Subject: [68ATTENDEES] Hilton Prague

From: Mark Pullen <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 22:55:58 -0400 (EDT)

I'd like to underscore other comments regarding the Hilton Prague.
Considering that Prague prices are still very reasonable for
Europe, the Hilton was anything but reasonable. Then when I checked
out I discovered they had billed 100 Kc per credit card call made.
Also they have a "VAT" which is added on at the end (US style tax)
rather than being included in the bill (European VAT), so the
bottom line is not what you were expecting. And of course the only
taxis they will call for you cost 50% extra. All told, I felt
gouging by Hilton Prague was excessive.

Other than that, I found Prague to be a great location for an IETF
meeting.

Mark

_______________________________________________
68ATTENDEES mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/68attendees

---

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 06:39:23 +0100

> out I discovered they had billed 100 Kc per credit card call made.

To be fair, that is documented on a card in my room, just by the phone.

> bottom line is not what you were expecting. 

Not quite. The room charge listed daily is the total including VAT.
In the summary at the bottom it's broken out separately, but that
is for accounting purposes, for reclaims in cases where VAT
can be reclaimed. That is pretty standard in the EU, where
companies can often reclaim VAT paid on business costs.

> Other than that, I found Prague to be a great location for an IETF

Yes.

     Brian

---

From: Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 01:59:03 -0400

Mark Pullen wrote:

> rather than being included in the bill (European VAT), 

* Above prices include high speed internet, buffet breakfast, city tax 
and service charge and exclude 5% VAT, which is subject to change.
The VAT info was on the ietf.org meeting site.
Ray

> so the

---

From: "Arnoud van Wijk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:27:37 +0100

The high speed internet is only till Friday morning. Then the IETF network
is down.
I am leaving sat afternoon. So, no internet anymore then!
Or was it included then?????

/Arnoud

---

From: "Arnoud van Wijk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:27:37 +0100

/Arnoud

---

From: Janet P Gunn <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 04:28:17 -0400

My only complaint about the Hilton is that there is some kind of 
thermostat on the bath which prevents it from running hot water.

It says "38" (presumably deg C) but it feels just a couple of degrees 
above body temperature (aka "lukewarm").  The tap in the sink doesn't seem 
to have the same problem- the water there is acceptably hot.

Janet

---

From: Ben Campbell <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:32:15 +0100

I believe the indicator is actually a safety latch you can slide to  
the side to move the knob higher than 38. At least mine works that way.

On Mar 23, 2007, at 9:28 AM, Janet P Gunn wrote:

> It says "38" (presumably deg C) but it feels just a couple of  
> degrees above body temperature (aka "lukewarm").  The tap in the  
> sink doesn't seem to have the same problem- the water there is  
> acceptably hot.
>
> Janet

---

From: "Arnoud van Wijk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:41:29 +0100

Indeed just press the button and you can turn more and even have the water
boil the skin of your carcass. :-)

/Arnoud

  _____  

From: Ben Campbell [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: vrijdag 23 maart 2007 9:32
To: Janet P Gunn
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [68ATTENDEES] Hilton Prague

I believe the indicator is actually a safety latch you can slide to the side
to move the knob higher than 38. At least mine works that way.

My only complaint about the Hilton is that there is some kind of thermostat
on the bath which prevents it from running hot water. 

It says "38" (presumably deg C) but it feels just a couple of degrees above
body temperature (aka "lukewarm"). The tap in the sink doesn't seem to have
the same problem- the water there is acceptably hot. 

Janet

68ATTENDEES mailing list

[email-masked]

---

From: "T.J. Kniveton" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:42:15 +0100

I have to agree that the Hilton is a bit ahead of the time.. I think 
they are already charging the prices that will be normal after CZ adopts 
the euro.

Nevertheless, the service I have experienced at the hotel has been 100% 
consistent at "quite good." I just have to remember to avoid eating 
here, or I can blow my entire day's meal budget on a sandwich and coke.

> thermostat on the bath which prevents it from running hot water.
If you press in the lever/catch, you should be able to rotate the heat 
setting up as hot as you like.

