Subject: [arch-d] IAB Adoption of draft-arkko-iab-path-signals-collaboration-01

From: Guntur Wiseno Putra <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 18:39:49 +0700

Dear Architecture-discuss,
Toerless, Jari & Tommy,

(As this Internet draft will be expired on April 28th 2022: there remains
time to say things about it.)

 "The internetwork environment consists of hosts connected to networks which
are in turn interconnected via gateways". *1.

"Environment": surroundings, circumstances, influences*2.

As ecology is related with "environment"*3.

While there are readings on it*4.

May we work on such an analytics of resemblances (convinientia, aemulation,
analogy, sympathy-antipathy)*5 for "Internet environment", as it is about
an "Internet (land)scape" and an "Internet evSolution"...?

NOTES:

1.RFC 793
There is also IEN 122 saying the Catenet as the Internetwork Environment"
(https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien122.txt)

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/
0Gn1PekFNgMfebaCz1pVK2HNCVk/

2. (Green-Yellow) Oxford English dictionary

3. The term "oikos" of "ecology" takes us to encounters among others with
economy, "economics", "ecosophy", "ecocriticism", "ecodeconstruction"...
 (PDF Drive may help (https://www.pdfdrive.com))

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/F
L65uhI0QqVzAMQf5Zq9zbHlKK0/
4. PDF Drive may help (https://www.pdfdrive.com)

5. (My machine-based note) Michel Foucault, "The Order of Things", chapter
"The Prose of the World"
 (PDF Drive may help (https://www.pdfdrive.com)

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Rabu, 17 November 2021, Guntur Wiseno Putra <[email-masked]>
menulis:

> Dear architecture-discuss,
> Toerless, Jari, & Tommy
>
>
> Of signaling, of signing the internetwork system which is of the Internet
> environment as one of the Internet(land)scape*1.
>
> T. Berners-Lee said about the Internet and the Eorkd Wide Web as the
> interoperability of languages, such a networking of languages --saying
> software work with the supports of hardwares. Yet language is about sign*2.
>
> M. Foucault's discourse-based archaeology finded that the 16th century
> European "episteme" taught us about "networks of signs" as the space of
> resemblance (referring to principles "convinientia", "aemulatio",
> "analogie" and "sympathie"). Hermeneutics and semiology were superimposed
> in the forms of similitude. Thus there were hermenutics of resemblance and
> semiology of signature*3.
>
> Yet there was "an architecture of signature" in relation with networked
> city*4.
>
> There may be matters of "networks evSolution", of the "Internet
> evSolution"...*5
>
>
> Regard,
> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>
>
> Notes:
>
> 1) "The internetwork environment consists of hosts connected to networks which
> are in turn interconnected via gateways".
>
> https://www.rfc-editor/rfc/rfc793.txt
>
> Thus we have combinations:
> - architectural ecology of the Internet(work)-based landscape
> - architectural ecology of the land-based Internet(work)scape
> - ecological architecture of  the Internet(work)-based landscape
> - ecological architecture of the land-based Internet(work)scape
>
> But, there are other kinds of environments besides those of the Internet and of land.
>
>
> At least there are the "Deep Ecology - a New Paradigm" (chapter 1 of "The Web of Life by Fritjof Capra) and "Sustaining the Web of Life: Science of Ecology, Systems Ecology, and Ecological Sustainability (Part IV of "The Systems View of Life" by Fritjof Capra and Piere Luigi Luisi.
>
> https://www.pdfdrive.com/the-web-of-life-a-new-scientific-understanding-of-living-systems-e157334927.html
>
> https://www.pdfdrive.com/the-systems-view-of-life-a-unifying-vision-e195169892.html
>
>
> Yet Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari said about "milieu" built as a model of deterritorialization by the Greeks for their earth of philosophy: Territory and the Earth is a place where act of thinking occurs. The Earth is in the constant movement of deterritorialization --crustacheas walk in the bottom of waters and knights trace celestial ways. The Earth and territory are two components with two zones of vaguenes "deterritorialization" and reterritorialization". (Chapter 4. "Geophilosophy" of "What is Philosophy"?)
>
> 2) "The Internet works because of interoperability between different
> computers, despite different hardware, operating systems, local language
> context, and software supplier. Users of the web sign on to the use of
> these languages when they use the Internet". (TBL, "Stack of
> Specifications")
> https://w3.org/DesignIssues/Stack.html
>
> 3)(A machine-based copy for) Michel Foucault, "The Order of Things" ch.
> "The Prose of the World"
>
> 4) Castells, M., "Networked City: Resaux, espace, societe) supposedly
> concerning with network art. (Supposedly this is the address:)
> https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/networked-city-reseaux
> -espace-societe/
>
> 5)
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/q
> 8Ons4idGc1iVJEE_7pGki69CVI/
>
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/E
> R6_tSAKTsHYkspABZ-Gva9HJdI/
>
>
> Pada Sabtu, 13 November 2021, Jari Arkko <[email-masked]> menulis:
>
>> Toerless:
>>
>> Thanks for these extensive comments. Much appreciated!
>>
>> I need to read this with careful thought, but I think I do agree with
>> many of your points (of course there may be a few that need discussion :-) )
>>
>> Jari
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Architecture-discuss mailing list
>> [email-masked]
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss
>>
>

