Subject: Re: [68ATTENDEES] Returning to Prague (was: Re: Hilton Prague)

From: "Mark Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 22:55:14 +0800

Rather than try to find a venue which will keep everybody happy, I would rather the people in charge of choosing the venue chose a feasible venue observing practical issues like reacahability and rotation of continents and then made a full list of potential health and security issues. E.g. Pickpockets in subways, beer expensive in hotels, smokers still at large, etc. 

Then people can decide to stay at home and work on the mailing list if they feel they can't handle it. 

--Mark

--------------------------
Sent from handheld. 

----- Original Message -----
From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked] <[email-masked]>
Sent: Sat Mar 24 07:46:29 2007
Subject: [68ATTENDEES] Returning to Prague (was: Re: Hilton Prague)

For those expressing a desire to return --soon and often-- to 
Prague and his hotel, one thought...

I like the hotel and the staff and the facilities.  I mostly 
like the city.   Under the right circumstances, I'd be delighted 
to come back.

I am also sympathetic to, and agree with, those who say "if you 
decide to come into a particular culture, you accept the norms 
of that culture and work with them".

However,..

I think there are issues about health and accessibility that 
supercede _any_ other considerations of meeting site choices. 
In order to have effective IETF meetings that are open to all 
participants and contributors in the IETF, we must put 
health-related criteria above all others.   If a country or city 
or hotel does not, or cannot, provide an environment in which 
people can attend a meeting for a week without the certainty of 
serious and immediate health damage from the atmosphere (indoor 
or outdoor), I will defend their right to make that decision, 
but the IETF should not even consider meeting there.   If a 
facility and city are not largely wheelchair-accessible, the 
IETF should not even consider meeting there.  And so on 
(although I don't think the list is very long).

There may be tradeoffs if a facility can provide a truly 
effective smoke-free environment or adequate mobility 
accommodations -- telling an IETF participant that he or she may 
not be able to comfortably leave the meeting hotel for a week is 
unattractive, but may not be a showstopper if there are adequate 
facilities within the meeting hotel.  But telling people that 
the cannot attend and participate and remain healthy is, from my 
perspective, just not acceptable if we have any other possible 
choice.

In the case of Prague, we heard the argument many times in the 
week before the meeting that this choice of city was reasonable 
because there are lots of participants in Europe and, to a 
European, one city is as good as another.  Ok.  But, if one 
believes that, then there is no excuse for going to a city that 
hasn't accepted growing norms, even in Europe, about indoor air 
quality (or, for that matter, accessibility standards or 
anything else that belongs on this short list of absolute 
priorities.

Even the "need to look at the people various visa regulations 
will keep out" issue is, to me, secondary to this one even 
though I consider that one very, very, important and hope we 
will never again hold two consecutive meetings that de facto 
exclude the same people.

I am luckier than Randy because my body's potentially serious 
reactions to small amounts of tobacco smoke can be kept within 
reasonable levels by a combination of caution and drugs.  But I 
don't like some of the drugs and, more important, they 
significantly reduce my ability to function (as some people may 
have noticed this week).  To either of us, this type of 
environment is a fairly clear "don't come and participate 
remotely if at all" message.   I do not believe IETF should be 
delivering that message, especially to active contributors.

    john

_______________________________________________
68ATTENDEES mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/68attendees
_______________________________________________
68ATTENDEES mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/68attendees

---

From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:06:15 +0200

>>>>> "Mark" == Mark Williams <[email-masked]> writes:
    Mark> Rather than try to find a venue which will keep everybody
    Mark> happy, I would rather the people in charge of choosing the
    Mark> venue chose a feasible venue observing practical issues like
    Mark> reacahability and rotation of continents and then made a full
    Mark> list of potential health and security issues. E.g. Pickpockets
    Mark> in subways, beer expensive in hotels, smokers still at large,
    Mark> etc.

    Mark> Then people can decide to stay at home and work on the mailing
    Mark> list if they feel they can't handle it.

  +1

  Information. That's all I needed.

  If I'd been told that my "non-smoking room" would be connected to a
hallway that shares airspace with a smokey Atrium... I'd have booked
in another hotel. 

