Subject: RE: [69ATTENDEES] Meetings in other regions

From: "Antoin Verschuren" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:32:28 +0200

Shane Kerr wrote:
> 
> 	> The other issue I see is that we really need to have an IETF in
> 	regions such > as Latin America and Africa.
> 
> 	Why?

1. Because it cannot be worse than a meeting in the US
2. It will be cheaper for 50% to attend
3. It will give more people the opportunity to attend
4. It's fair to give the US people the opportunity to see there's an outside world and culture
5. We might even smoke in the lobby again :-)
6. We might get healthy food
7. There might be not so many beggers around as here in Chicago

As for Africa, ICANN had a very good venue in Marrakech. Might want to go back there..

Antoin

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From: Nico <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:39:24 -0500

> 1. Because it cannot be worse than a meeting in the US

I don't think it's that bad.  When we meet in Europe the howls we hear
about Heathrow are deafening, for example.

> 2. It will be cheaper for 50% to attend

Because of relative currency purchasing power?

> 3. It will give more people the opportunity to attend

Who don't attend yet.  This is true, but perhaps they should start with
the mailing lists, like most everyone else.

> 4. It's fair to give the US people the opportunity to see there's an outside world and culture

I reject this stereotype of Americans, particularly American IETF
participants.

> 5. We might even smoke in the lobby again :-)

Certainly not in Buenos Aires.  And I sure hope noone thinks this is a
good reason to host an IETF meeting in any particular place.  The
smoking at the Prague hotel atrium was bad enough, thank you.

> 6. We might get healthy food

IETFers want fast lunches.  Fast food is usually not as good as slow
food.

> 7. There might be not so many beggers around as here in Chicago

Then again...

Nico
--

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From: Thierry Ernst <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:04:45 +0200

>As for Africa, ICANN had a very good venue in Marrakech. Might want to go back there..

I would vote for Marrakech (lovely place) but this would mean that all
IETFers would have a stamp on their passport from a country that would
make US immigration more mistrusted. Even US citizens may have a hard
time crossing the US immigration ;-)

Thierry

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From: Stephan Wenger <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:18:40 -0700

It's actually also a problem in the opposite direction: when arriving  
in Arab countries (perhaps also predominately Muslim countries), and  
your passport contains many US and/or Israel immigration stamps (or,  
god forbid, a visa), you may get subjected to a type of questioning  
which makes the US immigration a quite trivial endeavor.  Happened to  
me only once, but made me to check my options.  As it turns out, that  
at least Germany allows me to have two passports, and use them  
selectively.
Stephan

---

From: Yoav Nir <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:53:09 -0500

And if all you've got is an Israeli passport, well, I guess you'll  
have to miss that IETF meeting.

Seriously, I don't think either Israel or Arab countries are  
acceptable at this point.

On Jul 24, 2007, at 5:18 PM, Stephan Wenger wrote:

> It's actually also a problem in the opposite direction: when  
> arriving in Arab countries (perhaps also predominately Muslim  
> countries), and your passport contains many US and/or Israel  
> immigration stamps (or, god forbid, a visa), you may get subjected  
> to a type of questioning which makes the US immigration a quite  
> trivial endeavor.  Happened to me only once, but made me to check  
> my options.  As it turns out, that at least Germany allows me to  
> have two passports, and use them selectively.
> Stephan
>
>

---

From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:54:10 -0500

I don't believe that's correct. I know lots of people from many countries,
including US, that was in ICANN/Marrakech and never got any issue because
that.

And if you are right and US do that, then it is a VERY SERIOUS issue enough
for the IETF to take the decision of never coming back to US.

Regards,
Jordi

> De: Thierry Ernst <[email-masked]>
> Organización: INRIA
> Responder a: <[email-masked]>
> Fecha: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:04:45 +0200
> Para: <[email-masked]>
> Asunto: Re: [69ATTENDEES] Meetings in other regions
> 
> 

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From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:59:59 -0500

I also doubt this is a general situation. I've traveled to all kind of
countries many times, including several times per year to US, and then
traveled to muslim and arab countries and never got this type of problem.

I also hold two passports (I travel around 40 weeks per year and some times
need to have one passport in a consulate to obtain a VISA, while traveling
with the other), and by chance the passport I used this time to come to US
was not having any arab or muslim or similar stamp, so that was definitively
not the issue I was delayed.