TJ

---

From: Richard Pruss <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 18:51:04 +1000

The bar on the tap can be slid to the right which frees the temperature 
control to go much higher than 38 C.

-Ric
Janet P Gunn wrote:
> above body temperature (aka "lukewarm").  The tap in the sink doesn't 
> seem to have the same problem- the water there is acceptably hot.
>
> Janet
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

---

From: Janet P Gunn <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 04:59:50 -0400

Thanks all for solving my problem.  I usually pride myself on being 
"mechanically competent" - and I DID fiddle with it extensively without 
finding a way to release it - but obviously my competence failed me here.

Janet

acceptably hot.

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:16:39 +0100

> thermostat on the bath which prevents it from running hot water.

I had that issue once in Ipswich, and wound up having the hotel  
janitor giggling in my bathroom while teaching me how to take a shower.

The deal is that there are two knobs, one for pressure and one for  
temperature. In this hotel both had buttons, but I don't know the  
function of the button on the pressure knob. The button on the  
temperature knob releases a motion limit - by default you're  
prevented from scalding yourself, but by pressing the button while  
turning the knob you can get the mix anywhere from 100% cold to 100%  
hot.

turns out that system is pretty common outside the US; the US  
manually mixes hot and cold.

---

From: Tony Hansen <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 05:16:21 -0400

The internet connection in your room will still work. It'll ask you if
you're willing to pay $$ for it; click yes. The hotel is supposed to not
charge anything more.

	Tony Hansen
	[email-masked]

Arnoud van Wijk wrote:
> The high speed internet is only till Friday morning. Then the IETF
> network is down. I am leaving sat afternoon. So, no internet anymore
> then! Or was it included then?????

---

From: Gonzalo Camarillo <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:24:32 +0100

The function of the pressure knob is (usually) to limit the amount of 
water you will use by default so that you do not waste too much water 
when taking a shower (a few countries in Europe do not get enough rain 
and need to use water very carefully).

Cheers,

Gonzalo

Fred Baker wrote:
> I had that issue once in Ipswich, and wound up having the hotel janitor 
> giggling in my bathroom while teaching me how to take a shower.
> 
> temperature knob releases a motion limit - by default you're prevented 
> from scalding yourself, but by pressing the button while turning the 
> knob you can get the mix anywhere from 100% cold to 100% hot.
> 
> turns out that system is pretty common outside the US; the US manually 
> mixes hot and cold.
>

---

From: Joao Damas <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:28:47 +0100

On 23 Mar 2007, at 09:28, Janet P Gunn wrote:
> degrees above body temperature (aka "lukewarm").

With normal humans having a body temperature of 37C this seems to  
indicate the tap is quite well calibrated then.

On 23 Mar 2007, at 10:16, Fred Baker wrote:
> function of the button on the pressure knob.

It aims to save water, aka natural resources. Don't worry, one day  
the US will evolve enough to grasp the concept and it will all make  
sense, in the meantime, consider it to be magic ;)

Joao

---

From: Tony Hansen <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 05:16:21 -0400

Tony Hansen
	[email-masked]

---

From: "Eastlake III Donald-LDE008" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 05:44:19 -0400

There are four telephone booths inside the Hilton on the lobby level
just off the elevator foyer from which one can make free calls to any
Czech toll free number, such as the AT&T Czech access number for calls
back to the USA.

Donald

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 12:39 AM
To: Mark Pullen
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [68ATTENDEES] Hilton Prague

Yes.

     Brian

---

From: Janet P Gunn <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 05:41:00 -0400

I have, in fact. already seen the separate "pressure/volume" and 
"temperature" knobs in the US.  Didn't give me a problem, even the first 
time I encountered it.

And I figured out what the temperature limit was doing (even though my 
grasp of C <->F conversion without using a calculator was off by about 
10%) That wasn't a problem. 

It was "how to override the limit" that thwarted me.

Janet

---

From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:36:47 -0700 (PDT)

> here, or I can blow my entire day's meal budget on a sandwich and coke.

