Subject: [68ATTENDEES] Security issue in the subway

From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 16:43:35 +0100

Just for information, not to participate to the discussion about the
choice of meeting venues, I was assaulted in the subway between the
airport and the city center. It was not a subtile or clever stealing
scheme, far from it. Four buy guys close around me, one shouting at me
and one seizing my bag. Strangely, they stole nothing. I thought they
were trying to distract me to take my wallet but nothing was taken. I
even wandered wether it was not an attack at all but may be some
misunderstading problem (but I doubt it).

I do not draw any general conclusions about the relative safeness of
Prague vs. Chicago or Washington (one individual experience is not a
serious survey) but I just wanted to remind everyone that the world is
a dangerous place and that it is not safe to conspicuously display an
expensive watch or laptop.

_______________________________________________
68ATTENDEES mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/68attendees

---

From: "Michal Krsek" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:03:46 +0100

Hi Stephane,
sorry for that.

There are rare incidents reported on this line - on tourists looking 
jet-lagged and departing from airport :-( I use this line both sides and 
never seen such as incident.

Another risky ways as I was reported are trams 22 or 23 to go to the Prague 
castle.

The only good message is that they "only" want to stole your belonging not 
to hurt you.

In any case, IETF has my phone and can I be contacted by the staff to help 
the community with potential police interaction.

       Sorry again
            Michal

----- Original Message ----- 

[email-masked]; Sat, 17 Mar 2007 12:04:44 -0400
From: "Michal Krsek" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [68ATTENDEES] Security issue in the subway
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:03:46 +0100
Cc: 

Hi Stephane,
sorry for that.

There are rare incidents reported on this line - on tourists looking 
jet-lagged and departing from airport :-( I use this line both sides and 
never seen such as incident.

Another risky ways as I was reported are trams 22 or 23 to go to the Prague 
castle.

The only good message is that they "only" want to stole your belonging not 
to hurt you.

In any case, IETF has my phone and can I be contacted by the staff to help 
the community with potential police interaction.

       Sorry again
            Michal

---

From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:16:31 +0100

On Sat, Mar 17, 2007 at 05:03:46PM +0100,
 Michal Krsek <[email-masked]> wrote 
 a message of 40 lines which said:

> I use this line both sides and never seen such as incident.

I know, I live in Paris for thirty years and nobody ever stole
anything from me, while it seems that every IETFer at the Paris
meeting was pickpocketed :-)

I'm a reader of Bruce Schneier so I know the difference between
perception of danger and its reality :-)

---

From: "Michal Krsek" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 18:21:45 +0100

Hello,
there is a webpage that describes some security risks at Prague.

I think these risks are almost the same as any large city, but probably it 
will be valuable for ietf68 participants to recall them. Please see:
http://www.myczechrepublic.com/prague/safety.html

                Regards
                    Michal

---

From: "Yi Zhao" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:24:59 -0500

I think I shall share with you my experience today in the subway to remind
everyone taking care of your belonging while you travel here in Prague.
While I was stepping into the subway (yellow line) around 5pm, someone
behind me tried pushing me even though there was not crowded at all.
Immediately I moved my right hand to my back pocket where I put my wallet (I
usually put my wallet in front pocket when I travel in a new city, but I
don't know why I didn't do it this time), I felt 3 fingers getting into my
back pocket. I pushed my hand tightly on my wallet not letting it out of my
pocket. Then the situation became even scared, a guy, obviously the thief's
partner, standing on my right hand side put his left arm under my right arm
pushing upward trying to move my right hand away from the back pocket. I
turned looking at him and yelling to him "What the hell are you doing?" to
attract people's attention. After that, both hand and fingers were gone. The
thieves took off the subway next stop.

I lost my luggage last night when I arrived in Prague and had to face the
pickpocket in subway today. What a unique experience! Luckily airline found
my bag in JFK and it's on the way to Prague and I still have my wallet.

Just let people know that be careful while you are traveling here,
especially via public transportation.

Yi

-----Original Message-----
From: Michal Krsek [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: 2007年3月17日 11:04
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [68ATTENDEES] Security issue in the subway

Hi Stephane,
sorry for that.

       Sorry again
            Michal

---

From: "Keith Kyzivat" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 23:02:22 -0400

> my bag in JFK and it's on the way to Prague and I still have my wallet.

