Subject: [68ATTENDEES] Hosts, Sponsors, Contributors, Contractors and Volunteers

From: Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 00:57:37 -0400

I want to take this brief moment to thank those who are making this 
meeting possible:

Host - NeuStar
Contributors - CZ.nic & CESNET
Sponsors - Dial Telecom
NOC Contractor - VeriLAN
Meetings Contractor - NeuStar Secretariat Services
Venue - Prague Hilton

http://www.ietf.org/meetings/68-IETF.html

And our gang of IETF Volunteers - Jim Martin, Karen O'Donoghue, Chris 
Elliott, Bill Jenson, Bill Fenner, Joel Jaeglli, Hans Kuhn

Thanks.

Ray
IAD

_______________________________________________
68ATTENDEES mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/68attendees

---

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:56:29 +0100

Yes, we would simply never be able to meet without
the supporting organizations, the local technical
community, and the volunteers. Many thanks are due.

    Brian Carpenter
    IETF Chair

---

From: "Gunter Van de Velde \(gvandeve\)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:53:44 +0100

In my opinion it is one of the best organized IETF's I've been to for a
variety of reasons.
Many thanks for selecting Prague and the Hilton as the venue location.

G/ 

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Pelletier [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 5:58 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [68ATTENDEES] Hosts, Sponsors, Contributors,Contractors and
Volunteers

Host - NeuStar
Contributors - CZ.nic & CESNET
Sponsors - Dial Telecom
NOC Contractor - VeriLAN
Meetings Contractor - NeuStar Secretariat Services Venue - Prague Hilton

Thanks.

Ray
IAD

---

From: "GOLDMAN, STUART O \(STUART\)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 03:57:22 -0500

+1

Stuart Goldman
Alcatel-Lucent 
[email-masked]
602 493 8438

-----Original Message-----
From: Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 1:54 AM
To: Ray Pelletier; [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [68ATTENDEES] Hosts, Sponsors, Contributors,Contractors and
Volunteers

G/ 

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Pelletier [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 5:58 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [68ATTENDEES] Hosts, Sponsors, Contributors,Contractors and
Volunteers

Host - NeuStar

Thanks.

Ray
IAD

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 05:04:16 -0400

+1

---

From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:11:27 +0200

I would agree. 

Two things that deserve special congratulations. The network was
operational from day one (which was Sunday for me) and worked without
problems for me until now. The hotel is much above almost all hotels we
have been in, this includes facilities, availability of food and drinks,
meeting space, power, transportation from airport, all details were well
thought and cared about. 

Just one example - because of weather problems in New York I had to
change three times the time of my arrival and transportation details,
and eventually change the arrival date less than 24 hours before my
originally intended arrival. Each time I called I could get the
concierge or reservations immediately on the line, they made all changes
without any problems and did not mention penalties. 

Thanks again. 

Dan

> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:54 AM
> Subject: RE: [68ATTENDEES] Hosts, Sponsors, 
> Contributors,Contractors and Volunteers
> 
> In my opinion it is one of the best organized IETF's I've 
> been to for a variety of reasons.
> Subject: [68ATTENDEES] Hosts, Sponsors, 
> Contributors,Contractors and Volunteers
> 
> I want to take this brief moment to thank those who are 
> making this meeting possible:
> 
> Host - NeuStar
> And our gang of IETF Volunteers - Jim Martin, Karen 
> O'Donoghue, Chris Elliott, Bill Jenson, Bill Fenner, Joel 
> Jaeglli, Hans Kuhn
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Ray
> IAD
> 
> 
>

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 02:24:08 -0700

Even I had similar situation of changing reservation 2 times due to change in travel plans and second time when I missed the flight from JFK (Thanks to Delta Airlines). I stay in Renaissance and they had been very responsive in making reservation changes and pickup taxi. They even called my international mobile, once I landed to confirm that taxi was waiting for me. 

________________________________

From: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Tue 3/20/2007 2:11 AM
To: Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve); Ray Pelletier; [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [68ATTENDEES] Hosts, Sponsors, Contributors,Contractors and Volunteers

I would agree.

Thanks again.

Dan

The information contained in this message and any attachment may be
proprietary, confidential, and privileged or subject to the work
product doctrine and thus protected from disclosure.  If the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or
agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.
If you have received this communication in error, please notify me
immediately by replying to this message and deleting it and all
copies and backups thereof.  Thank you.

---

From: "Yao Jiankang" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:23:10 +0800

RE: [68ATTENDEES] Hosts, Sponsors, Contributors,Contractors and Volunteers
We have different experience. Before coming to Prague, many told us that there are a lot thefts in the subway and public bus in prague and take care.
When I arrived at the airport and transferred to subway, in the subway, at least 6 thefts attacked us, almost robbers, taking some changes from my pocket and a wallet of my friend.  I also heard many IETF members have such terrible experice of being stolen(almost robber) in Prague.

   We never have such terrible experience before. this is the first time to us, hoping not to happen to us again.

I suggest that Public security should be considered when selecting the meeting city.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: [email-masked] 
  To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) ; Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) ; Ray Pelletier ; [email-masked] 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 5:24 PM
  Subject: RE: [68ATTENDEES] Hosts, Sponsors, Contributors,Contractors and Volunteers

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  I would agree.

  Thanks again.

  Dan

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---

From: "Yao Jiankang" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:23:12 +0800

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: [email-masked] 
  To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) ; Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) ; Ray Pelletier ; [email-masked] 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 5:24 PM
  Subject: RE: [68ATTENDEES] Hosts, Sponsors, Contributors,Contractors and Volunteers

  I would agree.

  Thanks again.

