Subject: [arch-d] FYI: Future Directions for Internet Researchers Panel

From: Toerless Eckert <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 02:17:51 +0100

I hope this is not considered spam for these lists, else i apologize.

https://netsvo.wpcomstaging.com/events/upcoming-workshops/future-directions-for-internet-researchers-panel/
  January 10, 2022
  8:00AM - 9:30AM Pacific Time, 11:00AM – 12:30PM Eastern Time
  Main Speakers: Vinton Cerf, Alberto Leon-Garcia, Jennifer Rexford, Amin Vahdat

[ I think you need to click on the register URL and hopefully you will
  receive some information then. I did not receive any reply after a day though...]

Cheers
    Toerless

---

From: Guntur Wiseno Putra <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 09:39:40 +0700

Dear Toerless, Architecture-discuss &
IRTF-discuss,

As a kind of abstraction it supposedly seems good*1 in relation with the
future, the planning, the programming, of the Internet (economy/ecology):
what Derrida himself said on "deconstruction":

"What is called "deconstruction"--and I will be very sketchy here, because
time does
not permit detailed analyses--has never, never opposed institutions as
such,
philosophy as such, discipline as such. Nevertheless, as you rightly said,
it is another
thing for me to be doing what I am doing here. Because, however affirmative
deconstruction is, it is affirmative in a way that is not simply positive,
not simply
conservative, not simply a way of repeating the given institution. I think
that the life of an institution implies that we are able to criticize, to
transform, to
open the institution to its own future. The paradox in the instituting
moment of an
institution is that, at the same time that it starts something new, it also
continues
something, is true to the memory of the past, to a heritage, to something
we receive
from the past, from our predecessors, from the culture. If an institution
is to be an
institution, it must to some extent break with the past, keep the memory of
the past,
while inaugurating something absolutely new [cf. PdS139/ Points130-131].
So, I am
convinced that today, although ((a ))program to some extent looks like
other, similar
programs, it does something absolutely new. The indication of this is found
not
simply in the structural organization of the program, but in the work, in
the content of
the work, of those who will run this program, the new themes. (()) they
are not simply reproducing, that they are trying to open something new and
something
original, something that hasn't been done in that way in other, similar
((places)) or
programs. So the paradox is that the instituting moment in an institution
is violent in a
way, violent because it has no guarantee. Although it follows the premises
of the past,
it starts something absolutely new, and this newness, this novelty, is a
risk, is
something that has to be risky, and it is violent because it is guaranteed
by no
previous rules. So, at the same time, you have to follow the rule and to
invent a new
rule, a new norm, a new criterion, a new law [cf. FL 50-52/ DPJ23]. That's
why the
moment of institution is so dangerous at the same time. One should not have
an
absolute guarantee, an absolute norm; we have to invent the rules. I am
sure that the
responsibility that is taken ((ones working on a program)) implies that
they
give themselves the new rule. There is no responsibility, no decision,
without this
inauguration, this absolute break. That is what deconstruction is made of:
not the
mixture but the tension between memory, fidelity, the preservation of
something that
has been given to us, and, at the same time, heterogeneity, something
absolutely new,
and a break. The condition of this performative success, which is never
guaranteed, is
the alliance of these to newness".

This one may render ones to thinking on deconstructive concepts. Is the
Deleuzo-Guattarian notion on "concept" not about a notion on deconstructive
concepts (which are of cocepts that have histories and "becomings"; of ones
having heterogen yet inseparable components; of ones as points of
connections, condensation and associations of their components, as
heterogenesis and ordinals)...*2?

Yet, Foucault's archaelogy of human sciences finded out that 17th-18th
century episteme, which was of "representation", was featured by such a
thought which is of deconstruction: "An arbitrary system of signs must
permit analysis of things  into their simplest elements; it must be capable
of decomposing them into their very origins; but it must also demonstrate
how combinations of those elements are possible, and permit the ideal
genesis of the complexity of things".

NOTES:
*1 adding words to my previous ones:
- on Covid 19 pandemic as a critical events in relation with Internet
economy/ecology and its architecture (which is of  having citical moments
of questioning on "evidences" --thus related with forensics (I refer to
Sammons, J.' "Digital Forensics ..."

https://www.pdfdrive.com/the-basics-of-digital-forensics-the-primer-for-getting-started-in-digital-forensics-e162316939.html
)

IAB Adoption of draft-arkko-iab-path-signals-collaboration-01

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/b
Mrv6HvFMyngtKX9V10Ep0Ye3LY/

- on signing, signaling Internet environment ...

 New Version Notification for draft-nottingham-avoiding-inte
rnet-centralization-00.txt

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/6
q9ltd_M7-WAec8ANNnFMHEzbTc/

Of Derrida's words on "deconstruction" above please see: Caputo, J.D (ed.),
"Deconstruction in a Nutshell: a Conversation with Jacques Derrida"

https://www.pdfdrive.com/deconstruction-in-a-nutshell-a-conv
ersation-with-jacques-derrida-e161901356.html

The sign ((...)) means that I made such an editing.