Oh joy!
On that note, my sister was mentioning that it's probably a good idea to
keep some cash or an ATM card separate from wallet (in a different pocket).

I'm curious - what airline was it that lost your luggage?

-- 
Keith Kyzivat

SIPez LLC.
SIP VoIP, IM and Presence Consulting
http://www.SIPez.com
tel: +1 (617) 273-4000
_______________________________________________
68ATTENDEES mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/68attendees

---

From: Yangwoo Ko <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 12:21:04 +0900

One of my Chinese attendees reported me that his friend (another 
attendee) lost his wallet at metro (or bus/tram <- this part is not 
clear because I got very short messages through messenger).

Please be careful!

---

From: "Arnoud van Wijk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 13:45:44 +0100

Wow..
Glad that you turned out ok.
I always put my wallet in my front pocket.
Backpockets always ask for trouble. I do not understand why so many keep
them in the backpockets.

But thanks for the warnings, I will be extra alert when using public
transport.

/Arnoud

PS anybody experience a pickpocketer who steals from your front pockets?
Wearing jeans etc?

-----Original Message-----
From: Yi Zhao [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: zaterdag 17 maart 2007 23:25
To: 'Michal Krsek'; [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [68ATTENDEES] Security issue in the subway

Yi

-----Original Message-----
From: Michal Krsek [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: 2007年3月17日 11:04
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [68ATTENDEES] Security issue in the subway

Hi Stephane,
sorry for that.

       Sorry again
            Michal

---

From: Xiaodong Lee <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 21:20:48 +0800

Yi is lucky, but I am not, my wallet was rob and stolen in Mutek
station,

things seems like YI's, but there are more that four theft, even I put
my

wallet in my front pocket. Because I have luggage to care, so that I
have

no more hands to take care my wallet.

The trick is that they will do other things to attract your attention,
and

then crowded with you, and then find chance to steal your wallet or
other

valuable things, that's my summary from my experience, even that's my

first stolen case in my whole life.

My suggestion is that do put your wallet in the inner pocket of your
jacket,

and don't show it and any valuable things in public.

--
-- Xiaodong LEE [The best answer is doing]
+86-10-58813020
mailto:[email-masked]
http://www.lixiaodong.cn

Arnoud van Wijk wrote:

Wow..

/Arnoud

-----Original Message-----
From: Yi Zhao [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: zaterdag 17 maart 2007 23:25
To: 'Michal Krsek'; [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [68ATTENDEES] Security issue in the subway

Yi

-----Original Message-----
From: Michal Krsek [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: 2007年3月17日 11:04
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [68ATTENDEES] Security issue in the subway

Hi Stephane,
sorry for that.

Sorry again
Michal

---

From: "Ersue, Mehmet" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 14:29:21 +0100

In crowded areas it is the best if you put your wallet into the front 
pocket of your throusers and if it's becoming dangerous put your 
hand into your pocket too.

Mehmet 

________________________________

From: Xiaodong Lee [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 2:21 PM
To: Arnoud van Wijk
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [68ATTENDEES] Security issue in the subway

	Yi is lucky, but I am not, my wallet was rob and stolen in Mutek station,
	things seems like YI's, but there are more that four theft, even I put my
	wallet in my front pocket. Because I have luggage to care, so that I have
	no more hands to take care my wallet. 
	
	The trick is that they will do other things to attract your attention, and
	then crowded with you, and then find chance to steal your wallet or other
	valuable things, that's my summary from my experience, even that's my
	first stolen case in my whole life.
	
	My suggestion is that do put your wallet in the inner pocket of your jacket,
	and don't show it and any valuable things in public.

	Arnoud van Wijk wrote: 

		Wow..

		/Arnoud

		-----Original Message-----
		From: Yi Zhao [mailto:[email-masked]] 
		Sent: zaterdag 17 maart 2007 23:25
		To: 'Michal Krsek'; [email-masked]
		Subject: RE: [68ATTENDEES] Security issue in the subway

		
		
		Yi
		
		-----Original Message-----
		From: Michal Krsek [mailto:[email-masked]] 
		Sent: 2007年3月17日 11:04
		To: [email-masked]
		Subject: Re: [68ATTENDEES] Security issue in the subway
		
		Hi Stephane,
		sorry for that.