Regards,
Jordi

> De: Stephan Wenger <[email-masked]>
> Fecha: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:18:40 -0700

Bye 6Bone. Hi, IPv6 !
http://www.ipv6day.org

---

From: Nico <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:11:05 -0500

On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 12:12:33AM +0200, Bernie Hoeneisen wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Jul 2007, Nico wrote:
> I'd say nobody is forced to fly via Heathrow (LHR), even if the meeting 
> was in the UK. At least I usually avoid LHR.
> 
> But if the meeting is in the US, non-North-Americans cannot avoid going 
> through the humiliating process of US immagration, which sometimes takes 
> hours...

I don't get to go through it, but I do get to go through intrusive
Canadian immigration.  French immigration has been so trivial that I
barely got an entry stamp in my passport (the officer didn't even bother
to ink the stamp).  Czech immigration was surprisingly intrusive by
comparison.

We should want to hold IETF meetings in countries where immigration is
not a hassle for visitors attending IETF meetings.  I don't see an ideal
location given all the parameters to optimize for.  So I am happy with
the current rotation scheme.

---

From: Mark Andrews <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 15:10:56 +1000

> to ink the stamp).  Czech immigration was surprisingly intrusive by

	I didn't even get a stamp entering France even though I
	presented my passport.

-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: [email-masked]

---

From: Thierry Ernst <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 16:27:18 +0200

>	I didn't even get a stamp entering France even though I

Yes, and this is a well-knwon problem for those who need a permit of
stay in France: when applying, they need a stamp proving the date of
entry in the country, which often they don't have. Then starts the
stamp quest.

So, people in this situation are recommended to ask explicit for the
stamp when they enters the country. When the do so, the immigration
officers usually seem surprised, or even don't have ink to stamp (I
witnessed this once, the ink was dry and the person had to go through 3
immigration officers to get his passport stamped at Charles de Gaulle
Airport).

Thierry

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From: Nico <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 09:31:40 -0500

> entry in the country, which often they don't have. Then starts the

Aha!  That might be the reason, then, for not stamping visitors'
passports: so they can't stay legally.  (But I seriously doubt it.)

(The immig officer who barely stamped my passport barely even looked at
it or at me.  I was astounded.  Still am.)

> immigration officers to get his passport stamped at Charles de Gaulle

That seems to rule out my theory above -- I'd expect the officers to
become obnoxious and intrusive once you ask for a stamp.

Nico
--

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From: Jari Arkko <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 10:02:38 -0500

It was a great social last night. Thanks for the
organizers!

Jari

---

From: "Soininen Jonne (NSN FI/Espoo)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:05:41 +0300

+1

-- 
Jonne Soininen
Nokia Siemens Networks

Tel: +358 40 527 46 34
E-mail: [email-masked]

---

From: Stig Venaas <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 17:37:02 +0200

+1

Certainly one of the best socials I ever attended,

Stig

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From: Miguel Garcia <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:41:43 +0300

+1

/Miguel

-- 
Miguel A. Garcia           tel:+358-50-4804586
Nokia Siemens Networks     Espoo, Finland

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From: Yi Zhao <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 10:54:00 -0500

I agree. Great event! Great music, dance, ... It'd be even better if the
organizer could have indicted in the invitation that ID is required due to
alcohol. I observed several people from Asia (hard to guess the age in
general) had to have extra trip between the hotel and HOB to get their IDs
although girls should be happy to walk extra (I guess) because people
thought they were under 21 :-)

Yi 

-----Original Message-----
From: Jari Arkko [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: 2007年7月25日 10:03
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [69ATTENDEES] Social

Jari

---

From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 12:51:47 -0700

> it or at me.  I was astounded.  Still am.)

The french authorities knew as do the US authorities before your plane
took off for it's destination who was on board... If they wanted to talk
to you, they would have found you. There's no particular reason a
security perimeter needs to be visible to be work unless the principle
goal is theater rather than effectiveness.

---

From: Julien Laganier <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:40:23 +0200

On Wednesday 25 July 2007, Thierry Ernst wrote:
> I would vote for Marrakech (lovely place) but this
> would mean that all IETFers would have a stamp on
> their passport from a country that would make US
> immigration more mistrusted.

FWIW that's never been an issue for me.

--julien

---

From: Jeff Hodges <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 13:05:57 -0700

+1

i haven't done socials for years as gen rule, i did this one cuz of the venue & 
there b music.

turns out Big Fun is the drummer's (Bill Archer) band (i chatted briefly with 
him after show and he said "all I do is music, no day job, get to do what i 
love..."):

http://carmelme.com/billarcher/

http://carmelme.com/bigfun/

=JeffH