  Dan

---

From: Benoit Claise <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:40:51 +0100

Dear all,

I see all kind of complaints (security, smoking/non smoking, cakes 
with/without nuts, expensive cabs, expensive beers, etc...) over this IETF.
So I'm wondering whether this new <[email-masked]> mailing list 
doesn't help proliferating mainly the bad news. We surely had the same 
type of problems in the previous IETF but were un-noticed by the vast 
majority of the attendees.
Personally, I like this location and this IETF, for the reasons 
mentioned in the below

Regards, Benoit.
>  
> We have different experience. Before coming to Prague, many told us 
> that there are a lot thefts in the subway and public bus in prague and 
> take care.
> When I arrived at the airport and transferred to subway, in the 
> subway, at least 6 thefts attacked us, almost robbers, taking some 
> changes from my pocket and a wallet of my friend.  I also heard many 
> IETF members have such terrible experice of being stolen(almost 
> robber) in Prague.
>  
>    We never have such terrible experience before. this is the first 
> time to us, hoping not to happen to us again.
>  
>     *From:* [email-masked]
>     <mailto:[email-masked]>
>     *To:* Romascanu, Dan (Dan) <mailto:[email-masked]> ; Gunter
>     Van de Velde (gvandeve) <mailto:[email-masked]> ; Ray
>     Pelletier <mailto:[email-masked]> ; [email-masked]
>     <mailto:[email-masked]>
>     *Sent:* Tuesday, March 20, 2007 5:24 PM
>     *Subject:* RE: [68ATTENDEES] Hosts, Sponsors,
>     Even I had similar situation of changing reservation 2 times due
>     to change in travel plans and second time when I missed the flight
>     from JFK (Thanks to Delta Airlines). I stay in Renaissance and
>     they had been very responsive in making reservation changes and
>     pickup taxi. They even called my international mobile, once I
>     landed to confirm that taxi was waiting for me.
>      
>      
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From:* Romascanu, Dan (Dan) [mailto:[email-masked]]
>     *Sent:* Tue 3/20/2007 2:11 AM
>     *To:* Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve); Ray Pelletier;
>     [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>
>     *Subject:* RE: [68ATTENDEES] Hosts, Sponsors,
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

---

From: Marc Blanchet <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:43:24 +0100

Le 07-03-20 à 11:40, Benoit Claise a écrit :

> So I'm wondering whether this new <[email-masked]> mailing  
> list doesn't help proliferating mainly the bad news. We surely had  
> the same type of problems in the previous IETF but were un-noticed  
> by the vast majority of the attendees.
> Personally, I like this location and this IETF,

+1 here.  Just great place.

I'm impressed how the hilton personal clear up rooms at the minute  
the meetings are finished. Yet to see this in North America...

Marc.

---

From: "Victor M. Grado" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:47:22 -0400

Unfortunately, that consideration would leave out a lot of places. One
always have to take security measures anywhere in this time and age.

 I would not like end up running these meetings over Webex

regards,

- Victor

On 3/20/07, Yao Jiankang <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
>
> We have different experience. Before coming to Prague, many told us that
> there are a lot thefts in the subway and public bus in prague and take care.
> When I arrived at the airport and transferred to subway, in the subway, at
> least 6 thefts attacked us, almost robbers, taking some changes from my
> pocket and a wallet of my friend.  I also heard many IETF members have such
> terrible experice of being stolen(almost robber) in Prague.
>
> *To:* Romascanu, Dan (Dan) <[email-masked]> ; Gunter Van de Velde
> (gvandeve) <[email-masked]> ; Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]> ;
> [email-masked]
> *Subject:* RE: [68ATTENDEES] Hosts, Sponsors, Contributors,Contractors and
> Volunteers
>
>
>  Even I had similar situation of changing reservation 2 times due to
> change in travel plans and second time when I missed the flight from JFK
> (Thanks to Delta Airlines). I stay in Renaissance and they had been very
> responsive in making reservation changes and pickup taxi. They even called
> my international mobile, once I landed to confirm that taxi was waiting for
> me.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *To:* Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve); Ray Pelletier; [email-masked]
> *Subject:* RE: [68ATTENDEES] Hosts, Sponsors, Contributors,Contractors and
> Volunteers
>
>
>
> I would agree.
>
> > From: Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) [ mailto:[email-masked]<[email-masked]>
> ]
> > From: Ray Pelletier [ mailto:[email-masked] <[email-masked]>]
>  ------------------------------
>

---

From: "M.T. Carrasco Benitez" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:49:36 +0100

+1

---

From: "M.T. Carrasco Benitez" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:58:01 +0100

It is an awful experience, though most are (aggressive?) pick- 
pockets. No consolation, but in the USA these people use guns and  
under "security consideration" most of the USA would be disqualified.

T.

On 20 Mar 2007, at 11:23, Yao Jiankang wrote:

> that there are a lot thefts in the subway and public bus in prague  
> and take care.
> changes from my pocket and a wallet of my friend.  I also heard  
> many IETF members have such terrible experice of being stolen 
> (almost robber) in Prague.
>

---

From: Janet P Gunn <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:05:41 -0400

Only place I have been held up at gun point was Washington DC.

I would prefer to deal with pickpockets.

I travelled on the local train system extensively on Saturday, including 
almost an hour waiting in the main train station, and almost an hour in 
the poorly lit station at the other end, with no problems.

Janet

"M.T. Carrasco Benitez" <[email-masked]> wrote on 03/20/2007

---

From: Andrew Johnson <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:09:15 +0000

> under "security consideration" most of the USA would be disqualified.
                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

+1 :)

---

From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:10:39 -0500

This sounds a bit paranoic. If you know you can be easily spotted by
locals as being a foreigner, protect yourself accordingly. The subway is
not the only transporation means, take for e.g. the hotel's taxi.
 
I've been travelling myself to tens of countries, did I ever get robbed,
threatened and cheated ever? Yes, but only in SouthEast Asia and China.
Why? Because I could be spotted out easily as being a turist and I did
not protect myself. Would I still go back to those countries? I wouldn't
mind ...
 
I think there is nothing wrong with this city. It's one of the nicest
places I've ever got to travel with IETF to.

From: ext Yao Jiankang [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 3:23 AM
To: [email-masked]; Romascanu, Dan (Dan); Gunter Van
de Velde (gvandeve); Ray Pelletier; [email-masked]
Subject: Re:Public security should be considered when selecting the
meetingsite [68ATTENDEES] Hosts, Sponsors, Contributors,Contractors and
Volunteers

We have different experience. Before coming to Prague, many told us that
there are a lot thefts in the subway and public bus in prague and take
care.
When I arrived at the airport and transferred to subway, in the subway,
at least 6 thefts attacked us, almost robbers, taking some changes from
my pocket and a wallet of my friend.  I also heard many IETF members
have such terrible experice of being stolen(almost robber) in Prague.
 
   We never have such terrible experience before. this is the first time
to us, hoping not to happen to us again.
 
I suggest that Public security should be considered when selecting the
meeting city.

	----- Original Message ----- 
	From: [email-masked] 
	To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) <mailto:[email-masked]>  ; Gunter
Van de Velde (gvandeve) <mailto:[email-masked]>  ; Ray Pelletier
<mailto:[email-masked]>  ; [email-masked] 
	Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 5:24 PM
	Subject: RE: [68ATTENDEES] Hosts, Sponsors,
Contributors,Contractors and Volunteers

	Even I had similar situation of changing reservation 2 times due
to change in travel plans and second time when I missed the flight from
JFK (Thanks to Delta Airlines). I stay in Renaissance and they had been
very responsive in making reservation changes and pickup taxi. They even
called my international mobile, once I landed to confirm that taxi was
waiting for me. 