  (Ditto on the cookies.  If the cookies can't be nut-free, then a person
just needs to know that in advance. )

  I will return to Prague, but before I'd stay in that Hilton, I'd want
to know if they've fixed various problems.
  I agree it was a better experience than the Dallas Anatole, actually.
(The flood there... was a + for me, since it was interesting,btw)

- -- 
]            Bear: "Me, I'm just the shape of a bear."          |  firewalls  [
]   Michael Richardson,    Xelerance Corporation, Ottawa, ON    |net architect[
] [email-masked]      http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/mcr/ |device driver[
] panic("Just another Debian GNU/Linux using, kernel hacking, security guy"); [

---

From: Dave Cridland <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:40:20 +0000

> hallway that shares airspace with a smokey Atrium... I'd have booked

One way to solve this would be to send a reviewing team to the hotel, 
first. Hard work as it would be, I volunteer to be flown all over the 
world at vast expense, just so I get to sit in plush hotels and 
decide how luxurious it is. I'll even selflessly test out local beer. 
That's just how dedicated I am. Self-sacrifice is my middle name, me.

Okay, serious time.

These are things that the IETF could make a note of for "next time" - 
we could consider making a snag-list of issues that could be changed 
for "next time", assuming there is one (and I personally hope so, I 
thought the meeting was great).

Where we find a venue that is, in terms of unfixable problems, good, 
then we should repeat it, even if the initial meeting found fixable 
problems high. We can't fix a crime problem, nor a visa problem. In 
principle, though, smoking within the hotel is a fixable problem, 
however much I sympathize with Randy in particular, and otherwise the 
whole meeting seemed excellent to me. [And no, I didn't consider 
Prague to have much of a crime problem, and no, I don't really care 
about Cookies or Glass Bottles.]

Dave.
-- 
Dave Cridland - mailto:[email-masked] - xmpp:[email-masked]
  - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/
  - http://dave.cridland.net/
Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade

---

From: Jeffrey Hutzelman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 11:56:36 -0400

On Monday, March 26, 2007 04:40:20 PM +0000 Dave Cridland 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> world at vast expense, just so I get to sit in plush hotels and decide
> how luxurious it is. I'll even selflessly test out local beer. That's
> just how dedicated I am. Self-sacrifice is my middle name, me.

I think it is the wrong time of year to volunteer to be on the IAOC. :-)

---

From: Iljitsch van Beijnum <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 23:39:35 +0200

On 26-mrt-2007, at 18:40, Dave Cridland wrote:

> Where we find a venue that is, in terms of unfixable problems,  
> good, then we should repeat it, even if the initial meeting found  
> fixable problems high.

Since this discussion stubbornly refuses to die, I might as well  
chime in.

Fixable: the floor plans on the agenda leaflet were largely  
unreadable with online floor maps hard to find, which made finding  
some of the less used meeting rooms MUCH harder than it needed to be.  
Although there were more than enough refreshments in the afternoons,  
no water around before that.

(Presumably) non-fixable: the smaller rooms were pretty bad: ceiling  
too low to allow for decent projection, bad acoustics and for the idr  
wg we even had one with big fat columns in the middle.

But a factor 12 closer to home than San Diego and a 30 second  
immigration queue isn't half bad.  :-)

---

From: Bill Fenner <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 00:01:12 +0100

>unreadable with online floor maps hard to find

Plug, of tool which I only learned about this time:
http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/68/

Clicking on room name brings up room map, which is unreadably
small but has a big obvious arrow pointing to where you need
to go so doesn't need to be readable...

  Bill

---

From: Jeffrey Hutzelman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 18:20:56 -0400

> to go so doesn't need to be readable...

Oh, that is cool.
I'd like a PalmOS version for next time, please. :-)

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 19:38:14 -0400

> to go so doesn't need to be readable...

That is 'way cool.  Sad that it was a secret until now.

    john

---

From: Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 21:11:38 -0400

>That is 'way cool.  Sad that it was a secret until now.
It was on the 68 Commons wiki.
Ray

---

From: Tony Hansen <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 23:03:49 -0400

> It was on the 68 Commons wiki.

