Subject: [113attendees] Vienna Station - Ukrainian Refugees

From: "Livingood, Jason" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 13:41:48 +0000

FWIW, noticed a recent article that the main train station is seeing an influx of refugees from Ukraine. Some news about this local situation and how people can support it if they are interested:
https://www.thelocal.at/20220314/how-vienna-is-helping-thousands-of-refugees-arriving-by-train/

Jason

PS – I will be unable to attend the meeting in person due to company travel policies (which only changed about a week ago to permit travel – and last minute international flights are quite expensive).

---

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 20:17:36 +0000 (UTC)

Richard S. informed me that the Ukranian Church (St. Barbara, Postgasse 8) is taking donations.  Picture attached.
They take in-kind and cash.   They have plenty of volunteers, apparently!   Nice to hear.
Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360 

    On Wednesday, March 16, 2022, 06:43:17 AM PDT, Livingood, Jason <jason_livingood=[email-masked]> wrote:  

 
Jason

PS – I will be unable to attend the meeting in person due to company travel policies (which only changed about a week ago to permit travel – and last minute international flights are quite expensive).
 -- 
113attendees mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/113attendees

---

From: Petr Špaček <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 09:29:19 +0100

I understand the desire to help locally where you can see it with your 
own eyes, but the help is/will be really needed in Poland and other 
countries. Not much Ukrainian people migrate to Austria.

Compare stats about number of refugees with their pre-war population:

https://data2.unhcr.org/en/situations/ukraine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population

And the winner is... Poland!
- pre-war population ~ 38.1 M
- refugees ~ 1.8 M
- refugee/population ratio ~ 4.7 %
(two days ago)

Keep in mind that this increase of population happened _withing three 
weeks_ so the pressure on services and accommodation is going to be 
enormous.

To put this in a perspective from another angle, the heavily discused 
immigration to Germany during Syrian war happened mostly over years and 
resulted in population increase about 1 % of DE population.

If you feel that this perspective is correct then please consider 
donating to some PL charities. My Polish colleagues sent me a list of 
credible charities which accept donations:

https://en.ocalenie.org.pl
http://www.pah.org.pl
https://pcpm.org.pl/en

For avoidance of doubt, I declare that I'm not Polish. My home country 
is CZ which currently stands at refugee/population ratio "only" 2.3 %.

Petr Špaček

On 16. 03. 22 21:17, [email-masked] wrote:
> Richard S. informed me that the Ukranian Church (St. Barbara, Postgasse 
> 8) is taking donations.  Picture attached.
> 
> On Wednesday, March 16, 2022, 06:43:17 AM PDT, Livingood, Jason 
> <jason_livingood=[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> 
> FWIW, noticed a recent article that the main train station is seeing an 
> influx of refugees from Ukraine. Some news about this local situation 
> and how people can support it if they are interested:
> <https://www.thelocal.at/20220314/how-vienna-is-helping-thousands-of-refugees-arriving-by-train/> 
> 
> 
> Jason
> 
> PS – I will be unable to attend the meeting in person due to company 
> travel policies (which only changed about a week ago to permit travel – 
> and last minute international flights are quite expensive).
> 
> -- 
> [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>
> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/113attendees>
> 

-- 
Petr Špaček

---

From: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 09:12:26 +0000 (UTC)

Petr,
I am top-posting because I agree with all your comments and want to thank you for making them.
You are very right as far as I know.  Poland is by far taking the most refugees.  It also (as far as I know) does not have maybe as good an infrastructure as some other countries to absorb them.   I agree with you asking people to donate to reputable Polish charities.
Having said that, the need is everywhere.  Back in the greater San Francisco Bay Area where I live, one of the non-profits I work with is co-sponsoring the resettlement of Afghan refugees.    Quite a few refugees want the United States as their permanent home.   The resettlement agencies who are tasked with the job are overwhelmed so in a few areas (SF Bay, Austin, Northern Virginia), they have asked non-profits to work with them.
Now, the influx of Ukranian children coming on their own has started.  This is what I am hearing from my friends in California.  I do not want to take this thread off-topic any more!  If anyone (in particular from the SF Bay Area) is interested in more information / or to help, I am certainly happy to tell you more.  Please contact me unicast.
And thanks again, Petr.
Thanks,Nalini
    On Thursday, March 17, 2022, 01:29:44 AM PDT, Petr Špaček <[email-masked]> wrote:  