	To: Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve); Ray Pelletier;

	I would agree.
	
	Two things that deserve special congratulations. The network was
	operational from day one (which was Sunday for me) and worked
without
	problems for me until now. The hotel is much above almost all
hotels we
	have been in, this includes facilities, availability of food and
drinks,
	meeting space, power, transportation from airport, all details
were well
	thought and cared about.
	
	Just one example - because of weather problems in New York I had
to
	change three times the time of my arrival and transportation
details,
	and eventually change the arrival date less than 24 hours before
my
	originally intended arrival. Each time I called I could get the
	concierge or reservations immediately on the line, they made all
changes
	without any problems and did not mention penalties.
	
	Thanks again.
	
	Dan

	

	The information contained in this message and any attachment may
be
	proprietary, confidential, and privileged or subject to the work
	product doctrine and thus protected from disclosure.  If the
reader
	of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or
	agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended
	recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
	distribution or copying of this communication is strictly
prohibited.
	If you have received this communication in error, please notify
me
	immediately by replying to this message and deleting it and all
	copies and backups thereof.  Thank you.

---

From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:08:17 +0100

> I suggest that Public security should be considered when selecting the 

Name someplace that has a large enough hotel and enough flights all over 
the world, but no no pickpockets, grasping taxi drivers, visa hurdles, 
obnoxious smokers, xenophobic waiters, shocking prices or other 
problems.

Prague is okay. Some people's pockets have been picked, some people 
overcharged. Isn't that about average for a major tourist destination 
like Prague?

Arnt

---

From: Janet P Gunn <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:33:23 -0400

I like the fact that you have the choice of
-Eating in the hotel at Hilton prices.
-Walking a block and a half to a small supermarket
-Walking a few blocks to a variety of restuarants in different price 
ranges.

MANY of the North American sites do not provide all those options.

Janet

---

From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 05:30:26 -0700

At 11:40 AM +0100 3/20/07, Benoit Claise wrote:

>  So I'm wondering whether this new 
> <mailto:[email-masked]><[email-masked]> mailing list 
> doesn't help proliferating mainly the bad news. We surely had the 
> same type of problems in the previous IETF but were un-noticed by 
> the vast majority of the attendees.

This list has also shown widespread delight with some aspects of this 
IETF, such as the food service at the reception.  One person 
complained about it, but then everyone else replied with how terrific 
it was, one of the best ever, etc.

You can take the tales about subway thefts two ways: as mere 
complaints, or as cautionary tales.  The latter seems helpful, to 
reduce the number of people affected.

The complaints about smoking has shown that this is a serious problem 
for many people, and the hotel seems to be making at least some 
efforts to help: there are now small no smoking signs over top of 
some of the smoking stickers on some tables.  (One area still 
designated as smoking is directly in front of the non-smoking 
restaurant Czech House -- switching this area to non-smoking would 
help the restaurant environment considerably.)

The nuts and cookies thread was likewise about a health concern, and 
seems, from the thread, to have been happily resolved.

So, I think, on balance, this list has been helpful.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
There are two ways to write error-free programs;
only the third one works.

---

From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:35:21 +0100

On Tue, Mar 20, 2007 at 11:40:51AM +0100,
 Benoit Claise <[email-masked]> wrote 
 a message of 414 lines which said:

> list doesn't help proliferating mainly the bad news.

It makes sense: imagine every IETFer who arrived safely to his hotel
reporting on the list "I had no problems" :-) You report only the bad
news, specially if they can be useful for others (avoid that
restaurant, beware of the subway if you are handicapped by your
luggage, etc).

This is a common effect with the medias. In the Middle Age, a group of
soldiers could destroy an entire village and kill all the inhabitants
without the people 50 km away noticing it. Now, it would be front news
for CNN. This certainly contributes to a false perception of the
danger (Schneier mentions this issue in his book "Secrets and lies")
but what do you suggest? That we shut up? Or that people who are happy
spend more time reporting it instead of just sitting and enjoying the
beer?

---

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:39:54 +0100

> I suggest that Public security should be considered when selecting  

In Hawaii for OMA, I had the lock punched out on my rental car (even  
though they weren't locked) and would have been stolen from had I  
left anything in it -- apparently, this happens to ever third person  
in a rental car, and I didn't know. I live in a suburb of Dallas, and  
was afraid to go out on the street near the hotel during the Dallas  
IETF. Of course, the people who live in that area don't seem all that  
worried. I'm also a little afraid to go to China, because I fear I  
might say something offensive to the government and be thrown in  
prison. Every place has its hazards, and it's very hard to evaluate  
the risks when they're in an environment outside your culture. We  
expect problems that aren't real (the odds are good I would not be  
arrested in China, even though I worry about it), and are unable to  
recognize or respond appropriately when real threats occur (like  
spotting a pack of thieves working a train station). This property  
makes it very, very hard to pick a location that satisfies the public  
security property for all attendees.

So far, I've felt quite safe in Prague. I also felt safe in Paris,  
though in both places I've been worried enough about pickpockets to  
take precautions. In my home city, I didn't feel safe.

There may be another issue here. So far, all the reports I've heard  
about crimes more aggressive than pocket-picking here in Prague have  
involved victims from countries in Asia who I presume are visually  
distinct from the the majority of locals. It may be that there's a  
pattern here (such as thieves picking their targets). If there is,  
there may be steps that we as a community can take (like walking  
around in mixed groups, getting some of the locals to volunteer as  
chaperones, etc.) that could help.

--
Dean

---

From: "Tobias Gondrom" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:41:48 +0100

At first I want to say, that I feel very sorry for Yao Jiankang. A
robbery and theft is always a very bad experience - and especially makes
myself very angry. 

Although Prague is not one of the most secure locations in the world, we
should not forget that depending on the perspective, this is also true
for many US cities as well. And we never even thought about stopping
IETF meetings in the US. ;-) 
(Even with all the visa hurdles and violation of personal rights of
guests who need to visit the US, that have arisen in the past few
years.)

Just my 5cents, 
Tobias

Ps.: But there is one thing we could do with the power of such a big
conference as the IETF: the IETF chair could file a comment to the major
of Prague (either directly or via Hilton Prague) that several of our
members are not satisfied and experienced the city as not friendly to
tourists. (e.g. theft, taxi rip-offs, ...)
(And in fact I even believe, it might even be our responsibility to do
this to improve local conditions.)