It hasn't been a secret, but we certainly haven't been very good at
advertising its availability. Its first trial introduction was in
Montreal, but it didn't appear until midweek. In San Diego, it was there
but it wasn't obvious that clicking on a room name would bring up the
map. In Prague, we made several changes to the room name links to make
them more obvious, and added explicit links to the map. And we're
already working on the maps for Chicago, Vancouver, Philly and
Minneapolis. I'm glad people like it.

	Tony Hansen
	[email-masked]

---

From: "Drage, Keith \(Keith\)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:36:13 +0200

Someone needs to give Henrik more publicity.

I found out about this tool after the meeting had finished. It is
something that should at least have been on the WiKi, if not on the main
meeting agenda page. The only link that seems to be on the meeting Wiki
is: http://www.tools.ietf.org/rooms which does get you the arrow to a
room, but misses the rest of the calendaring.

Note that in general I find the tools available are poorly linked from
the main IETF pages. I seem to have to know about the tool I want before
I can use it.

regards

Keith 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Fenner [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 12:01 AM
> To: Iljitsch van Beijnum
> Cc: Mailing list for IETF 68 attendees.
> Subject: Re: [68ATTENDEES] Returning to Prague (was: Re: 
> Hilton Prague)
> 
>

---

From: Eliot Lear <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:52:08 +0200

> Someone needs to give Henrik more publicity.

I'd like to second this.  Henrik has done a phenomenal job.  A number of 
people asked me why I didn't put out a calendar in iCalendar format.  
The reason is that there is a tool available on the tools page that will 
generate one with specific meetings that you're interested in.  And then 
there's xml2rfc and and and.

Eliot

---

From: Pekka Savola <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:52:43 +0300 (EEST)

Hi,

> Someone needs to give Henrik more publicity.
...

I thought I would never continue these kinds of threads, but now that the 
topic has drifted away from IETF68, I'll relax:

IMHO, there are two issues (I wouldn't want to call them as such, as I'm 
extremely happy with the tools as such) with the tools.ietf.org services:

  1) They should (for most part) replace the current IETF official pages.
     For example, a non-IETF-goer asked (IMHO appropriately), "why aren't
     the "tools.ietf.org/wg/foo" the official page, instead of the less
     informative official IETF page?

     In other words, there has been a lot of very good tools activity, but
     some of that should really be taken a few steps ahead into
     'production' use.

  2) The tools site should have very easy changelog that describes all the
     changes made to services (or at least gives pointers to distinct,
     tool-specific changelogs).  Modifications and enhancements are made
     all the time, and you can't really exploit all of them unless you know
     what they are or stumble on them by accident.

---

From: Tim Chown <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:04:27 +0100

>     what they are or stumble on them by accident.

I agree - the (very good!) new tools are almost like a secret underground
feature... they should be pushed to the fore.

-- 
Tim

---

From: Jim Martin <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:17:55 +0200

Perhaps we should add a 5 minute time slot to the wednesday  
plenary to give the tools team the opportunity to highlight their  
latest, greatest additions and improvement. That would be at /least/  
as valuable as the NOC team report :-)

	- Jim

On Mar 27, 2007, at 11:52 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:

> I'd like to second this.  Henrik has done a phenomenal job.  A  
> number of people asked me why I didn't put out a calendar in  
> iCalendar format.  The reason is that there is a tool available on  
> the tools page that will generate one with specific meetings that  
> you're interested in.  And then there's xml2rfc and and and.
>
> Eliot
>

---

From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:25:49 +0200

This looks to me like a good idea. I am copying my colleagues in the
IESG, in case they are not on the 68ATTENDEES list. 