*2 Deleuze, G. & Guattari, F., "What is Philosophy"? Chapter 1. "What is
Concept"? (It is also availabe in PDF Drive library https://www.pdfdrive.com
)

 *3 (My machine-based notes on)  Foucault, M., The Order of Things: an
Archaeology of Human Sciences" Chapyerv3. "Representing" p. 68-9 (It is
also availabe in PDF Drive library https://www.pdfdrive.com)

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Kamis, 06 Januari 2022, Toerless Eckert <[email-masked]> menulis:

> https://netsvo.wpcomstaging.com/events/upcoming-workshops/fu
> ture-directions-for-internet-researchers-panel/
>   January 10, 2022
> _______________________________________________
> Architecture-discuss mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss
>

---

From: Sampo Syreeni <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 03:01:33 +0200 (EET)

On 2022-01-07, Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote:

> "What is called "deconstruction" [...]

Derrida, Guattari nor Deleuze, Fourier, Crenshaw (in intersectionality) 
hardly meant their deconstruction to apply to digital protocol design or 
the broader (network minded) computer science we're talking about here. 
Because they knew nothing of computer code, bits, or anything of 
relevance really.

If that conception of "deconstruction" has anything to do with anything 
within the Internet Architecture realm, I'd say it'd have to be worked 
out within the more policy oriented organs, such as IAB or Internet 
Society. And if it "deconstructed" anything, it'd probably have to do 
with things like how people are supposed to deal with each other in IETF
meetings, or the like. Maybe it'd have a feminist undertow, or an 
analysis of power otherwise.

But it wouldn't and couldn't in any way affect the protocol design we 
talk about here. Because that's just about minimized state machines, 
proof of correctness, and packed/compressed fields in communication.

Applied mathematics knows no gender, nor power. There's no sociology 
there. Here.
-- 
Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - [email-masked], http://decoy.iki.fi/front
+358-40-3751464, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2

---

From: Guntur Wiseno Putra <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 14:20:09 +0700

Dear Sampo,
Toerless, Architecture-discuss, &
IRTF-discuss,

Such abstractions on "deconstruction" in relation with "Internet
economy/ecology/architecture":

The keywords are: Internet, economy, ecology, architecture, deconstruction,
language, sign, history, concept, philosophy, program.

The keywords are about such enterprises for relations between ones and its
surroundings/its environments --or supposedly and anything else (That what
I read from DePorter & Hernacki's "Quantum Learning")--thus Internet and
its environments.

Thus I am thinking of bridges, or networks of conceptual events...:

Umberto Eco's "Semiology & Philosophy" (where among others there are
concerns with language, sign, code, computer, Derrida, Deleuze and
Guattari). (There are works by Eco on Semiology and Semiotics in PDF Drive
library https://www.pdfdrive.com) (I think I ever opened a W3C (Technical
Architecture Group!?)page where a publication on ("extensible languages"!?)
included Eco's )"Theory of Semiotics"!?)

Fritjof Capra's "The Tao of Physics" (where he dealt with "boostrap"
hypothesis, philosophy, modern physics and Eastern Mysticism: as
"bootstrap" hypothesis notion on "phenomena", on "universe" which is of
"interpenetration" has relations with Deleuzo-Guattarian notion on
"concept" --which is of components of a concept as ones defining its
endoconsistency yet the concept has it exoconsistencies with other concept)
(There are works by Capra on ecology in PDF Drive library
https://www.pdfdrive.com)

There are also readings on Derrida, Deleuze and Guattari, and in relation
with "architecture", "environment", "machine". (They are available in PDF
Drive library https://www.pdfdrive.com)

>From "sign"/"language" to "notion/concept" to "the social (institution of a
university's department of philosophy)":

It reminds me also, beside those ones mentioned above, about T.B-Lee's "the
Web as the interoperability of languages" ("Dessign Issues: Architectural
and Philosophical Points" https://www.w3.org). Yet, T. Berners-Lee's
 "hypertextuality" seems resembling at glance with J.Baudrillard's
"hyperreality" considering such a look on "language",  "reality as the
textual" and "society"  --which is not J.Baudrillard's only but refers also
to those may be gathered as main poststructuralist thinkers ("Best, S. &
Kellner, D. "Postmodern Theory..."; I ever sent to the W3 Community Group
on the matter on January 4th-6th 2020 which supposedly this is the address:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-informationarchitecture/2020Jan/
).

Yet, Foucault's notion on a paradigm on "spatial proximity" is applied to
demography and engineering. (Different Space" in "Aesthetics, Methods and
Epistemology") (This may be available in PDF Drive library
https://www.pdfdrive.com)

>From abstractions to concretizations: no gain for no pain...?

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Sabtu, 08 Januari 2022, Sampo Syreeni <[email-masked]> menulis:

> Because they knew nothing of computer code, bits, or anything of relevance
> really.
>
> within the Internet Architecture realm, I'd say it'd have to be worked out
> within the more policy oriented organs, such as IAB or Internet Society.
> And if it "deconstructed" anything, it'd probably have to do with things
> like how people are supposed to deal with each other in IETF
> meetings, or the like. Maybe it'd have a feminist undertow, or an analysis
> of power otherwise.
>
> But it wouldn't and couldn't in any way affect the protocol design we talk
> about here. Because that's just about minimized state machines, proof of
> correctness, and packed/compressed fields in communication.
>