> From: Andrew Johnson [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 12:09 PM
> To: M.T. Carrasco Benitez
> Cc: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: Public security should be considered when selecting
> themeeting site [68ATTENDEES] Hosts, Sponsors,
Contributors,Contractors
> and Volunteers

---

From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:45:39 +0100

On Tue, Mar 20, 2007 at 06:23:12PM +0800,
 Yao Jiankang <[email-masked]> wrote 

> I suggest that Public security should be considered when selecting

The list is already very long and the IETF has not the bargaining
power to obtain what it wants ("Clear the Hilton of all smoking areas
during one week").

There is also a technical problem: to seriously consider public
security would require access to reliable statistics (saying that "I
took the subway and had no problem" is useless, for instance). In most
(all?) countries, these statistics do not exist or are not detailed
enough (we had a meeting in Washington two years ago, a city with a
very high crime rate, but concentrated in some places of the city) or
are mangled for politician reasons.

---

From: Ben Campbell <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:52:15 +0100

Along that lines, I did not notice any of the people who experienced  
criminal behavior saying if they had notified the authorities. I am  
curious about this for two reasons:

1) If you didn't, then you aren't helping things get better.

2) If you did, then your experience with the police is probably more  
telling about the safety of the city than your experience with the  
criminals. I expect criminal behavior anywhere, but a city whose  
police force handles reports badly is much more concerning to me than  
a city where the police handles them well.

It's not that I expect any police force to do much to recover  
property, but they can at least allocate more forces in the problem  
areas.

---

From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:52:35 +0100

On Tue, Mar 20, 2007 at 01:39:54PM +0100,
 Dean Willis <[email-masked]> wrote 
 a message of 57 lines which said:

> So far, all the reports I've heard about crimes more aggressive than
> pocket-picking here in Prague have involved victims from countries
> in Asia who I presume are visually distinct from the the majority of
> locals.

No, this is not true and I believe I as the first one to report on
this list.

Physically, I could be Czech but, of course, it is not too difficult
to spot a tourist when it has a big bag and looks his way on a map :-)

---

From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:58:50 -0500

With all my regrets to the victims, I think the first and most important
precaution to be taken is to purchase and validate the subway ticket.
This place is certainly not Finland, where you can get away with not
having a valid ticket by simply saying you didn't know you need to buy
one as you are a foreigner ...

The controllers may get mad at you when they catch you without valid
ticket and you are not willing to pay the pricey fine. They might use
brute force to get the price of the fine out of you.

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Dean Willis [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 5:40 AM
To: Yao Jiankang
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Public security should be considered when selecting the

> IETF members have such terrible experice of being stolen (almost 
> robber) in Prague.
>

In Hawaii for OMA, I had the lock punched out on my rental car (even
though they weren't locked) and would have been stolen from had I left
anything in it -- apparently, this happens to ever third person in a
rental car, and I didn't know. I live in a suburb of Dallas, and was
afraid to go out on the street near the hotel during the Dallas IETF. Of
course, the people who live in that area don't seem all that worried.
I'm also a little afraid to go to China, because I fear I might say
something offensive to the government and be thrown in prison. Every
place has its hazards, and it's very hard to evaluate the risks when
they're in an environment outside your culture. We expect problems that
aren't real (the odds are good I would not be arrested in China, even
though I worry about it), and are unable to recognize or respond
appropriately when real threats occur (like spotting a pack of thieves
working a train station). This property makes it very, very hard to pick
a location that satisfies the public security property for all
attendees.

So far, I've felt quite safe in Prague. I also felt safe in Paris,
though in both places I've been worried enough about pickpockets to take
precautions. In my home city, I didn't feel safe.

There may be another issue here. So far, all the reports I've heard
about crimes more aggressive than pocket-picking here in Prague have
involved victims from countries in Asia who I presume are visually
distinct from the the majority of locals. It may be that there's a
pattern here (such as thieves picking their targets). If there is, there
may be steps that we as a community can take (like walking around in
mixed groups, getting some of the locals to volunteer as chaperones,
etc.) that could help.

--
Dean

---

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:06:22 +0100

I just want to add that of course it is highly regrettable that such
incidents occur, but indeed the risk exists almost everywhere.
But I agree that it something to be considered in future.

    Brian

On 2007-03-20 11:58, M.T. Carrasco Benitez wrote:
> It is an awful experience, though most are (aggressive?) pick-pockets. 
> No consolation, but in the USA these people use guns and under "security 
> consideration" most of the USA would be disqualified.
> 
> T.
>

---

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:09:33 +0100

> to spot a tourist when it has a big bag and looks his way on a map :-)

Well, that complicates things. I'm out of "good" ideas.

Be careful out there, kids.

--
Dean

---

From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:18:16 +0100

> Well, that complicates things. I'm out of "good" ideas.

One doesn't actually have to carry a wallet. A visa card and some bills 
fit in a business card case. It's difficult to spot which pocket 
contains such a small target.

Arnt

---

From: "T.J. Kniveton" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:16:37 -0700

> incidents occur, but indeed the risk exists almost everywhere. 
Sorry, I just can't agree with the apologists on this list minimizing 
what we've been seeing here in Prague. The incidence of pickpockets, the 
brazenness of the crimes, and the near or threatened (or realized) 
violence to various members of the IETF that have been reported or I've 
heard second-hand are much higher than any IETF I've been to anywhere in 
the world since I started attending ten years ago. It's pretty glaring 
to me. I heard multiple reports of people's wallets being picked, even 
by Sunday evening before the start of the week.

Although our group is large, obviously anecdotal reports do not a crime 
statistics report make. Nevertheless, it's quite obvious to me, at 
least, that there is a serious problem with tourists such as us being 
targeted in an organized way that is yet uncontrolled by authorities.

This has led to significant personal loss and inconvenience for some 
attendees, for whom I feel sorry that they have to take a significant 
amount of time and emotional energy out of the IETF to deal with being 
victimized by crime. I feel sorry for them and slightly offended by some 
of the people who have implied that they are responsible in some way for 
the crime, or they are part of the problem if they do not talk to the 
authorities and improve their surroundings. (As far as I know everyone 
has reported the crimes.)

Personally, I am enjoying Prague, and deal with the environment by being 
aware of my surroundings (which I try to always do). I don't feel like 
it's an exceptionally dangerous place, though I have noticed a fair 
share of shady characters in my wanderings through the central parts of 
town so far. I do agree with the suggestion that the collective 
experiences of IETFers be collected by the organizers and given as 
feedback to the authorities, who could use it for positive change. This 
*is* a large enough group to be able to give good feedback and assist in 
making the city better.