Petr Špaček

-- 
Petr Špaček

---

From: Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 11:16:54 +0100

Le 17/03/2022 à 09:29, Petr Špaček a écrit :
> immigration to Germany during Syrian war happened mostly over years 
> and resulted in population increase about 1 % of DE population.
>
>

I agree with teh fact that this is a sudden migration, in the order of 3 
million in a matter of a few days, maybe 2 weeks.  It will  further 
grow, possibly.  The ukr migration is by car, train, whereas the Syrian 
migration is by foot mostly.

The Syrian and Afghanistan migration is probably lower in total numbers, 
and spanning a few years.  I heard once that Syrians in Turkey refugee 
camps (largest site, they claimed) were in the order of 1million.  
That's about main point about refugee negotiations were happening of 
help from Europe.

For my part, the need of help for refugees is somehow different than 
donating money.  Local money for emergency sanitary packs and food 
conserve I suspect is enough.

I think most ukr refugees want to come back, they might miss home.  
That's what should be fixed, how to help that?

At IETF there could be additional things that could be done to 
facilitate that coming back.

One example that quickly comes to mind is about web sites, protocols and 
translation that could help that.  Recently a website to find relations 
(next of kin) was launched by Ukr but what can we understand out of it?  
https://npdn.in.ua/

Can there be some protocol or some gateway that makes that more 
understandable by the social media.  Can there be some DDoS protection 
so it does not fall under attack.

Then, there are other things about Internet itself that could help to 
improve the situation.

Alex

>> Richard S. informed me that the Ukranian Church (St. Barbara, 
>> Postgasse 8) is taking donations.  Picture attached.
>>
>> FWIW, noticed a recent article that the main train station is seeing 
>> an influx of refugees from Ukraine. Some news about this local 
>> situation and how people can support it if they are interested:
>> travel policies (which only changed about a week ago to permit travel 
>> – and last minute international flights are quite expensive).
>>
>> --

---

From: Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 11:24:56 +0100

Le 17/03/2022 à 11:16, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit :
>> I understand the desire to help locally where you can see it with 
>> your own eyes, but the help is/will be really needed in Poland and 
>> other countries. Not much Ukrainian people migrate to Austria.
>>
>> For avoidance of doubt, I declare that I'm not Polish. My home 
>> country is CZ which currently stands at refugee/population ratio 
>> "only" 2.3 %.
>>
>> Petr Špaček
>
>
> I agree with teh fact that this is a sudden migration, in the order of 
> 3 million in a matter of a few days, maybe 2 weeks.  It will  further 
> grow, possibly.  The ukr migration is by car, train, whereas the 
> Syrian migration is by foot mostly.
>
> The Syrian and Afghanistan migration is probably lower in total 
> numbers, and spanning a few years.  I heard once that Syrians in 
> Turkey refugee camps (largest site, they claimed) were in the order of 
> 1million.  That's about main point about refugee negotiations were 
> happening of help from Europe.
>
> One example that quickly comes to mind is about web sites, protocols 
> and translation that could help that.  Recently a website to find 
> relations (next of kin) was launched by Ukr but what can we understand 
> out of it?  https://npdn.in.ua/
>

Also, part of refugees might want to try to stay, or to find another 
destination outside ukr - for them also there must be a means of help.

Alex

>>> travel policies (which only changed about a week ago to permit 
>>> travel – and last minute international flights are quite expensive).
>>>
>>> --

---

From: Eberhard W Lisse <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:55:08 +0200

With all due respect,

is this the right forum to discuss this, most certainly important, issue?

el

> thank you for making them.
[...]

-- 
Dr Eberhard W Lisse
Managing Director
Namibian Network Information Center (Pty) Ltd.
PO Box 8421 Bachbrecht 10007 Namibia
If this email is signed with GPG, Sect 20 Act No 4 of 2019 may apply

---

From: Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 13:23:39 +0100

> is this the right forum to discuss this, most certainly important, issue?

It can be a stretch.

