Subject: [113attendees] an icky Hilton privacy issue?

From: Jim Reid <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2022 16:36:14 +0000

I’ve booked a room at the Hilton. Their website wants my address. Though I can’t understand why they need that info since they’ve not charged my credit card. But let that annoyance pass.

When I started to fill in my address the website popped up a list of postal addresses that matched the first few characters of mine. The addresses on this list presumably belong to Hilton customers. Which would be an epic, epic GDPR fail. I can now find out how many friends and relatives have stayed at a Hilton recently.

Is it a surprise that somebody living at 10 Downing Street is a Hilton customer? :-) Not that I have any friends or relatives at that location of course.

---

From: Ole Jacobsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2022 08:49:58 -0800

I don't think that is how it works, Jim.

Lots of websites these days have this "start typing the first characters of your address"
feature, which I presume it gets from Google (maps for example) or similar global public
listings. Postal codes are also popular especially in places where there is "one per house".

Ole

> On Feb 7, 2022, at 08:36, Jim Reid <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> -- 
> 113attendees mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/113attendees

Ole J. Jacobsen
Editor and Publisher
The Internet Protocol Journal
Office: +1 415-550-9433
Cell:   +1 415-370-4628
Web: protocoljournal.org
E-mail: [email-masked]
E-mail: [email-masked]
Skype: organdemo

---

From: "Livingood, Jason" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2022 18:11:55 +0000

Agree with Ole and there are APIs for this such as https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/javascript/places-autocomplete. I see this sort of function on many websites these days, most of which would not have my address on file.

JL

On 2/7/22, 11:50, "113attendees on behalf of Ole Jacobsen" <[email-masked] on behalf of olejacobsen=[email-masked]> wrote:

    Ole

    > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/113attendees__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!S_wDJcApclTJJy8FheTJ5afGQT7W0gZlfhATQzorGDEAD32zidZ2YMPA7jWuzaFAoxEfcw$

    Ole J. Jacobsen
    Editor and Publisher

    --
    113attendees mailing list
    [email-masked]
    https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/113attendees__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!S_wDJcApclTJJy8FheTJ5afGQT7W0gZlfhATQzorGDEAD32zidZ2YMPA7jWuzaFAoxEfcw$

---

From: "Scheffenegger, Richard" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 11:17:06 +0100

Just wanted to give people a short heads up:

The Hilton Vienna Park is located right next to the Subway and S-Bahn
(Fast Commuter Rail). Confusingly to non-locals, the Subway station is
called "Landstraße / Wien Mitte", while the S-Bahn station is only known
as "Wien Mitte" (Vienna Central). And yes, the "Wien Mitte" got added
later to the subway station name, to be less confusing.

 From the Airport, there are two direct train lines - the less
expensive, marginally slower S-Bahn with stops in all the commuter
stations, and the direct connection with the CAT Line. Note that the CAT
uses a different ticketing/billing system - while the S-Bahn can be used
with "VOR" tickets, which can be used in the larger Vienna Metropolitan
region.

Note that while the travel time itself may be slightly longer with S7,
the trains are staggered such, that whichever one is leaving sooner will
also arrive faster. There used to be 2 CAT services per hour, 2 S7
services, plus 1-2 ICE services operating the city/airport line, for an
average waiting time of around 10 min.

CAT trains depart at the airport (when running) at 08 and 38 min past
top of the hour. (See below for other trains)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Airport_Train

CAT Services are currently suspended, but it is not unreasonable to
expect that to resume by the time of the IETF. (Airport Luggage can be
checked in directly at the train station Wien Mitte, if you take that
option).

A two-way ticket on the CAT is priced €19(online prepurchase) /
€21(vending machine).

These CAT tickets can be bought in combination with some of the VOR
multi-day tickets (see below) online or at the vending machine.