TJ

---

From: Janet P Gunn <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:28:13 -0400

"T.J. Kniveton" <[email-masked]> wrote on 03/20/2007 11:16:37 AM:
>...The incidence of pickpockets, the 

> to me. 

Increased incidence? or just increased reporting/communication?

The "attendees" list has only been around/in common use for a short time.

Janet

---

From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:32:47 +0200

>From: ext Arnt Gulbrandsen [mailto:[email-masked]] 
>Sent: 20 March, 2007 15:18
>To: [email-masked]
>Subject: Re: Public security should be considered when 
>selecting the meetingsite [68ATTENDEES] Hosts, Sponsors, 
>One doesn't actually have to carry a wallet. A visa card and 
>some bills fit in a business card case. It's difficult to spot 
>which pocket contains such a small target.
>
There Nordic way to tackle this would be of course to disallow crime and
then nobody can do it any more ;-)

But if a suggestion from the dark side is acceptable, you could just
throw away the paper map, carry your GPS equipped phone where it stays
safe, and receive the directions to your BT headset. 

No maps needed, and staying connected all the time, so it solves two
burning issues on this list :-)

Hannu

---

From: "GOLDMAN, STUART O \(STUART\)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:34:32 -0500

Folks,

In either case, I have found the sharing of information and warnings to
be quite useful and would encourage the continued use of the list in the
future for such sharing. I especially appreciated the early warnings
about transit at Heathrow (1 bag) and booking a taxi through the Hilton.

Stuart Goldman

Alcatel-Lucent 

602 493 8438

From: Janet P Gunn [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 8:28 AM
To: T.J. Kniveton
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Public security should be considered when selecting
themeeting site [68ATTENDEES] Hosts, Sponsors, Contributors, Contractors
and Volunteers

The "attendees" list has only been around/in common use for a short
time. 

Janet

---

From: "T.J. Kniveton" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:37:27 -0700

> The "attendees" list has only been around/in common use for a short time.
I am not basing my comments solely on this mailing list, but also 
personal conversations with other attendees, which I have at every 
meeting. Of course you're right, increased communication will point 
things out more easily.

I'm not sure how to gather more precise and accurate information -- 
maybe someone should ask during the plenary for everyone who knows 
someone who was robbed (i.e. pickpocketed) or had crime perpetrated or 
nearly committed, or threatened on them at this meeting to stand up. And 
then ask the same question for the previous few IETFs.

However, IME these stories tend to "travel around," and I have heard 
many more incidents of robbery or attempted robbery happening here than 
anywhere else. Like I said, even by Sunday evening. YMMV.

TJ

---

From: Ben Campbell <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:44:59 +0100

> The "attendees" list has only been around/in common use for a short  

People still posted things to the IETF general list. I think all the  
attendee list did was move that traffic off the main list.

---

From: "Victor M. Grado" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:51:28 -0400

My only incident in Prague was in the past, not involving IETF, so I guess
that would not count.

  I think there has been some "profiling" employed by thieves. Diversity of
the host city may be should be taken into account. But that would exclude
lots of places too.

  The extreme measure is to have everything prearranged, prepaid, no need to
carry any money...and put mousetraps in your pockets  :-)

  - Victor

On 3/20/07, T.J. Kniveton <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
> Janet P Gunn wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "T.J. Kniveton" < [email-masked]> wrote on 03/20/2007 11:16:37 AM:

---

From: "M.T. Carrasco Benitez" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:53:17 +0100

No apologist: this kind of experience is very disturbing for the  
victims. Stating the obvious, the pickpockets are guilty; the victims  
are victims. Security must be taken into account and meetings must  
not be organized in dangerous places, though there are pickpockets in  
many large cities and they are less dangerous that muggers with gun.

The IETF MUST formally complain to the local authorities and also  
inform appropriate stake-holders such as the Hilton that a few dozen  
people could really hit the bottom line.

T.

On 20 Mar 2007, at 16:16, T.J. Kniveton wrote:

> Sorry, I just can't agree with the apologists on this list  
> minimizing what we've been seeing here in Prague. The incidence of  
> pickpockets, the brazenness of the crimes, and the near or  
> threatened (or realized) violence to various members of the IETF  
> that have been reported or I've heard second-hand are much higher  
> than any IETF I've been to anywhere in the world since I started  
> attending ten years ago. It's pretty glaring to me. I heard  
> multiple reports of people's wallets being picked, even by Sunday  
> evening before the start of the week.
>
> Although our group is large, obviously anecdotal reports do not a  
> crime statistics report make. Nevertheless, it's quite obvious to  
> me, at least, that there is a serious problem with tourists such as  
> us being targeted in an organized way that is yet uncontrolled by  
> authorities.
>
> This has led to significant personal loss and inconvenience for  
> some attendees, for whom I feel sorry that they have to take a  
> significant amount of time and emotional energy out of the IETF to  
> deal with being victimized by crime. I feel sorry for them and  
> slightly offended by some of the people who have implied that they  
> are responsible in some way for the crime, or they are part of the  
> problem if they do not talk to the authorities and improve their  
> surroundings. (As far as I know everyone has reported the crimes.)
>
> Personally, I am enjoying Prague, and deal with the environment by  
> being aware of my surroundings (which I try to always do). I don't  
> feel like it's an exceptionally dangerous place, though I have  
> noticed a fair share of shady characters in my wanderings through  
> the central parts of town so far. I do agree with the suggestion  
> that the collective experiences of IETFers be collected by the  
> organizers and given as feedback to the authorities, who could use  
> it for positive change. This *is* a large enough group to be able  
> to give good feedback and assist in making the city better.
>
> TJ
>

---

From: "Eric Gray \(LO/EUS\)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:02:41 -0500

My one-time experience with reporting a theft to the local police 
(many years ago) was very positive.  One thing that we need to
recall as a group is that the local population often/usually will
want us to come again (and spend more money) and invite others 
to do the same (especially the part about spending money).  As a
result, the city is often motivated to prevent us from having a
"bad experience" during our visit - AND - particularly in cities
that are not hugely over-populated, the local police may be able
to either go directly to the people who have your stuff or put
the word out that the incident might be ignored if the goods are
to magically re-appear.

So, by all means - if you lose something and you're sure it was
taken - report it to the police.  But be sure...

