Subject: [68ATTENDEES] Network shutdown time

From: Morgan Sackett <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:55:07 +0100

All,

We will be turning down the network starting at noon.  We will start  
in the meeting rooms and work our way back to the center.

Morgan Sackett
VP of Engineering

VeriLAN Event Services, Inc.
215 SE Morrison Street Suite 2000F
Portland, OR 97214

Tel: 503 224-8822
Fax: 503 224-8833
Cell: 503 969-2154

[email-masked]
www.verilan.com

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---

From: Jeffrey Hutzelman <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 06:02:54 -0400 (EDT)

> in the meeting rooms and work our way back to the center.

Thanks for your efforts, and an excellent network all week.

If we're going to continue with the model of contracting for network
service, perhaps it is time to consider keeping the network up into Friday
afternoon at future meetings.

-- Jeff

---

From: "M.T. Carrasco Benitez" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:06:40 +0100

+1

---

From: Henning Schulzrinne <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 06:10:04 -0400

It would be very useful to have one AP up until Friday afternoon.

I'd also like to commend the network team for having VoIP phones in  
the terminal room, given the usually exorbitant hotel calling rates  
(and international cell phone rates) and the difficulty of placing  
phone calls when not staying in the main hotel. It would be nice if  
this becomes a standard feature; an "IP phone booth" that provides  
some privacy and avoids bothering bystanders would be a nice extra.

---

From: Jeffrey Hutzelman <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 06:13:43 -0400 (EDT)

> It would be very useful to have one AP up until Friday afternoon.

Let's avoid micromanaging the details, specifying number of AP's etc.
Instead, perhaps we can just ask that the meeting network remain
somehow accessible to attendees for a longer period.

---

From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:16:31 +0200

Thank you for the best network experience at a IETF meeting in my living
memory. I have just one word to characterize it - flawless. 

Dan

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Morgan Sackett [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 11:55 AM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: [68ATTENDEES] Network shutdown time
> 
> All,
> 
> We will be turning down the network starting at noon.  We 
> will start in the meeting rooms and work our way back to the center.
> 
> 
> Morgan Sackett
> VP of Engineering
> 
> If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are 
> hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or 
> copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you 
> received this message in error, please delete it immediately.
> 
> 
>

---

From: Tim Chown <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:20:46 +0000

> afternoon at future meetings.

I would also like to say thanks for an excellent wireless coverage
through the week.

I also agree coverage to later on Friday would be nice, but appreciate that
the nework crew probably would like to get home on a Friday too :)

-- 
Tim

---

From: "GOLDMAN, STUART O \(STUART\)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 05:22:32 -0500

+1

Stuart Goldman
Alcatel-Lucent 
[email-masked]
602 493 8438

-----Original Message-----
From: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 3:17 AM
To: Morgan Sackett; [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [68ATTENDEES] Network shutdown time

Dan

---

From: Tony Hansen <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 06:25:34 -0400

Great network this week!

	Tony Hansen
	[email-masked]

Morgan Sackett wrote:
> We will be turning down the network starting at noon.  We will start in
> the meeting rooms and work our way back to the center.

---

From: Bob Hinden <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:26:49 +0100

> somehow accessible to attendees for a longer period.

Keeping one AP up is easy, keeping the network up behind it is  
harder.  Normally, the network team has a fixed deadline to be out of  
the hotel space.  For example, in Dallas we had to be out of the NOC  
and other spaces by about 6pm, and had arranged for shippers to pick  
up the equipment late Friday afternoon.  Delaying the tear down later  
in the day makes this all a lot harder.

Bob

---

From: "Keith Kyzivat" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:26:45 +0100

As a new attendee to the IETF, I'd like to say that this network coverage
blew my mind away.
The coverage, services, speed, and uptime was flawless.

Thank you so much for contributing to the excellent experience I had here at
IETF68 in Prague.

-- 
Keith Kyzivat

SIPez LLC.
SIP VoIP, IM and Presence Consulting
http://www.SIPez.com
tel: +1 (617) 273-4000
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---

From: Eliot Lear <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:28:45 +0100

> Great network this week!
I'd imagine we have better than rough consensus on this point ;-)  Great 
job.

Eliot

---

From: Tim Chown <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:34:45 +0000

> in the day makes this all a lot harder.

So maybe it's just easier to negotiate free hotel wireless for the day
before/after IETF, assuming the hotel wlan is provisioned for those
who would be around.