Normally in such 'attendees' email list it is appropriate to discuss the 
means of travel to the meeting site.  Arrival date-times can be 
syncrhonized to share a taxi, for example. Also, one might recommend 
fast ways to move through airports using some passes that help cut 
through lines.

When discussing travel to Vienna, one might want to predict and warn 
about the next outage in the travel system, like when there is a 
worker's strike, bad weather or others.

Forecasting air travel at this time might have a question mark about the 
big empty hole above Ukraine , Rep Moldova, Moldova and S-W Russia - the 
rest of Europe is more crowded with planes because of that hole (see 
flightradar24); unplanned events might happen, like the 3 documented 
cases: 2 drones fallen outside the expected area (fall at Sarajevo and 
Dumitra) and plane and helicopter gone missing (Constanta).  These are 
very close to Europe, but still outside the region at war.  They can be 
limited or they can grow to influence other countries in Europe.

One can also discuss other things related to that.

One can also try to avoid that discussion in order not to scare people away.

If this can be taken into account for a second, then it can be relevant, 
otherwise no - it is a stretch.

Alex

---

From: Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 13:26:29 +0100

Le 17/03/2022 à 13:23, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit :
> Normally in such 'attendees' email list it is appropriate to discuss 
> the means of travel to the meeting site.  Arrival date-times can be 
> Forecasting air travel at this time might have a question mark about 
> the big empty hole above Ukraine , Rep Moldova, Moldova and S-W Russia 
> - the rest of Europe is more crowded with planes because of that hole 
> (see flightradar24); unplanned events might happen, like the 3 
> documented cases: 2 drones fallen outside the expected area (fall at 
> Sarajevo and Dumitra) and plane and helicopter gone missing 
> (Constanta).  These are very close to Europe, but still outside the 
> region at war.  They can be limited or they can grow to influence 
> other countries in Europe.

correction - Zagreb, not Sarajevo.

> If this can be taken into account for a second, then it can be 
> relevant, otherwise no - it is a stretch.
>
> Alex
>
>>
>> el
>>

---

From: Daniel Migault <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 08:36:05 -0400

According to the IETF web site I understand the discussion is appropriate.
It is a pleasant thread to read in any case.

Non-Working Group lists <https://datatracker.ietf.org/list/nonwg> are for
discussing topics that may be of interest to IETF participants but aren't
directly related to work within a Working Group or other IETF work.

Yours,
Daniel

-- 
Daniel Migault
Ericsson

---

From: Jen Linkova <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 00:12:20 +1100

I believe it is actually. More specifically, I've realized that I'm
arriving a few days in advance so I registered as a volunteer.

---

From: Nalini J Elkins <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 13:53:31 +0000 (UTC)

Good for you, Jen!
Would love to hear about your experience and thoughts.
Nalini 

Sent from Smallbiz Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Thursday, March 17, 2022, 6:12 AM, Jen Linkova <[email-masked]> wrote:

I believe it is actually. More specifically, I've realized that I'm arriving a few days in advance so I registered as a volunteer. 
On Thu, Mar 17, 2022, 9:55 PM Eberhard W Lisse <[email-masked]> wrote:

With all due respect,

el

[...]

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 22:59:40 -0700

> On Mar 17, 2022, at 3:16 AM, Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> One example that quickly comes to mind is about web sites, protocols and translation that could help that.

You mentioned a people-finder. For more general web sites (train stations, etc), https://translate.google.com/ might be useful.

---

From: Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 10:32:42 +0100

yes, thank you for the translator translate.google.com which only 
recently got Ukrainian language if I recall correctly, which is great.

That translator works ok in many current cases, but stumbles on some 
sites from Russian authorities like ministries etc: too slow, or 
outright forbidden (probably?).

Some times that translator does not pass the newly  inserted reCaptcha 
to protect against DDoS.  The site is protected from DDoS by that 
captcha (there is a huge number of DDoS right now), but that captcha 
seems to be inadvertently blocking the translation process.  In that 
case, all is left to do is copy-paste from the page to the translator.  
But copy-paste does not work with non-text; some text is some times on 
gifs or jpegs.  Were translate.google.fr to use the meetecho's mechanism 
of 'clickable URLs' maybe it could work.