Dan

> From: Jim Martin [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 12:18 PM
> To: Mailing list for IETF 68 attendees.
>     Perhaps we should add a 5 minute time slot to the 
> wednesday plenary to give the tools team the opportunity to 
> highlight their latest, greatest additions and improvement. 
> That would be at /least/ as valuable as the NOC team report :-)
> 
> 	- Jim
> 
> > I'd like to second this.  Henrik has done a phenomenal job. 
>  A number 
> > of people asked me why I didn't put out a calendar in iCalendar 
> > format.  The reason is that there is a tool available on the tools 
> > page that will generate one with specific meetings that you're 
> > interested in.  And then there's xml2rfc and and and.
> >
> > Eliot
> >

---

From: Avri Doria <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:35:05 +0100

Hi,

I think the short slot at one of the plenaries is a good idea.  also,  
the Edu Team is looking at adding a class on Sundays's for Tool  
explantaion.

a.

On 27 mar 2007, at 11.17, Jim Martin wrote:

> latest, greatest additions and improvement. That would be at / 
> least/ as valuable as the NOC team report :-)
>
> 	- Jim
>

---

From: Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 07:39:27 -0400

>IESG, in case they are not on the 68ATTENDEES list.
Wed is late to get an overview of tools, especially for those that might 
be useful for the meeting.  Shouldn't we consider a 30 - 45 minute 
Plenary Monday morning?
Ray

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:45:31 +0200

Hi Pekka,

>      some of that should really be taken a few steps ahead into

Agreed to some extent, but there's a matter of how this is done.  For
instance, how much of the limited secretariat resources should be spent
on moving tools pages over to the NSS servers?  My viewpoint has been
that it's more important to get NSS to implement tracker extensions,
which will provide input of information not available today, making more
advanced services and information presentation possible.

If we find a solution which (for now) accomplish 1) above by better cross-
linking, the cost in NSS manpower and IASA funds would be much less, and
we could accomplish this much faster.

A final point is that if we move over to greater reliance on the tools
pages, I'd like us to handle the software running on the tools servers
so that it's clear that there's no danger of it being or becoming
proprietary.  Most of it's already clearly labelled with GPL or BSD
licenses, and I've set up a rsync service which I'll arrange for Bill
Fenner and some other people to use to keep copies of the tool scripts
on separate servers.

>      what they are or stumble on them by accident.

Good point.  I'll set up a RSS and/or Atom feed for tool changelog
notes, and aggregate these into a once-per-week message on the 
tools-discuss list, and maybe a once-per-month message to ietf-announce.

Does this sound like a plan?

	Henrik

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:48:05 +0200

> the Edu Team is looking at adding a class on Sundays's for Tool  

Yes, Avri had already contacted me about this.  If people feel that
a 5-minute plenary presentation would be valuable too, no problem.

	Henrik

---

From: Janet P Gunn <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:41:48 -0400

Yes,

I kept hoping that they would at least have  a large poster of the meeting 
room layout at registration. 

Janet

---

From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 09:05:02 -0700

At 4:40 PM +0000 3/26/07, Dave Cridland wrote:

> fixable problems high. We can't fix a crime problem, nor a visa 
> problem. In principle, though, smoking within the hotel is a 
> fixable problem, however much I sympathize with Randy in 
> particular, and otherwise the whole meeting seemed excellent to me. 
> [And no, I didn't consider Prague to have much of a crime problem, 
> and no, I don't really care about Cookies or Glass Bottles.]

I agree.  Smoking in the hotel is a fixable problem.  I'm all for 
going to places where the fixable problems are improved, and the 
unfixible problems are not too bad.
-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
There is so much to be said in favor of modern journalism.
By giving us the opinions of the uneducated, it keeps us in touch
with the ignorance of the community.                --Oscar Wilde

---

From: Nicolas Williams <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:53:57 -0500

On Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 04:40:20PM +0000, Dave Cridland wrote:
>                                    ..., and no, I don't really care 

Potable ice water availability at all times is a very nice feature of
all/most IETFs held in U.S. hotels that I recall.

I really don't care for bottled water -- I care for having access to
water any time I am thirsty without having to pay European bottled water
rates when I am thirsty at inconvenient times.

Also, water at the chairs' tables for the chairs and rpesenters would be
nice.  It's hard to speak when parched.

Nico
--

---

From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 22:40:08 +0200

>>>>> "Ray" == Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]> writes:
    >> This looks to me like a good idea. I am copying my colleagues in
    >> the IESG, in case they are not on the 68ATTENDEES list.