Going with the "regular" train - S-Bahn , or at times the ICE, the
airport is 1 zone away from the city. If you happen to end up in the ICE
(same price to go to the city), you will have to change on the first
stop (Wien Hauptbahnhof / Vienna Main Station) to the S-Bahn towards
Floridsdorf - this is a short hike and two or three floors down from
where the main trains arrive. Taking the ICE really is no sigificant
time difference, as that train also runs directly into the city, and the
"main" S-Bahn line runs at a 3-5 min interval (20 min during the night),
and as long as you choose the correct platform towards Floridsdorf, any
S-Bahn or commuter train will go through "Wien Mitte".

For those who are train afficianados, here is the official ÖBB line
table on the rail between vienna and the airport (907):

https://www.oebb.at/de/dam/jcr:f51bb135-a368-4fd2-a3c0-b3688d799aa3/kif907.pdf

VOR ticketed trains are running at 03, 11, 19, 33, 41 and 46 minutes.
The 03 / 33 service is the one via Vienna Main Station, the other four
will run directly via Wien Mitte / Vienna Central.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_S-Bahn

VOR ticket can be calculated and prepaid here:

https://shop.vor.at/

Price for a single trip Airport-City is €4,80 (or €9,60 for both ways).

If you plan to use public transport in the city throughout the week, you
can combine a single-trip ticket (airport to city limits) with a 2-day,
3-day, 8-day (non-consecutive), week (consecutive) or monthly pass valid
in the city center:

https://preisauskunft.vor.at/current/index.html
48h ticket: €14.1
72h ticket: €17.1
1 week ticket: €17.1 (ends on Monday 9:00 morning the week after
invalidation)
8 day ticket: €40.8 (each day needs to be invalidated individually.
Multiple persons can "share" this ticket but have to travel as a group.
All the above tickets are not individalized and can be used (at
different times) by a different person.

Month's pass €51 (I believe this one is only valid for a specifc person,
and has to be bought in a VOR ticket shop - located at major stations.

The least cost option to cover the week of the IETF is probably:
1 single ticket (€2.4) airport to city limits
48/72hr/week ticket within city limits until Monday 09:00 (14.1/17.1)
1 week ticket coverig the actual IETF week (17.1)
1 single ticket returning to the airport (on top of the still valid week
ticket) (€2.4)

Total cost €39 arriving between Mon 14.3 .. Fri 18.3, or €36 arriving
Sat/Sun 19.3 / 20.3, or €21.9 arriving Mon 21.3.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_U-Bahn

---

From: Vittorio Bertola <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 13:56:41 +0100 (CET)

> Il 08/02/2022 11:17 Scheffenegger, Richard <[email-masked]> ha scritto:
> 

This is what I did the last time I was in Vienna. It works well, unless you decide that since the venue is so near to the city centre, and since you don't plan to visit places outside of it(*), then you won't need transportation at all. Otherwise, Vienna's metro and tram system is great.

The only thing I seem to remember is that getting the right two tickets from the red S-bahn ticket vending machine at the airport (not the green CAT vending machine) was not super easy. I even suspect that I might just have bought the full price ticket to Vienna and then the pass in Wien Mitte. Perhaps, nearer to the date, you could confirm how to do this.

(*) such as the Hollywood-famous Schönbrunn Castle or Beethoven's Heiligenstadt home, for example.
-- 
Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
[email-masked] 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy

---

From: Eberhard W Lisse <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:19:34 +0200

Thank you,

this is very helpful.

el

> Just wanted to give people a short heads up:
[...]
-- 
Dr Eberhard W Lisse
Managing Director
Namibian Network Information Center (Pty) Ltd.
PO Box 8421 Bachbrecht 10007 Namibia
If this email is signed with GPG, Sect 20 Act No 4 of 2019 may apply

---

From: "Scheffenegger, Richard" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 17:44:23 +0100

Yes - the most "common" walk path at the airport down to the train
station leads you across way too few ticket vending machines.

Also, it is not uncommon to have people in a big hurry trying to pick up
a VIE-city limit tickets there - if you are easily stressed out when
people start up queuing behind you, there is another set of vending
machines on the other end of the train platform (the "uncommon" path),
or some of the tickets can be prepaid.