Too, I would need a live translator of voice, in addition to text and 
image translators.

The people finder I know is https://npdn.in.ua/ recently launched.  But 
I heard refugees (2 kinds: those who move simply, and those who move 
Westward - total 10million is said) used extensively other social media 
to find each other such as facebooks, etc.  Yet, some attention would 
need to be paid there.  Some of these media (instagram? twitter?) are 
currently cut in Russia. Others like Telegram are allowed, but someone 
from California on BBC yesterday evening said Telegram content is on 
servers, even if the communication is encrypted; a worry was said by 
said person about server-stored content being risky, in that it can be 
hacked or simply requested by authorities.

About google: one would like to pay attention at this time since there 
is close supervision in Russia about youtube (of google) with strong 
requests from their side; the requests are public.  Hopefully that does 
not lead to cuts in case the requests are not satisfied, like other apps 
having been cut in Russia.  Also google smartphone data such as 
attendance to supermarket (very normal in peaceful times) tells a lot of 
information to Westerners (is there enough food there?) and when 
Russians realize that there might be frictions.

About other sites for Ukrainians: one would consider listening to radio 
as well, not  only Internet.  A number of radio broadcaster stations 
have been revived since the beginning of the war. BBC World Service for 
Ukraine area is the most notable.

About cuts: not only Internet is at some risk of some parts being cut, 
but GPS as well, including purposeful jamming.

About Mariopol situation: https://www.0629.com.ua/ from the written press.

Le 21/03/2022 à 06:59, Fred Baker a écrit :
>
>> On Mar 17, 2022, at 3:16 AM, Alexandre Petrescu<[email-masked]>  wrote:
>>
> You mentioned a people-finder. For more general web sites (train stations, etc),https://translate.google.com/  might be useful.

---

From: Jonathan Morton <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 11:47:06 +0200

> On 21 Mar, 2022, at 11:32 am, Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> About other sites for Ukrainians: one would consider listening to radio as well, not  only Internet.  A number of radio broadcaster stations have been revived since the beginning of the war. BBC World Service for Ukraine area is the most notable.

Indeed, here is an information page:

	https://www.radioworld.com/global/bbc-world-service-revives-shortwave-to-eastern-europe

It appears they are transmitting from southeastern Poland, using a directional antenna to extend good coverage over all of Ukraine, some of Russia, and several other nearby countries including Austria.  Ionospheric conditions may permit occasional reception at great distances.

Reception requires a shortwave radio, capable of receiving AM on 15735 kHz (1400-1600Z) or 5875 kHz (2000-2200Z).  If you don't already have one, look for a "world radio" at popular retailers, or a "shortwave scanner".

The BBC World Service can also be heard online without a radio:

	https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_world_service
	https://www.bbc.co.uk/schedules/p00fzl9p

 - Jonathan Morton

---

From: "Scheffenegger, Richard" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 10:53:17 +0100

Some trivia about that:

BBC World Service is being broadcast from the Long-Wave Groundstation
operated by ORS in Moosbrunn, about 30km away from the IETF 113 location.

Apparently, those transmitters from the cold-war era are some of the
last remaining operational stations in western europe - most other
stations got dismantled.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sender_Moosbrunn

The rotating antenna (not used for UA) has a gauge of about 70m -
jokingly the largest operational "gauge" railway (it is a single
circular heavy-duty rail).

Richard

Am 21.03.2022 um 10:32 schrieb Alexandre Petrescu:
 > About other sites for Ukrainians: one would consider listening to
radio as well, not  only Internet.  A number of radio broadcaster
stations have been revived since the beginning of the war. BBC World
Service for Ukraine area is the most notable.

---

From: Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2022 13:56:13 +0100

https://euraxess.ec.europa.eu/ukraine

EURAXESS to 'support researchers of Ukraine'

https://euraxess.ec.europa.eu/jobs/science4refugees

Le 21/03/2022 à 10:47, Jonathan Morton a écrit :
>> On 21 Mar, 2022, at 11:32 am, Alexandre Petrescu<[email-masked]>  wrote:
>>

---

From: Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 22:08:52 +0200

the frequencies changed today and I cant tune in anylonger