+1

Unlike all of the people complaining, I had a terrific visit.  The 
conference was productive, the Hilton staff was friendly and responsive, 
there was hot water aplenty, the food was delicious (especially the giant 
included breakfast buffet), the concierge was very helpful, the room very 
comfortable, and the elevators fast.  I spent a good chunk of time 
yesterday and today walking around all over Prague both in groups or alone 
with my camera out, both by day and by night, and was not pickpocketed, 
harrassed or otherwise bothered by anyone other than the rain today.

I simply avoided smoky areas of the hotel; I find complaints about smoking 
in a country where that's part of the culture to be silly.  Would we allow 
smoking in a non-smoking hotel back home if a delegation of Czechs held a 
conference there?  Of course not.  We're guests in their culture.  "Stop 
smoking!  We bring a lot of money here!" is a singularly western point of 
view and I find it a little embarrassing.

The only gouging I suffered all week was postcards at the hotel shop, but 
that was my own fault.

So, at least from me: Kudos to the Secretariat and to the Hilton.  See you 
in Chicago!

-MSK

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:26:32 -0400

--On Friday, March 23, 2007 10:16 +0100 Fred Baker 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

>> My only complaint about the Hilton is that there is some kind
>> of   thermostat on the bath which prevents it from running
>> hot water.
>
> I had that issue once in Ipswich, and wound up having the
> hotel janitor giggling in my bathroom while teaching me how to
> take a shower.
>
> The deal is that there are two knobs, one for pressure and one
> for temperature. In this hotel both had buttons, but I don't
> know the function of the button on the pressure knob. The
> button on the temperature knob releases a motion limit - by
> default you're prevented from scalding yourself, but by
> pressing the button while turning the knob you can get the mix
> anywhere from 100% cold to 100% hot.

Daily factoid:

I've seen buttons on the volume side with two functions, 
depending on the valve: (i) Aesthetics and symmetry.  If the 
valve is otherwise mostly symmetric and has a release button or 
lever on one side, then there should be one on the other side 
too.   Its actual impact is a no-op.   (ii) if the country 
recommends or requires flow rate limits on the shower, the stop 
valve permits that limited flow to the shower head a system that 
often works much better than inserts with narrow openings in the 
shower head itself.   In those cases, the button or lever 
permits dispensing water at a higher flow level into the bath, 
working either on the honor system or with an interlock with the 
diverter valve.   There are arguably better ways to do this, but 
aesthetics (and fear of excessive knobs) may figure into them.

> manually mixes hot and cold.

These valves, if working well and properly calibrated, actually 
provide temperature-sensitive mixing rather than 
volume-sensitive mixing.  The latter is the traditional method, 
whether accomplished with two knobs or a single volume-mixing 
valve that may have some crude pressure compensation.   In 
situations where cold water temperatures vary significantly 
(with, e.g., weather outside and how far the water flows) or hot 
water does (due to overstressing capacity) they are a real 
luxury.

They are readily available in the US, although rarely from 
do-it-yourself plumbing suppliers.  If my memory is correct, 
they are  very pricey in both the US and Europe.

    john

---

From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 17:14:17 +0100

On Fri, Mar 23, 2007 at 10:16:39AM +0100,
 Fred Baker <[email-masked]> wrote 

> turning the knob you can get the mix anywhere from 100% cold to 100%

There is a very funny and interesting study of bathrooms in Donald
Norman's classical book "The design of everyday things", a book that
every engineer should read.

---

From: Patrik Fältström <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 17:39:16 +0100

On 23 mar 2007, at 17.26, John C Klensin wrote:

> They are readily available in the US, although rarely from do-it- 
> yourself plumbing suppliers.  If my memory is correct, they are   
> very pricey in both the US and Europe.

In Sweden a company called Mora (like the city) introduced  
thermostats 1972, and they are not that expensive. You get one for  
about $150 today (given the low value of the dollar :-) ). Hard for  
me to say whether that is expensive or not, as I think that is what  
you HAVE to pay.

I am sort of surprised every time I get to the US and find newly  
constructed bathrooms that are equipped like they where in Sweden  
some 35 years ago :-)

http://www.moraarmatur.se/

    Patrik

---

From: "Michal Krsek" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 17:51:01 +0100

Hello,

> view and I find it a little embarrassing.

after some complains to smoky environment (and because of I simply don't 
like smoky areas), I did some social research for a this problem during 
Tuesday.