The longer-term tickets can be bought online - the short term tickets
are only valid for a limited period (1hr I believe), making them not
really all that suitable for prepaid online purchase - especially if
there may be some things taking unplanned time at the airport.

Finally - as I mentioned there are around 6 trains running per hour, so
missing one train is not catastropic ;)

Am 08.02.2022 um 14:05 schrieb Elmar K. Bins:
> Re Vittorio,
>
> vittorio.bertola=[email-masked] (Vittorio Bertola) wrote:
>
> I don't believe the ÖBB machine at the airport will sell you a week pass, so
> the 4,80 is what you'll have to part with.
>
> On the off-chance that it does, you need that week pass (or whatever you
> choose), plus a ticket to the city zone border; on the machine's destination
> chooser page, there's a box in the upper right corner labeled "Stadtgrenze".
> That ticket will be somewhere in the 2,60 range.
>
> Being local and having a year pass, I still bought quite a few full priced
> tickets VIE-City, because it's really not easy to NOT miss that little thingy,
> especially when you're in a hurry to catch the S-Bahn.
>
> Elmar.

---

From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2022 13:34:56 -0500

> Just wanted to give people a short heads up:

Thank you,  maybe you could remove a few options, and it could go into the FAQ?

    > average waiting time of around 10 min.

It sounds like the simplest thing is to obtain a multi-day zone 1 pass, and
then get a 2-zone upgrade to get to/from the airport?
Since the CAT is more expensive and might not resume, just using S7 seems
like a plan to me ;-)

    > VOR ticket can be calculated and prepaid here:

There doesn't seem to be a language button that I could find, but google
translate seemed to work.

    > 8 day ticket: €40.8 (each day needs to be invalidated individually.

...

    > Sat/Sun 19.3 / 20.3, or €21.9 arriving Mon 21.3.

Thanks for this suggestion.

--
Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>   . o O ( IPv6 IøT consulting )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide

---

From: Alexa Morris <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2022 11:36:53 -0800

This is great info, and thank you Richard for acting as our informal local tour guide! If you have a few moments, I think this would be a great addition to our meeting wiki: https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/ietf113. Anyone can post to the wiki, and it's a great place to share information so that it's easy for others to find. 

Thanks,
Alexa

> On Feb 9, 2022, at 10:34 AM, Michael Richardson <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
>

---

From: Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:31:00 +0100

it would be great to know whether the buses have special covid-related 
air filtering installed.

That means new boxes installed to push air from down to up, and to 
filter at the up.

Some buses do that in other places recently, if I understand correctly.

Alex

---

From: Christian Amsüss <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:45:36 +0100

On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 03:31:00PM +0100, Alexandre Petrescu wrote:
> it would be great to know whether the buses have special covid-related air
> filtering installed.

I haven't noticed any changes in the ventilation systems of public
transport here, and neither Wiener Linen (in-city transport) nor ÖBB
(national railway) advertise any such thing.

They have increased their surface cleaning, claim[1] that their
ventilation systems and its disinfection are already sufficient and
cite[2; only german, and without linking it] a study that found no
increased risk there.

HTH
Christian

[1]: https://www.oebb.at/en/neuigkeiten/einschraenkungen-im-bahnverkehr
[2]: https://presse.oebb.at/de/presseinformationen/20210316-studie-bahnfahren-auch-in-pandemiezeiten-sicher

-- 
To use raw power is to make yourself infinitely vulnerable to greater powers.
  -- Bene Gesserit axiom

---

From: Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:55:39 +0100

Le 14/02/2022 à 15:45, Christian Amsüss a écrit :
> ventilation systems 

Sounds as a misunderstading from their part.

Typical bus A/C is pushing the air from up  to down.  It should be 
avoided, Ithink.

