

I did not quite trust the businessevents web site, so I tried to to
look at the cited references, including the Ministry of Foreign
affairs, and I could not find any place there where it says that a
visa is not needed when attending a conference. The info I've seen
from various Thai consulates' web sites all seem to indicate that a
visa is required for attending a conference. Is there a more
authoritative source than the businessevents site stating this?

Stig

> 103attendees mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/103attendees

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From: "Paul Hoffman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 18:37:33 -0700

On 15 Aug 2018, at 18:22, Stig Venaas wrote:

> Is there a more

As others have indicated, the only truly authoritative source is the 
customs and immigration people who you meet when entering a country. 
Everything else is "anecdata". Those people get to decide whether or not 
you prepared correctly.

--Paul Hoffman

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From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 17:49:10 +1200

On 2018-08-16 13:22, Stig Venaas wrote:
....
> authoritative source than the businessevents site stating this?

I hope it's clear why IASA does not, cannot and should not offer
any advice. If a person born in country A but having a passport
from country B and resident in country C wants to attend a
conference in country D, travelling via country E, that person
(or their travel agent) needs to find out whether a visa is needed
in their particular case. As far as I can see, except for very clear
cases, that means contacting the relevant consulate (the one that
handles travellers from country C, but it might be located in yet
another country).

  Brian

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From: Carsten Bormann <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 09:19:04 +0200

On Aug 16, 2018, at 07:49, Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]> wrote:
> .....
> any advice.

Of course.

> If a person born in country A but having a passport
> in their particular case.

All that I was asking that, maybe, we could be efficient about that.

> As far as I can see, except for very clear

The majority of the cases are those very clear cases.
If we could collect relevant information in a ready-to-process form, we could be way more efficient than with everyone having to start from scratch.

I apologize for asking for efficiency here; that may be a German thing.

Grüße, Carsten

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From: [email-masked]
Date: 16 Aug 2018 09:19:42 -0400

In article <[email-masked]> you write:
>If we could collect relevant information in a ready-to-process form, we could be way more efficient than with everyone having to start from

If you can find such information, please let us know.  

I'm on the IAOC, we've been looking for months, and you've got what
we've got: informal advice from the government's meetings agency which
may or may not be what immigration agents follow.

R's,
John

PS: The answer to any question starting "did you try to ask ..." is yes and
it didn't help.

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From: Mikael Abrahamsson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2018 07:19:22 +0200 (CEST)

On Thu, 16 Aug 2018, Pete Resnick wrote:

> Me: I am coming to Thailand for an Internet conference. What sort of visa do 
> I need? I am a US citizen.
> Consulate: Oh, for that, they are only giving Tourist visas.
> Me: A tourist visa?
> Consulate: Are you going to be making any money?
> Me: No, I am not making money.
> Consulate: Yes, then a tourist visa is fine. When you arrive, just tell them 
> you are there for pleasure.
> Me: Is that written down anywhere official?
> Consulate: No.
> Me: OK, thank you.

This is exactly what I meant with "make it easier for everybody". This is 
what Randy meant by "south east asia bureaucracy".

I'll give another example. Thailand just recently announced a new rule 
that if you have some kind of temporary permit to stay in the country, 
then you must always report if you're staying somewhere that is not a 
hotel. Hotels take copies of your passport and entry stamp and reports 
this to the authorities, so now the same thing must happen whereever 
you're staying. So now the house/apartment owner and you need to go to the 
local immigration office and report (or the owner can create an online 
account and report there). So since I was staying at a regular house half 
the time, I went there with the house owner to report. This is in a non 
touristy area. So I go to the local immigration office (15km drive away 
near the Myanmar border), with already filled in forms according to what I 
thought was necessary. When we show up, first they basically have no idea 
what we're after, it takes 5 minutes before they realise what needs to be 
done, I see "*sigh*" and almost "*rolling eyes*" on the officer, gets more 
forms, we have to fill in them, documents are copied, signed, stamped, 
signed by a higher ranking officer and off I go. Took 20-30 minutes of 
their (and my) time, to follow rules that clearly wasn't designed to find 
people like me (westerner on holiday for a month staying with family in 
the country).

So my advice is to follow what the people said at the consulate. Make it 
easier for everybody and just say you're there to eat nice thai food and 
look at the views. This is not untruthful, right?

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: [email-masked]