--
Eric Gray

> From: Ben Campbell [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 8:52 AM
> To: [email-masked]
> selecting themeetingsite [68ATTENDEES] Hosts, Sponsors, 
> Importance: Low
> >>>> I suggest that Public security should be considered when 
> selecting
> >>>> the meeting city.
> >>>
> >>>

---

From: Nemeth Krisztian <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 16:46:05 +0100 (CET)

Hi,

I'm not a frequent traveller, so I don't know just how usual the below 
story is, but it's strange for me.

Today I've moved to an other room so checked out (in Hilton). I've 
reserved the room rate in Euros, the've confirmed it in Euros, also the 
invoice has a place, where it's written in Euros (though the bill itself 
is in Ck). I also payed in Euros (cash). The strange thing is, they 
charged about 3-4% more, although their Euro/Ck rate hasn't changed since 
the checkin. They said it's because of the conversion. I find it rather 
strange. Is this usual?

Thanks,
Krisztian

---

From: Luigi Iannone <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:24:19 +0100

Usually hotel charge a commision when you ask to change money.
EVen if strange, may be Hilton does the same when converting your bill.

Luigi

Le 20-mars-07 à 16:46, Nemeth Krisztian a écrit :

> Hi,
>
> I'm not a frequent traveller, so I don't know just how usual the  
> below story is, but it's strange for me.
>
> reserved the room rate in Euros, the've confirmed it in Euros, also  
> the invoice has a place, where it's written in Euros (though the  
> bill itself is in Ck). I also payed in Euros (cash). The strange  
> thing is, they charged about 3-4% more, although their Euro/Ck rate  
> hasn't changed since the checkin. They said it's because of the  
> conversion. I find it rather strange. Is this usual?
>
> Thanks,
> Krisztian
>

---

From: "Michal Krsek" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:27:19 +0100

Locally it is usual not only in Hilton.

If you are paying in euros in cash, you'll get somehow worse rate than in 
the bank.

            MK

---

From: "Schliesser, Benson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:27:50 -0500

My reservation was in CZK, with a Euro estimate. I would expect, then,
that the conversion happens at check-out time (I.e. the bill will be in
CZK, not in Euros, until I check out). In my experience when anybody (my
bank card, credit cards, hotels, etc) does this conversion they claim
about 3% above the conversion rate. So your experience isn't surprising
to me.

On the other hand, if your case is different from mine, and they
actually confirmed a rate in Euros with no fine-print on the topic, then
you could probably ask the hotel manager to adjust your bill
accordingly.

-Benson

PS - One thing to avoid (which I've experienced before) is a double-fee;
the hotel converts CZK to Euros claiming 3%, then your credit card
converts Euros to Dollars claiming another 3%... It's better to have the
local currency or your home currency charged to your card and avoid
third currencies when possible.

> From: Nemeth Krisztian [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 4:46 PM
> To: [email-masked]

---

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:46:52 +0100

> by Sunday evening before the start of the week.

Then perhaps you weren't in Paris?

---

From: "Thomas Walsh" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:06:28 -0400

Or Vienna in 2003. A number of pickpocket incidents (including me)
particularly on the subway.

---

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:04:58 +0100

> The "attendees" list has only been around/in common use for a short  

Right. There were a LOT of incidents in Paris, including at least one  
severe assault, that I didn't hear about for months. I'm sure there  
were many more that I never heard about.

--
Dean

---

From: "Thomas Walsh" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:11:14 -0400

These type of incidents unfortunately are not at all uncommon.  It
happens a lot to delegates at the ITU-T in Geneva (one of Europe's safer
cities).  The best protection is to be on guard at all times around
train, plane and subway stations.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Willis [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 6:05 PM
To: Janet P Gunn
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Public security should be considered when selecting
themeeting site [68ATTENDEES] Hosts, Sponsors, Contributors,Contractors
and Volunteers

--
Dean

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:28:34 +0100

> evening before the start of the week.

I personally have had regrettable incidents like this in Budapest,  
Beijing, Washington DC, Long Beach, San Francisco, and Santa Clara  
(the last two being the same incident - someone broke into my parked  
car at Fisherman's Wharf, grabbed the keys and registration that my  
wife had put into the glove compartment, and robbed my home in Santa  
Clara).

I'm not an apologist for Prague or anywhere else. We live in a world  
populated by people who sometimes commit criminal acts.

I need to tell you that I have also had very wonderful incidents.  
Once in Minneapolis I had a flat tire when the temperature was  
seriously below zero. The tire had frozen with one slightly flat side  
(if you haven't experienced cold that will do that, consider yourself  
blessed). As I drove to the freeway, I could hear and feel the tire  
slapping the pavement. I expected it to warm from friction and return  
to its normal status. What happened, though, was that the tire  
shattered - I wound up with the rim, the tread, and nothing in  
between. I pulled over to change the tire, and someone else stopped  
to help. He basically took the tools out of my hand and changed my  
tire while I rolled the spare to him and carried the rim to the  
trunk. While we did that, two other people (one a policeman) stopped  
and asked if I was OK. I suspect I could have handled the situation  
myself, but people around me stopped and made sure I survived the  
bitter cold. I appreciated their concern and their help.

It's not about 'we', 'they', 'my town', or 'their town'. As  
regrettable as the incident is - and it is - it happens everywhere.  
Picking a different town isn't going to significantly change the  
possibility that it might happen.

With all due respect, I think we need to give our hosts the credit  
they deserve. They have a beautiful city, and they have worked hard  
to welcome us to it. We have had some experiences I am very sure they  
didn't intend any more than we enjoyed them.

We're adults. Let's deal with it and move on.

---

From: Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:30:02 -0400

While not uncommon elsewhere it is true that here like elsewhere it has 
become an industry almost ignored by the local enforcement authorities.  
Perhaps it is also true that the incidents here are not any greater in 
type or degree than incidents elsewhere.  I was the target of a 
pickpocket attempt on a bus in Rome. 

However, it is not acceptable and I informed the hotel last evening that 
it would suffer from the practice and that they had an obligation to 
exert pressure on local authorities to step up law enforcement, else we 
and others would not come back no matter how great a facility the venue 
was. 

I will be following up my comments with a letter to the hotel and to 
Hilton International.  I would appreciate details of incidents, when, 
where and what, brought to my attention at [email-masked].  I regret the 
incidents.  We will consider security more heavily in future venue 
selections and provide more info to attendees.