		

		       Sorry again
		            Michal

---

From: Edward Lewis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:00:03 +0100

>The trick is that they will do other things to attract your attention, and

That's what you have to be careful of, that's something often 
overlooked when thinking about security.  More so than just direct 
theft or even more so than overpowering you, it's the distraction.  I 
have heard about incidents in other locations at other meetings too. 
I have heard of rings that use children to cause accidents, as the 
adults come to assist you, what they really want is to get close 
enough to pick your pockets.  People are less likely to yell for 
police help when the contact is a child spilling a drink on you.

When you are travelling out of an airport you are more exposed to 
theft and are an obvious target.  First you have all your valuables 
and are loaded down with weight.  Second you are defenseless (you 
probably don't have any weapon.)  Third you are probably fatigued 
from a long trip.  Fourth, you probably have something worth 
stealing.  This is why the extra cost of hotel arranged transport is 
justifiable over public transit and why I'd prefer to get to the 
hotel, put the luggage away and use the safe before even venturing to 
the ATM (where you have your wallet out and your bags at your feet).

I used to be a big fan of "roughing it", using cheap mass transit on 
arrival, as part of the cultural immersion exercise.  But I think it 
is too risky.  And what's the cost of a ride to the hotel compared to 
airfare, hotel room, and conference fees?

-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Sarcasm doesn't scale.

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:12:32 -0400

My son keeps his wallet on a chain,  a good idea in many areas.

August, 2005, he and I were returning from U Sudu (cool Bar in the  
catacombs, BTW) at about 1:00 AM and
being harrassed by the pimps in Wenceslas Square. One guy was  
particularly obnoxious; in our face and
pitching us in English, and we were insulting him back in Italian  
while walking fast towards the Stare Mesto.
He then grabbed my son's wallet, pivoted, and went fast in the other  
direction... about 2 meters.

My son then just flicked the wallet out of his hands. The look on  
that guy's face when he was stopped short and the wallet flew away  
from him was worth the hassle.

Regards
Marshall

On Mar 18, 2007, at 9:29 AM, Ersue, Mehmet wrote:

> -- -- Xiaodong LEE [The best answer is doing] +86-10-58813020  
> mailto:[email-masked] http://www.lixiaodong.cn
>
> Arnoud van Wijk wrote:
>> Wow.. Glad that you turned out ok. I always put my wallet in my  
>> front pocket. Backpockets always ask for trouble. I do not  
>> understand why so many keep them in the backpockets. But thanks  
>> for the warnings, I will be extra alert when using public  
>> transport. /Arnoud PS anybody experience a pickpocketer who steals  
>> from your front pockets? Wearing jeans etc? -----Original  
>> Message----- From: Yi Zhao [mailto:[email-masked]] Sent:  
>> zaterdag 17 maart 2007 23:25 To: 'Michal Krsek';  
>> [email-masked] Subject: RE: [68ATTENDEES] Security issue in  
>> the subway I think I shall share with you my experience today in  
>> the subway to remind everyone taking care of your belonging while  
>> you travel here in Prague. While I was stepping into the subway  
>> (yellow line) around 5pm, someone behind me tried pushing me even  
>> though there was not crowded at all. Immediately I moved my right  
>> hand to my back pocket where I put my wallet (I usually put my  
>> wallet in front pocket when I travel in a new city, but I don't  
>> know why I didn't do it this time), I felt 3 fingers getting into  
>> my back pocket. I pushed my hand tightly on my wallet not letting  
>> it out of my pocket. Then the situation became even scared, a guy,  
>> obviously the thief's partner, standing on my right hand side put  
>> his left arm under my right arm pushing upward trying to move my  
>> right hand away from the back pocket. I turned looking at him and  
>> yelling to him "What the hell are you doing?" to attract people's  
>> attention. After that, both hand and fingers were gone. The  
>> thieves took off the subway next stop. I lost my luggage last  
>> night when I arrived in Prague and had to face the pickpocket in  
>> subway today. What a unique experience! Luckily airline found my  
>> bag in JFK and it's on the way to Prague and I still have my  
>> wallet. Just let people know that be careful while you are  
>> traveling here, especially via public transportation. Yi ----- 
>> Original Message----- From: Michal Krsek [mailto:[email-masked]]   
>> Sent: 2007年3月17日 11:04 To: [email-masked] Subject: Re:  
>> [68ATTENDEES] Security issue in the subway Hi Stephane, sorry for  
>> that. There are rare incidents reported on this line - on tourists  
>> looking jet-lagged and departing from airport :-( I use this line  
>> both sides and never seen such as incident. Another risky ways as  
>> I was reported are trams 22 or 23 to go to the Prague castle. The  
>> only good message is that they "only" want to stole your belonging  
>> not to hurt you. In any case, IETF has my phone and can I be  
>> contacted by the staff to help the community with potential police  
>> interaction. Sorry again Michal ----- Original Message -----
>>> Just for information, not to participate to the discussion about  
>>> the choice of meeting venues, I was assaulted in the subway  
>>> between the airport and the city center. It was not a subtile or  
>>> clever stealing scheme, far from it. Four buy guys close around  
>>> me, one shouting at me and one seizing my bag. Strangely, they  
>>> stole nothing. I thought they were trying to distract me to take  
>>> my wallet but nothing was taken. I even wandered wether it was  
>>> not an attack at all but may be some misunderstading problem (but  
>>> I doubt it). I do not draw any general conclusions about the  
>>> relative safeness of Prague vs. Chicago or Washington (one  
>>> individual experience is not a serious survey) but I just wanted  
>>> to remind everyone that the world is a dangerous place and that  
>>> it is not safe to conspicuously display an expensive watch or  
>>> laptop. _______________________________________________  
>>> 68ATTENDEES mailing list [email-masked] https:// 
>>> www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/68attendees
>> _______________________________________________ 68ATTENDEES  
>> mailing list [email-masked] https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/ 
>> listinfo/68attendees  
>> _______________________________________________ 68ATTENDEES  
>> mailing list [email-masked] https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/ 
>> listinfo/68attendees  
>> _______________________________________________ 68ATTENDEES  
>> mailing list [email-masked] https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/ 
>> listinfo/68attendees