(sorry I have not read the URL, and I stand corrected if I am wrong)

Alex

and its disinfection are already sufficient and

---

From: Klaus Frank <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 14:58:24 +0000

> Typical bus A/C is pushing the air from up  to down.  It should be 
But don't you want to push the exhaled air down as fast as possible, so 
that it cannot be inhaled by anyone else? Pushing it up sounds counter 
productive.
>> [2]: 
>> https://presse.oebb.at/de/presseinformationen/20210316-studie-bahnfahren-auch-in-pandemiezeiten-sicher
>>
>

---

From: Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 16:16:30 +0100

> that it cannot be inhaled by anyone else? Pushing it up sounds counter 

?

In a bus, one would want the bus ventilation syste; (various boxes) to 
push air from ground to up, and extract it from up.

Persons would still wear masks.

Alex

---

From: Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 16:20:12 +0100

> that it cannot be inhaled by anyone else? Pushing it up sounds counter 

I see what you mean. You mean that a person who exhales would like that 
air to be pushed away as fast as  possible.  True.

The way of the air could be better designed.

Alex

---

From: "Scheffenegger, Richard" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 16:30:24 +0100

> Persons would still wear masks.

I can not conjecture a reason when this would be actually beneficial.

Apart from Covid (that is, water droplets suspended in air, and
suspended in these droplets a potentially infectious number of virus
particles), there are many more resons not to push things (dust, dirt,
feces, refuse, spores...) dragged in with shoes from outside into the
bus to the height where people could breath them in more easily - before
Covid made it en-vouge to wear (proper N95 / FFP2) masks also in the west...

Since the same old rolling stock is still in operation, I am highly
sceptical that anywhere any major redesign of the air ventilation
systems has been performed in public transport cabins of any kind.

Or that the risk involved with breathing in higher concentrations of
feces, spores, dirt, dust and particulates would be a net benefit to the
public health, when air is pushed from the bottom/floor of a cabin upwards.

In short: Get boosted, wear a FFP2/N95 mask in public transport, and use
the public hand sanitizers regularly (although unless you stick your
fingers into your face right after touching a very recently
virus-contaminated surface, the hand sanitization is not that critical
for covid - but there are other reasons why that is not a bad idea ;)

Alternate means of travel with less exposure to "shared air" exist (such
as taxi/cab).

---

From: Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 16:37:16 +0100

Le 14/02/2022 à 16:30, Scheffenegger, Richard a écrit :
> bus to the height where people could breath them in more easily

fair enough.

However, it appears to me still true that some directions of air flow 
are better than others with respect to transmisibility.

If one does not want air from shoes soles to go up, and does not want 
air from mouth and nose to go horizontally, then these are already good 
requirements.

  - before
> In short: Get boosted,

It's not htat easy.

I am already boosted in December.  It wanes a few weeks after.  A second 
boost is little advised.

On Feb. 17th we'll hear more from EMA about more boosts.
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/events/ema-regular-press-briefing-covid-19-14#live-broadcast:-14:00---14:30-amsterdam-time-(cet)--section

  wear a FFP2/N95 mask in public transport, and use
> Alternate means of travel with less exposure to "shared air" exist (such

Right.

They should invent individual transportation for the long range.

Alex

---

From: Dr Eberhard W Lisse <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 20:18:24 +0200

The literature seems to indicate that train staff (ie coming into
contact with many passengers) wearing a mask, distancing, disinfecting
and boosting are not particularly affected.

Ventilation per se is more important in my view than the direction of
the airflow.

el

[...]

---

From: Alexander Mayrhofer <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 21:04:11 +0100

Hello everyone,

[yet another local]

> I haven't noticed any changes in the ventilation systems of public transport
> here, and neither Wiener Linen (in-city transport) nor ÖBB (national railway)
> advertise any such thing.

[AM] The good news is that (at least at the time of the writing)  a) FFP2 masks are mandatory in public transport and b) compliance with that rule is pretty good in Vienna (I'd say well above 99% - at least during commuting hours. It gets a bit flaky during the nighttime, obviously).

The metro is getting busier again, but even during rush hours it's not yet at pre-pandemic level. My totally non-scientific guts feeling is that restaurants and places like inddor pools are riskier than Vienna's public transport (because of the aforementioned FFP2 mask compliance there).

Best,
Alex