-- 
Tim

---

From: Jeffrey Hutzelman <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 06:33:58 -0400 (EDT)

On Fri, 23 Mar 2007, Bob Hinden wrote:

> harder.

Absolutely true, especially with the sort of network the IETF has, which
is a complex enterprise-grade network with redundant networks, all put
together within a few days and torn down even faster.  However, there is a
certain extent to which portions of this network can be kept alive longer
than others.  In any event, the limiting factors would seem to be when the
network team plans to leave and...

> Normally, the network team has a fixed deadline to be out of
> the hotel space.

... which is the result of the agreement we've negotiated.  Moving the
deadline later is not impossible, though it may be more expensive than
it's worth.  It seems like this is an area in which the IAOC could do some
research.

-- Jeff

---

From: Richard Lamb <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:38:57 -0700

Ditto. Connectivity at this IETF is better than I have had at any 
"commercial" trade show/conference in the US and the auto IPv6 was neat 
too. Thats not something you usually see.

Many Thanks !!!

---

From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 03:44:13 -0700

> it's worth.  It seems like this is an area in which the IAOC could do some

Speaking as a former host and someone who routinetly shipped 300kg of
multicast gear to every ietf for several years... If you can't ship
friday you have to ship on monday in most cases, which means having
people onsite.

---

From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:38:37 -0700 (PDT)

> Thanks for your efforts, and an excellent network all week.

Oh yeah, +1 from me on that point too.  Best yet.

-MSK

---

From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 22:13:24 +0100

On Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 10:55:07AM +0100,
 Morgan Sackett <[email-masked]> wrote 
 a message of 33 lines which said:

> We will be turning down the network starting at noon.

Congratulations for a flawless network. Now, you just have to write a
paper as good as this one :-)

http://www.tummy.com/Community/Articles/pycon2007-network/

PyCon Wireless Network

How do you make 600 Python geeks happy? Well, wireless network access
is a good start...

Last year at PyCon 2006, the hotel ran the wireless network. Despite
our repeatedly telling them that we were going to be heavily using the
wireless network ("No, really, we're going to be heavily using the
wireless network."), they really weren't prepared for our level of
use. We also had problems with their technical support, things like
the DHCP server giving out leases with a gateway in a different
network from the lease, and their support people rebooting APs to
"fix" it (which, not surprisingly, it didn't).

It was so bad last year, that we decided to run our own wireless
network this year. [...]

---

From: Jeffrey Hutzelman <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 17:55:57 -0400 (EDT)

> afternoon at future meetings.

Having said this, I found out this evening that partial network service
was available until around 5pm.  Just another example of the excellent
service we've had this week.

-- Jeff

---

From: "Andrew G. Malis" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 01:18:29 -0400

In my hotel room, the router had an "instant" reboot at about 5:45 PM, and
continued to be free all night.

Cheers,
Andy

---

From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 15:39:55 +0200

At one point, the IETF NOC teams were going to write up their
experiences.  It would be lovely if the Python (or other conferences)
could just say to their hotels:
      "please make sure that your network is RFC50xx compliant"

- -- 
]            Bear: "Me, I'm just the shape of a bear."          |  firewalls  [
]   Michael Richardson,    Xelerance Corporation, Ottawa, ON    |net architect[
] [email-masked]      http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/mcr/ |device driver[
] panic("Just another Debian GNU/Linux using, kernel hacking, security guy"); [

---

From: "Soininen Jonne (Nokia-NET/Espoo)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:49:22 +0300

Hi,

There used to be a document (which has not been updated) on the requirement
of the "terminal room" for the IETF. The draft was mostly about the network
anyways.

The updating of the document stopped, because the requirements where
increasing faster than the people could type and the information in the
document would have been out-dated before it reached RFC. Perhaps the
requirements have become more stable and writing the document might be
possible.

In addition, there is another difficulty to write the document: Some of the
requirements are not easily documentable in portable format. For instance,
the WLAN network requirements should say that you should forget everything
you have learned about setting up WLAN networks and ask the people who has
done this before what actually works and what doesn't in this kind of
environment. Though, it is useful in IETF context, it might not be that
useful outside of it.

I think the main reason for not documenting the networking experiences is
actually time. People are pretty burned out after the meeting. Even they
have said before the meeting that they will document everything, after the
meeting the this promise is often forgotten (been there, done that).

These are no excuses not to do the documentation. Somebody just has to write
it... ;)

Cheers,

Jonne.