---

From: "Clint Chaplin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:25:42 -0700

Yes.

In Vienna, of all places.  Was taking the transport system, and was
moving towards the exit because it was my stop.  Felt something in my
front pocket, went to put my hand in my pocket, and found that there
was a foreign hand just withdrawing.  Didn't get anything; whatever
they had snagged enough that they didn't want to try any further.
Female teenager, hiding hand with scarf.  It seems that I threw them
off by moving to get off.  Even weirder; it turned out I'd taken the
wrong stop.  When I went back to get on to get to the right stop, a
whole band, including mine, were on the platform for the other
direction, clustering, and I'm assuming seeing what they all got.
They quickly scattered when I started taking pictures.

-- 
Clint (JOATMON) Chaplin
Principal Engineer
Corporate Standardization (US)
SISA

---

From: Yi Zhao <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:08:08 -0500

Xiaodong, sorry to hear that happened to you as well. This is the same
subway station that I ran into those thefts, probably the same people that
robbed you. I recalled now that there were at least 3 people, one behind,
one on left and one on right to push me.

Yi Zhao, 

  _____  

Sent: 2007年3月18日 8:21

Arnoud van Wijk wrote: 

Wow..

/Arnoud

-----Original Message-----
From: Yi Zhao [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: zaterdag 17 maart 2007 23:25
To: 'Michal Krsek'; [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [68ATTENDEES] Security issue in the subway

 
 
Yi
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Michal Krsek [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: 2007年3月17日 11:04
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [68ATTENDEES] Security issue in the subway
 
Hi Stephane,
sorry for that.

 

       Sorry again
            Michal

---

From: "Thomas Walsh" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 16:14:48 -0400

Today at about 2 PM there were two very visible uniformed and well armed Metro police on the Mustek subway platform.  They impressed me as paying close attention to everyone.  

From: Yi Zhao [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 9:08 AM
To: [email-masked]; 'Arnoud van Wijk'
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [68ATTENDEES] Security issue in the subway

Xiaodong, sorry to hear that happened to you as well. This is the same subway station that I ran into those thefts, probably the same people that robbed you. I recalled now that there were at least 3 people, one behind, one on left and one on right to push me.

Yi Zhao, 

Arnoud van Wijk wrote: 

Wow..

/Arnoud

-----Original Message-----
From: Yi Zhao [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: zaterdag 17 maart 2007 23:25
To: 'Michal Krsek'; [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [68ATTENDEES] Security issue in the subway

 
 
Yi
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Michal Krsek [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: 2007年3月17日 11:04
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [68ATTENDEES] Security issue in the subway
 
Hi Stephane,
sorry for that.

 

       Sorry again
            Michal