    Ray> Wed is late to get an overview of tools, especially for those
    Ray> that might be useful for the meeting.  Shouldn't we consider a
    Ray> 30 - 45 minute Plenary Monday morning?  Ray

  No.

  Instead, set up a projector just outside the reception area on sunday,
and just have someone wandering through all the tools pages. It could
even be a "movie". If it's live, you can walk over there and ask
questions.

- --

---

From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 14:08:43 -0700

At 7:39 AM -0400 3/27/07, Ray Pelletier wrote:

>  Wed is late to get an overview of tools, especially for those that 
> might be useful for the meeting.  Shouldn't we consider a 30 - 45 
> minute Plenary Monday morning?

There used to be a Monday morning plenary session (if I recall 
correctly, it was mostly used by the host).     Instead of 
resurrecting it, I like what has earlier been proposed here, which if 
I understand correctly, is to have a tools tutorial/overview on 
Sunday, and a brief update on Wednesday, presumably to cover what's 
new since the last meeting.
-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
When working on a project, if you put away a tool that you're
certain you're finished with, you will need it instantly.

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 20:26:54 -0400

--On Tuesday, 27 March, 2007 11:53 -0500 Nicolas Williams
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> Potable ice water availability at all times is a very nice
> feature of all/most IETFs held in U.S. hotels that I recall.
> 
> I really don't care for bottled water -- I care for having
> access to water any time I am thirsty without having to pay
> European bottled water rates when I am thirsty at inconvenient
> times.
> 
> Also, water at the chairs' tables for the chairs and
> rpesenters would be nice.  It's hard to speak when parched.

Hmm.  While I agree, I see it, perhaps oddly, as another
communications problem: knowing what to expect at the meeting
site is more important to me than what particular approach is
taken.  I'm perfectly capable of carrying water around with me
if I know that is necessary and suspect other IETF members are
too.   But I'd prefer to not drag the bottle -- even a
collapsible one -- if it isn't going to be needed.

   john

---

From: "YAO Jiankang" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 08:55:03 +0800

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nicolas Williams" <[email-masked]>
To: "Dave Cridland" <[email-masked]>
Cc: "Michael Richardson" <[email-masked]>; "Mailing list for IETF 68 attendees." <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 12:53 AM
Subject: Water features Re: [68ATTENDEES] Returning to Prague (was: Re: HiltonPrague)

> all/most IETFs held in U.S. hotels that I recall.

yes, Potable ice water availability at all times is a very nice feature of IETF

YAO

---

From: Nicolas Williams <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 22:47:25 -0500

> collapsible one -- if it isn't going to be needed.

How do you drag ice water around and keep it at that temperature all day
long?  At least two or three IETF days are 8AM-midnight work days for
me, once you add in hallway meetings, design team meetings, presentation
writing (yes, I do them at the last minute).

I drink a lot of water over the course of an IETF day, and I prefer ice
water.

Perhaps I'm just too accustomed to expecting large ice water dispensers
in every meeting room as in all/most IETFs held in the U.S.?  Perhaps
others from outside the U.S. distrust all tap water and would prefer
bottled water during meeting breaks.

Nico
--

---

From: Pekka Savola <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:57:17 +0300 (EEST)

...

Yeah, I agree that this is a fine line (and it would likely also slow down 
the further development of the tools) and is a reason why I haven't pushed 
for this more.

One potential cross-referencing approach might be to consider whether 
http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/wg-dir.html could provide references to 
the http://tools.ietf.org/wg/foo/ pages instead of the current ones.

(The only shortcoming with the tools WG page for non-IETF folks is that 
the charter of the group is not quite as obvious but I'm not sure if this 
could be made any better)

I haven't thought about whether the other current IETF pages should better 
be "toolsified", maybe so (e.g., direct pointers to tools-enabled IETF 
agendas or some I-D or RFC post-processing and diffing mechanisms).

> Does this sound like a plan?

Sounds excellent to me.  Please put a prominent "What's new?" or "What's 
changed?" on the web pages as well for the benefit of those who don't use 
RSS/ATOM feeds nor subscribe the mailing lists (e.g., non-IETF goers, 
non-regular participants).

