Subject: [107attendees] Enough please - Re: [107all] Jabber Service Information for IETF 107

From: Glen <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 09:10:08 -0700

All -

For those of you who don't know me, my name is Glen Barney.  I'm the
IT Director for AMS, the company that provides secretariat services to
the IETF.  I am the one who updated the Jabber page, who added Adium
to it, and who sent the announcement about the updated page.

I undertook this action for two reasons:  #1 Ted, as he has already
pointed out, complained about the absence of any help or information
on Jabber on the IETF website and #2, Despite being "just a vendor", I
actually do personally care about the IETF and its participants, and
about helping the IETF and making things better.  So I took it upon
myself - on my personal time (if there is such a thing) - to try to
compile a list of resources that would resolve Ted's concerns, and I
published it quickly, since the meeting starts.... now.

Since that time, I've received public and private criticism that, to
me, is much more harsh than the situation warrants.  Being called
irresponsible on a public list is particularly demotivating. FWIW, I'm
a fixer.  I don't set policy.  I don't decide who uses what.  I
operate the servers, and I try to help in other areas where I can.  If
I had had time this morning I would have already investigated the
clients others suggested, and posted them on the page.  Instead, I've
had to wade through a ton of additional criticism, which takes
valuable time.  So now that page has to wait longer.

But the point of my email is to say this:  This thread needs to be
moved elsewhere, now.  We are trying to get a meeting going, and this
list is for immediate discussion about issues for attendees of the
meeting.  Everyone has made their point about Adium, and suggested
other clients.  The future of Jabber is a topic worthy of discussion,
but does not belong here.

I say this because I'm already also getting a lot of unsubscribe
requests from people who don't want to hear about this.  I've
processed those, but I don't think we're serving the community by
removing attendees from this list.   In these critical times, it's
important that we support - and get support from - everyone involved
in the welfare of the IETF.

I've received your messages loud and clear:  This type of help and
assistance isn't wanted.  I got it.  But right now, I just want to
prevent more people from unsubscribing this list, and missing other
important updates about the meeting.

So, please, someone nominate a list, and then take this there.  I
don't have time to put this list on moderation right now, with
everything else we're facing.

Thank you for your support.

Glen
--
Glen Barney
IT Director
AMS (IETF Secretariat)

---

From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 13:04:20 -0400

Well sorry about that. I was not intended to criticize you personally. I
was intending to respond to folk on the list of the mindset, 'well Adium
works for me so if it doesn't work for anyone else it is because they are a
loser'. I was thinking we were discussing what we should collectively
recommend, I did not expect you to know my experience of using Adium at two
IETFs in a row:

This was someone asking me to Jabber scribe, I then discover I don't have a
client on my machine, so install Adium. Then discover my gmail account no
longer works. So try signing up for an account at the ones suggested in
Adium. By this time the meeting has already started. Then discover that the
service I tried isn't actually a working service but Adium isn't actually
telling me that. So 20-30 minutes into a WG meeting I find I can't get it
to work.

Trying to configure a badly designed app during a meeting when you are
trying to take notes is a highly frustrating experience. I do not use
Jabber except at IETF and since I re-image machines regularly it has to be
installed each time.

A list of working clients would be very helpful. But they do have to work
for the people trying to work from the list.

On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 12:10 PM Glen <[email-masked]> wrote:

> 107attendees mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/107attendees
>

---

From: "Stuart William Card" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 14:40:59 -0400

all --

This is _not_ a comment on XMPP, Jabber or particular software tools. It
is _not_ a comment on who said what to whom. It is a "Thank you" to all
who have made honest efforts on this, specifically including but certainly
not limited to Glen.

My particular experience, following the semi-random path that I chose, on
my specific platform, starting from his hints, was relatively painless:
perhaps I was just lucky; I have often had much more painful experiences.
I share the frustration everyone has felt when trying to do a job and the
tools get in the way rather than helping; but the message "This type of
help and assistance isn't wanted" didn't come from me, and I doubt it came
from the "great silent majority", if anyone at all actually meant that.

I post this merely as a reminder that IETF is a community, wherein pretty
much everyone has different experiences and strong opinions, but from
contractors to employees to sponsors to volunteers, are actually trying to
work for the greater good, and making decisions/recommendations (including
not just technical but resource allocation etc.) that seem best to them.
Incompetence, laziness and malice are all rare here.

So yes, if these tools should be improved, let's discuss that, in good
faith, on some list other than this one, closing (I hope) discussion here
on this topic with a sincere "Thank you" to all who have contributed.

-- Stu

> ...  Being called
> irresponsible on a public list is particularly demotivating...
> assistance isn't wanted...

-- 
Stuart W. Card, VP & Chief Scientist
Critical Technologies Inc. (CTI)
<[email-masked]>

---

From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 13:41:16 -0700

> For those of you who don't know me, my name is Glen Barney.

and a frelling ops hero.  thanks glen.

randy, who uses adium on mojave, slack, signal, line, ... :)