---

From: "Luis M. Contreras" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 19:04:58 +0100

Hi all,

I have gone through this draft and I have some comments that I would like
to share:

.- The second paragraph on Introduction comments on the fact that various
fields of TCP can be used to derive information and that way of
proceeding is easier and cheaper than any explicit approach. I think this
statement is not correct in the sense that deriving information implies
some processing and inferring of information that does not exist in an
explicit method where direct information communication can avoid any bad
interpretation or inference. Same applies to complexity. For me it is much
more complex to derive behaviors from indirect information than for direct,
cooperative one (where all the information follows some standard without
any possibility of wrong interpretation). I suggest removing that sentence
or to reformulate just the other way around.

- When referring to the network, the draft refers basically to path
elements, which can be interpreted as network nodes. I assume that control
elements or management systems could be also part of the elements
considered in the draft, but it would be probably good to make an explicit
statement in this respect, so making clear that either network nodes or
control/management systems can be part of the interaction with senders are
receivers.

- In the paragraph just before sub-section 3.1 it is mentioned the term
"path function". It is not clear to me the meaning of that term in the
context of the draft.

- The 4th paragraph in section 3.4 states "It may also have undesirable
economic consequences, such as extra charges for the consumer from a
priority service where a regular service would have worked." In this
particular case, what is the rationale for the application in using some
priority? I think that the intended collaboration can precisely promote
incentives to save scarce resources, especially in critical situations (see
for instance RFC9075).

- Last sentence of section 3.5 states that "our recommendation is to employ
very targeted, minimal information carriage mechanisms". Linked with my
comment before, for control/management systems (controlling the network
nodes) such minimal information could be easily defined by means of APIs in
the interaction with senders and receivers. So adding an explicit mention
to this as further work can help to develop such collaborative ways of
interaction.

- Further work section, in its last bullet, makes an explicit reference to
"Sharing information from networks to applications' '. In my opinion also
an statement in the sense of "Sharing information from applications to
network" should be also added, since having both mechanisms can be
beneficial to the overall purpose of collaboration for improving service
expectation.

Thanks

Best regards

Luis

El mié, 10 nov 2021 a las 18:10, IAB Executive Administrative Manager (<
[email-masked]>) escribió:

> The IAB will discuss adoption of
> draft-arkko-iab-path-signals-collaboration-01 (Considerations on
> Application - Network Collaboration Using Path Signals) on the IAB stream
> at its meeting on 2021-11-17.
>
> The draft can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-arkko-iab-path-signals-collaboration/
>
> The agenda for the meeting will be posted 48 hours ahead of the meeting
> here: https://www.iab.org/wiki/index.php/Agenda
>
> Feedback about this draft can be sent in response to this mail on
> [email-masked], or to the IAB directly at [email-masked].
>

-- 
___________________________________________
Luis M. Contreras
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
Global CTIO unit / Telefonica