Found about 5 smoking people in different locations in the hotel. To be 
absolutelly open, four of them had IETF badge and the last one had his 
laptop open and I saw some IOS specific commands.

I know, five people is not countable amount, but ...

I don't want make a flamewar, just trying to paint rest of the "smoky" 
picture.

            Regards
                Michal Krsek - local non smoking ietf participant

---

From: Otmar Lendl <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 18:00:31 +0100

> constructed bathrooms that are equipped like they where in Sweden  

In my experience, the UK is worse. By far.

Anyway, I'm mainly barging into this thread to add my overall comments:

Perfect network: Thank you!

Good location: Prague is a worthy host of an IETF meeting.

Venue itself: The only complaint I might voice is that such
a new building kind of defeated the charm of being in Prague. 
That was likely unavoidable, though.

The weather: $#^$%. One week earlier would have been perfect,
and probably two weeks later as well. Shucks. 

Social event: Good food, perfect location.

/ol
-- 
-=-  Otmar Lendl  --  [email-masked]  -=-

---

From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:00:26 -0700

At 8:36 AM -0700 3/23/07, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote:

> conference was productive, the Hilton staff was friendly and 
> responsive, there was hot water aplenty, the food was delicious 
> (especially the giant included breakfast buffet), the concierge was 
> very helpful, the room very comfortable, and the elevators fast.  I 
> spent a good chunk of time yesterday and today walking around all 
> over Prague both in groups or alone with my camera out, both by day 
> and by night, and was not pickpocketed, harrassed or otherwise 
> bothered by anyone other than the rain today.

We're all very glad to hear this.  Many others had the same good 
experiences, but that does not mean that the unfortunate experiences 
of those who were pickpocketed are invalid.

>  I simply avoided smoky areas of the hotel;

This is much easier said than done, especially if one is here to 
participate in WGs and the plenary, since the Congress rooms (all 
three) are especially smokey.  Personally, my allergies forced me to 
retreat from both plenary sessions after about 90 minutes, and those 
who saw me know that I was really pushing my limits.  Likewise, the 
hotel's so-called non-smoking restaurant, proudly billed as such, was 
so smokey (because of people just in front of it smoking) that others 
at our working lunch saw my eyes go from normal to extremely 
bloodshot within a few minutes, as the rhinorrhea and breathing 
difficulties made productive work difficult and painful.  The 
mezzanine level rooms were much better than the Congress rooms, but 
still unpleasant.

While I am of course happy for you that you are not sensitive to 
smoke, I find it insulting that you seem to think that everyone else 
is like you; it demeans those who have physical difficulties with 
smoke.

>  I find complaints about smoking in a country where that's part of 
> the culture to be silly.

Spoken like someone who is not bothered by it.  Good for you, but 
please don't let your personal experience blind you to that of others.

>    Would we allow smoking in a non-smoking hotel back home if a 
> delegation of Czechs held a conference there?  Of course not. 
> We're guests in their culture.  "Stop smoking!  We bring a lot of 
> money here!" is a singularly western point of view and I find it a 
> little embarrassing.

Maybe so.  How about "Accept evolving cultural norms, and allow those 
who come to your country to do work (and spend money) to actually do 
that work."?

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
Deja Moo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before.

---

From: Carsten Bormann <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 11:09:49 +0100

On Mar 23 2007, at 23:00, Randall Gellens wrote:

> allergies

Clearly, we need to meet in the antarctica during hay fever season.
(Excuse me while I sneeze.)

Everything has been said, but not yet by me:
This was one of the, if not *the* most productive environment I've  
had at an IETF (out of 41 so far).

My vote is to make Prague the new Minneapolis.

Gruesse, Carsten

PS.: Yes, on the way there we could help the hotel fix a number of  
the problems noted here.

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 12:08:08 +0100

> My vote is to make Prague the new Minneapolis.

while keeping the old minneapolis, and perhaps adding san diego to  
the list. yes.

What site(s) would you suggest in Asia as a to-be-repeated site?