The IETF meeting generates about $2 million USD in money to the local 
economy.  We will take it elsewhere when appropriate.
Ray
IAD

Thomas Walsh wrote:

>>>violence to various members of the IETF that have been reported  
>>>      
>>>
>>or I've
>>    
>>
>>>heard second-hand are much higher than any IETF I've been to  
>>>      
>>>
>>anywhere in
>>    
>>
>>>the world since I started attending ten years ago. It's pretty  
>>>      
>>>
>>glaring
>>    
>>
>>>to me.
>>>      
>>>

---

From: Luca Martini <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:02:01 -0600

M.T. Carrasco Benitez wrote:
> No consolation, but in the USA these people use guns and under 
> "security consideration" most of the USA would be disqualified.
>
Although we could certainly choose better presidents ;-) and stop waging 
war to other nations, there are few places in the USA where a hotel 
needs this much security !
it is a pretty good indication that there is a serious problem here.

Luca

---

From: "Clint Chaplin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:15:03 -0700

Whats even worse is that some credit cards will charge you a foreign
transaction fee even if the charge is in your own currency!  If a
place offers to charge your card in your own currency, decline; their
conversion rate is usually really bad, and the credit card company may
end up charging you anyway.  Just charge in local currency, and let
the card company do what they're going to do anyway.

-- 
Clint (JOATMON) Chaplin
Principal Engineer
Corporate Standardization (US)
SISA

---

From: Henning Schulzrinne <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:17:55 -0400

It seems well-known that property crime rates in many European  
countries exceed those in the US, while violent crime has the  
opposite characteristic. Whether the incidence of property crimes has  
to do with a more cash-based economy in Europe (people tend to carry  
the equivalent of hundreds of dollars of cash on them when shopping),  
more of a market for EU passports, porous borders to much poorer  
countries east and the relative efficiency of pawning electronics I  
don't know.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/ 
000/000/001/266umtwb.asp

(not exactly an unbiased source, but it makes statistical points)

Other links, courtesy of Google:

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/8Comparison.htm
http://www.reform.co.uk/website/crime/ 
criminaljusticesystemperformance/internationalcomparisons.aspx

> Although we could certainly choose better presidents ;-) and stop  
> waging war to other nations, there are few places in the USA where  
> a hotel needs this much security !

---

From: "Clint Chaplin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:22:49 -0700

Doesn't matter.  Pickpocketing is a crime of opportunity; they'll grab
the first thing they touch.  Only later do they figure out if they got
anything valuable.

I heard of one person who left a hotel to get to some place with a pen
in their front pocket (cheap ballpoint).  Once they got to their
destination, the pen was gone.

Just about every tourist book I've read on Prague warns you of the
professional pickpockets.  One commented that they are professionals;
if they want it, they'll get it.  Also, one mentioned that there is
very little violent crime in Prague; it's all pickpocketing, and petty
fraud (incorrect bills, taxis going in circles, etc.)

---

From: "Steve Chen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:50:46 -0400

Mr Martini is right. Except, of course, Boston, NYC, Washington DC, Atlanta,
Miami and a few west coast cities.

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: Luca Martini [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 1:02 PM
To: M.T. Carrasco Benitez
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Public security should be considered when selecting the

Luca

---

From: Iljitsch van Beijnum <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 20:59:43 +0100

On 20-mrt-2007, at 18:04, Dean Willis wrote:

> Right. There were a LOT of incidents in Paris, including at least  
> one severe assault, that I didn't hear about for months. I'm sure  
> there were many more that I never heard about.

Could it be that the number of incidents has some correlation with  
the exploration-friendliness of the city? I.e., more IETF'ers will  
roam around Paris or Prague than Minneapolis.

---

From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 22:54:30 +0100

On Tue, Mar 20, 2007 at 01:30:02PM -0400,
 Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]> wrote 
 a message of 244 lines which said:

> Hilton International.

I strongly support the idea and may be a copy to the city authorities
would be a good idea, too?

I prefer that, in IETF style, we spend time discussing what practical
and realistic things (like this letter) we can do, rather than trying
to evaluate wether Prague is worse than Paris or Washington or
engaging in philosophical discussions on the dangers of life.

> We will consider security more heavily in future venue selections

I'm more skeptical on this one, for reasons already discussed on this
list (there are security issues everywhere and we do not have
sufficient data to weight them).

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 00:55:49 +0100

Hi Ray

on 2007-03-20 18:30 Ray Pelletier said the following:
...
> selections and provide more info to attendees.

If this would mean changed evaluation of venues, so that Prague would
not have been picked under those changed security considerations, 
*please don't* change.

I'm very sorry for those who have been hit by pickpockets.  But if we're
going to fall into the trap of seeing most of the world as dangerous, and
withdraw to a few safe and secure locations, we'll miss the wonderfully
varied place that our world is.  Not that I go to IETFs for that reason,
but the spice of new places goes a little way towards making up for the
long hours we spend in the meeting rooms.

Regards,

	Henrik

---

From: "Dan Wing" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 01:03:30 +0100

Arnt Gulbrandsen, [email-masked], wrote:

> > selecting the meeting city.
> 
> Name someplace that has a large enough hotel and enough 
> flights all over the world, but no no pickpockets, grasping 
> taxi drivers, visa hurdles, obnoxious smokers, xenophobic 
> waiters, shocking prices or other problems.

Cairo.  Except perhaps the visa hurdle, it meets those other
requirements pretty fairly.

-d

---

From: Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 22:35:13 -0400

>would be a good idea, too?
That has been suggested to me elsewhere and I will take under 
consideration.  We contracted with 11 hotels in support of this 
meeting.  I believe the pressure brought by such an economic force will 
carry more weight. 

>engaging in philosophical discussions on the dangers of life.
I welcome the input.  We could shrug our shoulders like local law 
enforcement or public officials, but we would be condoning the activity. 

>sufficient data to weight them).
Others share this point of view, but it is a point we need to make with 
the hotels and others.  They need to believe we are serious and the 
community needs to know that we will not be mindless of the matter and 
not pass on important information in this regard on venues we do select.
I will be drafting an ION on meetings selection following up on the 
significant work done by Jordi and we will have further dialogue on this 
point.
Ray

---

From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:03:04 +0100

> requirements pretty fairly.

Best not to have an IETF there. I could not possible survive the griping 
on the list.

Arnt

---

From: "Reda Haddad \(RL/TNT\)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 03:57:54 -0500

Beirut :) 

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Wing [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 1:04 AM
To: 'Arnt Gulbrandsen'; [email-masked]
Subject: RE: Re:Public security should be considered when selecting
themeetingsite [68ATTENDEES] Hosts, Sponsors, Contributors,Contractors
and Volunteers

Arnt Gulbrandsen, [email-masked], wrote:

> Name someplace that has a large enough hotel and enough flights all 
> over the world, but no no pickpockets, grasping taxi drivers, visa 
> hurdles, obnoxious smokers, xenophobic waiters, shocking prices or 
> other problems.