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:40:26 -0400

--On Tuesday, March 27, 2007 10:47 PM -0500 Nicolas Williams 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> I drink a lot of water over the course of an IETF day, and I
? prefer ice water.

While my preferences run to hot water, preferably flavored with tea, rather 
than ice water, the answer is the same -- insulated bottles or mugs, 
refilled at appropriate breaks.  Certainly that is not as convenient as 
having beverages continually available, which I prefer too, but it works 
reasonably well as long as beverages are not dispensed by the glass or 
bottle by meeting site staff who consider each one a valuable resource to 
be carefully controlled.

So, again, I consider this a matter of convenience, probably even 
relatively important convenience, not one of necessity for people (even a 
subset of people) to attend the meeting.

   john

---

From: "Aaron Stone" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:18:48 -0000

>> on 2007-03-27 11:52 Pekka Savola said the following:
[snip]
>>>      all the time, and you can't really exploit all of them unless you
>>>      know what they are or stumble on them by accident.
>>

And even for IETFers who don't have the bandwidth to subscribe to
everything, but would like to be able to find out what's new in other
WG's. We all hear about one another's work through other channels now and
then, and it'd be nice to find at least some cursory detail without
reading through months of mailing list archives.

Aaron

---

From: Spencer at Yahoo <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:22:54 -0700 (PDT)

Many of the recent posts on this list have been about topics of general IETF interest - perhaps it's time to move general topics to [email-masked]?
   
  (just a thought)
   
  Spencer

---

From: "Yaakov Stein" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:26:15 +0200

If we keep using this list will it eventually be renamed
68_and_a_half_ATTENDEES ?
 
Y(J)S

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:34:36 +0200

Hi Aaron,

> reading through months of mailing list archives.

You seem to be proposing something different than Pekka here; Pekka
was proposing that new *tools* should be marked on the tools pages;
you're proposing that there should be "What's new" markings for the
WG materials on the WG pages on tools.ietf.org; is that right?

	Henrik

---

From: Sandra Murphy <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:37:21 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)

> reading through months of mailing list archives.

Aaron (and Pekka?) - Henrik's plan suggests noting changes in the tools 
site, but you seem to have broadened that to noting changes in any wg. 
That might be more of a scope than Henrik suggests.

--Sandy

---

From: Iljitsch van Beijnum <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 20:51:31 +0200

On 28-mrt-2007, at 19:40, John C Klensin wrote:

> While my preferences run to hot water, preferably flavored with  
> tea, rather than ice water, the answer is the same -- insulated  
> bottles or mugs, refilled at appropriate breaks.  Certainly that is  
> not as convenient as having beverages continually available, which  
> I prefer too, but it works reasonably well as long as beverages are  
> not dispensed by the glass or bottle by meeting site staff who  
> consider each one a valuable resource to be carefully controlled.

> relatively important convenience, not one of necessity for people  
> (even a subset of people) to attend the meeting.

Well obviously nobody died of dehydration at an IETF meeting that I'm  
aware of, but the problem is that there is no reasonable way to get  
at anything drinkable around the conference rooms between 9 and 15  
hours under the Prague regime. (And it was a lot worse in Paris, I  
think they even turned off the taps in the bath rooms.) So if, like  
me, you tend to skip lunch because running out, eating in a hurry,  
and running back is either a waste of time or a waste of food  
(depending on the quality of the latter), then this scores very high  
on the annoyance scale. Being able to buy beverages helps a little,  
but the portions tend to be so small at hotel type venues that this  
isn't much of a solution.

Either have fountains, coolers or big (~500ml) bottles of the stuff.  
The meeting fees have increased by nearly 50% in 10 years and are  
around double what's needed to cover costs. Water sec costs in the  
order of $1/cubic meter (where I'm from at least) so I don't think  
this is too much too ask for.

---

From: "Aaron Stone" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:59:21 -0000

> WG materials on the WG pages on tools.ietf.org; is that right?