On 3/26/07 4:39 PM, "ext Michael Richardson" <[email-masked]>
wrote:

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-- 
Jonne Soininen
Nokia

Tel: +358 40 527 46 34
E-mail: [email-masked]

---

From: Jim Martin <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:36:29 +0200

Actually, this is just /mostly/ right :-)

	There is in fact a document regarding the modern network, but rather  
than in ID format, it's a set of requirements. We (the volunteer  
crew) developed this to aid in the process of generating an RFP for  
the network contractor, and then later as a mechanism to help  
generate quantifiable "scoring" during the evaluation of the  
resultant proposals.

	What we don't have is a document which takes those requirements and  
adds in the hard-won best current practices. We've spoken of  
generating this document many many times, but due to the  
considerations you've mentioned, we've just never gotten to the  
actual /writing/ part.

	- Jim

On Mar 27, 2007, at 12:49 PM, Soininen Jonne (Nokia-NET/Espoo) wrote:

>> ]            Bear: "Me, I'm just the shape of a bear."          |   
>> firewalls
>> [
>> ] [email-masked]      http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/mcr/ | 
>> device
>> driver[
>> ] panic("Just another Debian GNU/Linux using, kernel hacking,  
>> security guy");
>> [
>>
>>
>>

---

From: Tony Hansen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 14:39:55 -0400

Instead of making it an RFC, it seems perfect fodder for an ION.

	Tony Hansen
	[email-masked]

Jim Martin wrote:
> than in ID format, it's a set of requirements. We (the volunteer crew)
> developed this to aid in the process of generating an RFP for the
> network contractor, and then later as a mechanism to help generate
> quantifiable "scoring" during the evaluation of the resultant proposals.
> 
> adds in the hard-won best current practices. We've spoken of generating
> this document many many times, but due to the considerations you've
> mentioned, we've just never gotten to the actual /writing/ part.
> 
>     - Jim
> 
>> --Jonne Soininen

---

From: Tony Hansen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 14:39:55 -0400

Tony Hansen
	[email-masked]

Jim Martin wrote:
>> The updating of the document stopped, because the requiremn.sendmail.com
	l2RJi87F023623
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:40:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [68ATTENDEES] Hilton Prague

On Fri, 23 Mar 2007, Randall Gellens wrote:
> We're all very glad to hear this.  Many others had the same good 
> experiences, but that does not mean that the unfortunate experiences of 
> those who were pickpocketed are invalid.

I never said they are invalid, but I do have trouble swallowing the 
assertion that the entire conference and choice of city was a wash because 
of them, which was the perspective I was getting from prior posts to the 
list.

> While I am of course happy for you that you are not sensitive to smoke, 
> I find it insulting that you seem to think that everyone else is like 
> you; it demeans those who have physical difficulties with smoke.

My mother has a potentially fatal bee allergy.  Were she to come to IETF 
as a contributor during a season when bees are active, I would find it 
absurd of her to assert that the conference facility or the host city 
must guarantee her a bee-free environment in the region of the hotel.

I have some pretty terrible hayfever sometimes during allergy season.  I 
would never consider demanding that we avoid any city with pollens to 
which I am allergic even though their presence in the air would render me 
of limited use to the working groups I wish to attend because I'd be 
reduced to a sneezing mess.  I would either cope with the problem, 
treat the symptoms as best I can, or attend remotely (e.g. via jabber).

> Spoken like someone who is not bothered by it.

Correct, but I've also given examples of things that do bother me a great 
deal which still wouldn't compel me to claim the environment was 
unacceptable for the conference.  Same logic, same opinion.

>>    Would we allow smoking in a non-smoking hotel back home if a delegation
>> of Czechs held a conference there?  Of course not. We're guests in their
>> culture.  "Stop smoking!  We bring a loents where

---

From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 00:06:57 +0100

Hi,

Those documents already exist (both venue and network). I'm taking note
about the comments, as new items such as smoke-free considerations are
coming into the list, and plan to convert them to ION:

http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-palet-ietf-meeting-network-requirements-00.tx
t
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-palet-ietf-meeting-venue-selection-criteria-0
4.txt

Regards,
Jordi

> De: Tony Hansen <[email-masked]>
> Responder a: <[email-masked]>
> Fecha: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 14:39:55 -0400
> Para: <[email-masked]>
> CC: "Soininen Jonne (Nokia-NET/Espoo)" <[email-masked]>
> Asunto: Re: [68ATTENDEES] standards track wireless network
> 

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