---

From: Ole Jacobsen <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 04:39:11 -0700 (PDT)

Asia suggestions:

- Tokyo/Yokohama area: many choices. Other parts of Japan would work 
  too, but I suppose it could be argued that they "add another hop"
  for International travellers. Many flights to Tokyo, Osaka, or
  Nagoya. Specifically, Pacifico Yokohama is well-known to many of
  us as a fine facility.

- Kuala Lumpur: Has a great convention center (probably more than one
  but anyway). Has low-cost hotels which are really nice, is easy to
  get to from most parts of the world, either directly or via 
  Singapore.

- Singapore: Many fine hotels and convention facilities, probably more
  expensive than KL, but certainly workable.

- Taipei: TWNIC has hosted several APNIC meetings here and will host
  their second APRICOT in Taipei in 2008. Again nice facilities and
  a host (without having asked them) who is more than capable of doing
  a meeting the size of the IETF. Big added bonus: If there is only
  "one China" then meeting in Taipei means we meet in China with none
  of the negotiations you've faced with the other China. How's that 
  for "sending a message" ? ;-)

- Hong Kong: Same bonus as above, at least two convention centers 
  (assuming we need that), many flights to all of the world. I do
  hear that the major venues are booked out many years in advance 
  however. Did I mention it's in China? :-)

- Seoul: Been there, done that, but it worked pretty well. It's nice 
  to be in a place where LCD panels grow on trees... Could have chosen
  a slightly warmer time of the year perhaps. Again many flight 
  connections.

Ole

Ole J. Jacobsen
Editor and Publisher,  The Internet Protocol Journal
Cisco Systems
Tel: +1 408-527-8972   GSM: +1 415-370-4628
E-mail: [email-masked]  URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007, Fred Baker wrote:

> while keeping the old minneapolis, and perhaps adding san diego to the list.
> yes.
>

---

From: Tony Li <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 06:29:08 -0700

On Mar 23, 2007, at 2:28 AM, Joao Damas wrote:

> Don't worry, one day the US will evolve enough to grasp the concept  
> and it will all make sense, in the meantime, consider it to be  
> magic ;)

Since we seem to be using this list for some cross-cultural  
education....

Those of us living in the arid southwest are well-aware of water  
conservation techniques.  The solutions are slightly different, since  
the problem is slightly different.  In the US, the biggest waste of  
water is in irrigation.  For the typical suburban family, this is  
usually the sprinkler system that maintains the lawn.  Since this is  
typically automated, we rely on economic means (i.e., the water bill)  
to apportion pain commensurate to waste.  Other water conservation  
techniques that are employed are low-flow shower heads, low-flow  
toilets, regulations on when and how you may water your lawn or wash  
your car, and in extreme cases of water abuse, flow restrictors that  
basically turn the pipe coming into your house into a straw.

Regards,
Tony

---

From: Tim Chown <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 12:07:49 +0100

> while keeping the old minneapolis, and perhaps adding san diego to  

Oddly I was speaking to someone on the last day and said 'Prague could
be the new Minneapolis'... I really liked the venue.   It had plenty
of space, lots of local places to get good food (for 3x the quality and
1/3 the price of the hotel itself :) for ad-hoc meetings, was sufficiently 
compact to get around quickly, and was topped off by excellent logistics 
including the very robust WLAN.

That's the second event I've attended in Prague, and both were very
enjoyable for me.   Great city and friendly people.

BTW I'm not a smoker, and have had health issues with secondary smoke,
but I think it's quite possible with the hotel's support to minimise the
effects while allowing the smokers to do their thing.   I wouldn't want
that issue to be a blocker on returning to somewhere like Prague one day
(but with the Czech Republic now being in the EU it's not unlikely that
EU legislation will lead to some type of ban soon, as it has in other EU 
countries).

-- 
Tim

---

From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 15:31:48 +0200

>>>>> "Mark" == Mark Pullen <[email-masked]> writes:
    Mark> is not what you were expecting. And of course the only taxis
    Mark> they will call for you cost 50% extra. All told, I felt
    Mark> gouging by Hilton Prague was excessive.
 
  I would not have minded being gouged if they'd be up-front about the
costs and stick to them, and also if they'd figure out how to get the
smoke smell out of the rooms. 