Oh, yes indeed, then I am suggesting something different. I thought we
were still on the issue of how the WG pages link (or don't link) to useful
information about the WG's recent work. Something of a cross between
these:

http://tools.ietf.org/wg/imapext/
http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/imapext-charter.html

The ietf.org page links to the charter page, and the tools page links to
the charter page, but the charter page doesn't link to much of anything
useful.

And yes, we're probably into general [email-masked] territory on this
conversation, but I suspect I really really don't have the bandwidth for
that...

Aaron

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:07:19 -0400

At the risk of, once again, being accused of favoring only North American 
meetings (which I have never done), I can't find any way to disagree with 
any of this.

   john

--On Wednesday, March 28, 2007 8:51 PM +0200 Iljitsch van Beijnum 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> aware of, but the problem is that there is no reasonable way to get at
> anything drinkable around the conference rooms between 9 and 15 hours
> under the Prague regime. (And it was a lot worse in Paris, I think they
> even turned off the taps in the bath rooms.) So if, like me, you tend to
> skip lunch because running out, eating in a hurry, and running back is
> either a waste of time or a waste of food (depending on the quality of
> the latter), then this scores very high on the annoyance scale. Being
> able to buy beverages helps a little, but the portions tend to be so
> small at hotel type venues that this isn't much of a solution.
>
> Either have fountains, coolers or big (~500ml) bottles of the stuff. The
> meeting fees have increased by nearly 50% in 10 years and are around
> double what's needed to cover costs. Water sec costs in the order of
> $1/cubic meter (where I'm from at least) so I don't think this is too
> much too ask for.

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 21:35:23 +0200

Hi Aaron,

...
> the charter page, but the charter page doesn't link to much of anything

Right.  So I've aimed at making the http://tools.ietf.org/wg/imapext/
page show all the relevant information; what's really represented only
by the link to the charter page is the charter itself.  I could insert
an expandable section for that at the top; that would probably be a good
addition.  Otherwise, the tools.ietf.org page has document dates and
the ability to sort on those -- it used to have "New!" indications in
red, too, which would fade after 5 days; but I removed them as they
required very frequent page updates to be meaningful.  However, the RSS
feed page, which most modern browsers will render decently, gives you an
slternative "What's new" list: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/imapext/new-ids.rss

> conversation, but I suspect I really really don't have the bandwidth for

Yes, those can become quite ... intense.

	Henrik

---

From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 23:30:41 +0200

>>>>> "John" == John C Klensin <[email-masked]> writes:
    >> Also, water at the chairs' tables for the chairs and rpesenters
    >> would be nice.  It's hard to speak when parched.

    John> Hmm.  While I agree, I see it, perhaps oddly, as another
    John> communications problem: knowing what to expect at the meeting
    John> site is more important to me than what particular approach is
    John> taken.  I'm perfectly capable of carrying water around with me
    John> if I know that is necessary and suspect other IETF members are
    John> too.  But I'd prefer to not drag the bottle -- even a
    John> collapsible one -- if it isn't going to be needed.

  I had a bottle. But, I never found a place to fill it up other than in
my room.

- --

---

From: "Keith Kyzivat" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:41:10 -0400

In my spare time I'm the vice chairman of Anime Boston - an Anime convention
that happens every year in Boston (in fact, it's coming up soon now)...
What we do for water is in the hotel, ensure that there's a large watering
station, with icewater and cups within very short walk of each room in the
hotel, and in the convention center (Hynes), there are water coolers in each
and every meeting room.

Both solutions work very well to keep attendees and staff alike hydrated.  I
think a similar approach would work well for IETF -- that way, one can grab
a cup of water on their way into the meeting, refill if necessary whilst in
the meeting, and if they want more water, but don't wish to get up to get it
during the meeting, can bring their own bottle that they can fill at the
beginning of each meeting.

-- 
Keith Kyzivat

SIPez LLC.
SIP VoIP, IM and Presence Consulting
http://www.SIPez.com
tel: +1 (617) 273-4000
_______________________________________________
68ATTENDEES mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/68attendees

---

From: Nicolas Williams <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:00:52 -0500

> think a similar approach would work well for IETF -- that way, one can grab

This rarely happens at IETFs outside the U.S.  I suspect European and
other hotels simply don't have the containers, and probably don't have
the ice making capacity.