-d

---

From: Ole Jacobsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 02:08:23 -0700 (PDT)

I certainly hope we will return to Japan some day where the 
pick-pocket and other crime rate is "in the noise". That's a good 
thing since almost all surface travel requires the use of public 
transporation, often at the most busy times.

Let me take this opportunity to put in a shameless plug for SIGCOMM 
which will be held in Kyoto in August (ouch, hot). My personal take on 
the place can be seen here:

http://www.yikes.com/~ole/store/kyoto/Kyoto.html

Ole

Ole J. Jacobsen
Editor and Publisher,  The Internet Protocol Journal
Cisco Systems
Tel: +1 408-527-8972   GSM: +1 415-370-4628
E-mail: [email-masked]  URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj

---

From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:11:13 +0100

On Wed, Mar 21, 2007 at 03:57:54AM -0500,
 Reda Haddad (RL/TNT) <[email-masked]> wrote 

> Beirut :) 

In the spirit of "it works for me", I have been several times to
Beirut and never had any problem with pickpockets, taxi drivers, or
restaurant waiters.

And the place is really nice, the food great (people who have problems
with oil or sugar may disagree), the people friendly. I vote for your
proposal :-)

BTW, I recommend the movie "Bosta" for those who would like to see
what Lebanon looks like.

---

From: Janet P Gunn <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 05:28:43 -0400

A new continent! 

Has IETF ever met in Africa?

Janet

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From: "Victor M. Grado" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 05:29:44 -0400

Why not go directly to the Czech Tourist Office?  Tourism is a big business
in this country. We are not blazing a trail here.

Hotels cannot be responsible about what happens beyond their premises,
especially related to petty crime. Maybe they can establish more shuttle
services to the hotels, but thats already in place.

Police and political system are notorious for being corrupt, (in the fine
tradition of former Communist block countries), so that won't help much. You
need to have a wider reach, maybe the Chamber of Commerce as well

Victor

On 3/20/07, Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]> wrote:
>  Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> wrote
> consideration.  We contracted with 11 hotels in support of this meeting.  I
> believe the pressure brought by such an economic force will carry more
> weight.
>
> community needs to know that we will not be mindless of the matter and not
> pass on important information in this regard on venues we do select.

---

From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 02:25:49 -0700

> http://www.yikes.com/~ole/store/kyoto/Kyoto.html

The Kyoto international conference center is nice, but it's also
isolated, that's great for summits and international meetings with high
security requirements but not so great if you want to pop out for 30
minutes for lunch. The rest of the city is not far that far away by
subway but you are at the end of the line.

Just saying, every venue has some compromise to make.

joelja

---

From: "Greg Mirsky" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 02:41:33 -0700

Or send a complaint to EU Parliament in Brussels with copy to NATO HQ. Czech Republic is member of both after all and we should inform them about inappropriate treatment of IETFer's in Prague.

Could this thread be just DROPPED, STOPPED, TERMINATED!

Thank you in advance,
Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: Victor M. Grado [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Wed 3/21/2007 2:29 AM
To: Ray Pelletier
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Public security should be considered when selecting themeetingsite [68ATTENDEES] Hosts, Sponsors, Contributors,Contractors and Volunteers

Victor

---

From: Ole Jacobsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 02:45:59 -0700 (PDT)

I did not mean to suggest we go to Kyoto. IETF is probably too big for 
that. I did mean to suggest we go back to YOKOHAMA however.

Ole

Ole J. Jacobsen

---

From: Rohan Mahy <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:09:23 +0100

Ray,

I'd like to express myself on this topic very briefly:
- I am personally very sorry about the unpleasant and probably  
frightening experience of being robbed or nearly robbed.
- Please send the letter.  I think more police on the metro would  
discourage thefts there.
- For any other venue that has security concerns, I think we should  
mix our big groups up with a few local savvy guides or take advantage  
of any IETFer who where XXL or larger as an informal body guard.
- Finally, *please* do not scratch Prague (or Paris, or Barcelona)  
off the list because of security concerns.  I think that other than  
the pickpockets and smoky Congress I, this was one of the best venues  
in years.

thanks,
-rohan

On Mar 20, 2007, at 6:30 PM, Ray Pelletier wrote:
> While not uncommon elsewhere it is true that here like elsewhere it  
> has become an industry almost ignored by the local enforcement  
> authorities.  Perhaps it is also true that the incidents here are  
> not any greater in type or degree than incidents elsewhere.  I was  
> the target of a pickpocket attempt on a bus in Rome.
>
> However, it is not acceptable and I informed the hotel last evening  
> that it would suffer from the practice and that they had an  
> obligation to exert pressure on local authorities to step up law  
> enforcement, else we and others would not come back no matter how  
> great a facility the venue was.
>
> I will be following up my comments with a letter to the hotel and  
> to Hilton International.  I would appreciate details of incidents,  
> when, where and what, brought to my attention at [email-masked].  I  
> regret the incidents.  We will consider security more heavily in  
> future venue selections and provide more info to attendees.
>
> The IETF meeting generates about $2 million USD in money to the  
> local economy.  We will take it elsewhere when appropriate.
> Ray
> IAD
>
>
> Thomas Walsh wrote:
>> happens a lot to delegates at the ITU-T in Geneva (one of Europe's  
>> safer cities). The best protection is to be on guard at all times  
>> around train, plane and subway stations. -----Original  
>> Message----- From: Dean Willis [mailto:[email-masked]]  
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 6:05 PM To: Janet P Gunn Cc:  
>> [email-masked] Subject: Re: Public security should be  
>> considered when selecting themeeting site [68ATTENDEES] Hosts,  
>> Sponsors, Contributors,Contractors and Volunteers On Mar 20, 2007,  
>> at 4:28 PM, Janet P Gunn wrote:
>>>> ...The incidence of pickpockets, the brazenness of the crimes,  
>>>> and the near or threatened (or realized) violence to various  
>>>> members of the IETF that have been reported
>>> or I've
>> there were many more that I never heard about. -- Dean  
>> _______________________________________________ 68ATTENDEES  
>> mailing list [email-masked] https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/ 
>> listinfo/68attendees  
>> _______________________________________________ 68ATTENDEES  
>> mailing list [email-masked] https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/ 
>> listinfo/68attendees