  I will return to Prague if there an IETF in Prague. (Perhaps March was
a poorish choice...) 

  I will not stay in the Prague Hilton again until I get some kind of
guarantee that my room won't smell.

- -- 
]            Bear: "Me, I'm just the shape of a bear."          |  firewalls  [
]   Michael Richardson,    Xelerance Corporation, Ottawa, ON    |net architect[
] [email-masked]      http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/mcr/ |device driver[
] panic("Just another Debian GNU/Linux using, kernel hacking, security guy"); [

---

From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:01:14 -0700

I would second that, I very much appreciated Prague as a venue.

My main complaint in fact was that due to my travel and meeting schedule I was unable to see anything much of Prague itself.

The hotels are indeed overpriced by local standards, particularly for the restauants etc. but they are still somewhat cheaper than many North American Venues ans considerably cheaper than New York, London etc.

I much prefer Prague at any time of the year to Minneapolis in winter.

> From: Tim Chown [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 7:08 AM
> To: [email-masked]
> > while keeping the old minneapolis, and perhaps adding san 
> diego to the 
> > list. yes.
> 
> 1/3 the price of the hotel itself :) for ad-hoc meetings, was 
> sufficiently compact to get around quickly, and was topped 
> off by excellent logistics including the very robust WLAN.
> 
> BTW I'm not a smoker, and have had health issues with 
> secondary smoke, but I think it's quite possible with the 
> hotel's support to minimise the
> that issue to be a blocker on returning to somewhere like 
> Prague one day (but with the Czech Republic now being in the 
> EU it's not unlikely that EU legislation will lead to some 
> type of ban soon, as it has in other EU countries).
> 
> --
> Tim
>

---

From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:58:36 -0700

At 12:07 PM +0100 3/26/07, Tim Chown wrote:

>  I think it's quite possible with the hotel's support to minimise the
>  effects while allowing the smokers to do their thing.

True, and John Klensin has suggested a few techniques that can be used.

>     I wouldn't want

Also true, but since there are already countries that have adopted 
indoor smoking bans, maybe those sites should be ranked higher on the 
list than those that haven't?

-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
There are two kinds of light--the glow that illuminates,
and the glare that obscures.            --James Thurber

---

From: Otmar Lendl <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:22:57 +0200

> list than those that haven't?

Recently, Italy, Ireland, and Scotland have adopted such bans. Germany
is thinking about it and in Austria local politicians have voiced
support for such a move. (that will take ages to get through)

So what about Dublin or Edinburgh during summer or Rome in the winter?
I've no idea about suitable hotels and one must make sure that the
meeting isn't quite at the height of the tourist season.

Another comment Re: smoking: Most of the smokers I saw in the Hilton
(especially those <censored> who dared to smoke at the restaurant
entrance) were in fact other IETF attendees. So the hotel needs to
protect the smoke-averse attendees primarily from the IETF smoking
contigent.

/ol (actually quite aggressive non-smoker, but harmless compared to what I've seen here)
-- 
-=-  Otmar Lendl  --  [email-masked]  -=-

---

From: "David T. Perkins" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:35:15 -0700 (PDT)

HI,

Please consider people on a budget....

For Prague, I stayed at a small hotel within a 10 minute walk
that cost only US$ 40 per night. There were plenty of easily walkable
places to eat (and get beer) for a reasonable cost. I didn't have
any local transportation costs, other than a taxi to/from the
airport (better to be safe and on time than to save money
in a local where you don't know or speak the language!)
My air from San Francisco was about US$800. The IETF conference
fee was more than my food and lodging costs!
I found Prague quite interesting, and other than the
smoke, in a word fantastic.

I don't particularily like San Diego due to the high cost of
local lodging, and the distance to places to eat.

Of course if I was setting the local, I'd choose Cozumel
in November/December (it has good Internet connectivity,
and that date is out of the hurricane season, and still
during low rate season. Plus, there are lots of places
to eat, drink, and inexpensive places to stay.) The only
problem will be convincing your manager the trip is business
and not a junket.

Another place that should be a winner is Madrid.

Regards,
/david t. perkins