---

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 19:02:49 -0500

> other hotels simply don't have the containers, and probably don't have

and in many venues, people simply don't drink tap water. Often for  
good reasons.

Having been to lots of meetings in various parts of the world, I'm  
beginning to suspect that it is a particularly North American  
affectation to think that continual hydration is necessary.

In addition to talking loudly, wearing brightly coulored T-shirts  
with khaki pants and athletic shoes, and being unable to walk uphill,  
North American tourists are most notable for toting bottles of water.

Outside of temperatures over 40°, a normal human can actually go for  
several hours without water.

I suspect the perceived need for water has much to do with highly- 
promoted fad diets (some governmentally sponsored) in the US  
encouraging people to drink more water via ostensibly inflated claims  
of healthfullness.

It's just not that necessary, and I'd guess it probably isn't going  
to happen.

--
Dean

---

From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:45:25 +0300

Right,

it's largely a cultural issue. 

Many Europeans are used to carrying their drinks with them ONLY when hiking or skiing in the wilderness. Everywhere else we stop over at cafe, restaurant, or some roadside service for the car and the crew. It's not only about the drink or smoke, but it's also about having a break, to sit down and think. Or discuss. 

It may seem inefficient for American, as it looks like the Europeans are not capable of talking and drinking coffee (or driving) at the same time. But now you know why you need to order the mug holders as optional extras to your imported Euro car.

Part of American concept of comfort seems to be continuous supply of liquid refreshments. Once you have got used to it, having to cope without may feel less than perfect service. 

Many U.S. states are rather hot for the whole long summer. So cooling both the drinks and the houses means comfort. Sometimes this hospitality is so overwhelming that I need a pullover. But I am sure the intention is good, nevertheless.

That may be the reason for the raised eyebrows when I ask NOT to get any frozen lumps of water in my drink. For me it's enough to showel the white stuff away from my driveway maybe once a week for half a year. That's enough, thank you very much, and I definitely don't need any more in my drink now that I have got rid of the excessive supply at home. 

For the same reason in European winter comfort means heating, also outside the Nordic countries. That's why many of us overdo it to the level of discomfort. Just to make sure our guests don't feel cold. 

Sometimes mixing these things does not work by just multiplexing all ingredients. I would recommend drinking Italian or French coffee in American measures only when participating Iron Butt Association's Saddle Sore ride of 1000 miles in 24 hours.

The people outside U.S. and Europe could probably further elaborate on this collision of cultures.

The challenge of multi-cultural organisation is to recognise these needs, whether real or just something we have got used to, and to make sure that most people can stay in their comfort zone most of the time, wherever we meet.

BR,
Hannu Hietalahti
3GPP TSG CT chairman
Nokia
http://www.nokia.com/openness/

>From: ext Dean Willis [mailto:[email-masked]] 
>Sent: 30 March, 2007 03:03
>To: Nicolas Williams
>Subject: Re: Water features Re: [68ATTENDEES] Returning to 
>Prague (was: Re:Hilton Prague)
>
>>> Both solutions work very well to keep attendees and staff alike 
>>> hydrated.  I think a similar approach would work well for IETF -- 
>>> that way, one can grab
>>
>and in many venues, people simply don't drink tap water. Often 
>for good reasons.
>
>Having been to lots of meetings in various parts of the world, 
>I'm beginning to suspect that it is a particularly North 
>American affectation to think that continual hydration is necessary.
>
>In addition to talking loudly, wearing brightly coulored 
>T-shirts with khaki pants and athletic shoes, and being unable 
>to walk uphill, North American tourists are most notable for 
>toting bottles of water.
>
>Outside of temperatures over 40°, a normal human can actually 
>go for several hours without water.
>
>I suspect the perceived need for water has much to do with 
>highly- promoted fad diets (some governmentally sponsored) in 
>the US encouraging people to drink more water via ostensibly 
>inflated claims of healthfullness.
>
>It's just not that necessary, and I'd guess it probably isn't 
>going to happen.
>
>--
>Dean
>
>