Subject: [Asrg] What can we expect MUAs to do?

From: John Levine <[email-masked]>
Date: 8 Feb 2010 06:08:37 -0000

It seems to me that a lot of these arguments would be easier to resolve
if we had an agreed model of an MUA.  So here's an attempt to do so.
This is a generic model of an MUA, the things we can expect any MUA,
or at least most MUAs to do.  The items with one star are supposed to
be universal, the ones with two stars common but not all MUAs do it

* Log into a POP server and retrieve mail

** Remember the credentials for that server

** Log into several POP servers, remember several sets of credentials

* Log into one or more IMAP servers and do IMAP stuff

** Remember the credentials for that server

** Log into several IMAP servers, remember several sets of credentials

* Compose and send mail (maybe via SUBMIT, maybe hand off to
  another program)

** Use multiple outbound channels

** Some MUAs match up inbound and outbound channels, some don't

* Store mail messages locally

* Display mail messages to the user

** Render HTML

** Make HTTP requests, needed for HTML rendering

Anything important I forgot?

R's,
John

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From: Steve Atkins <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 22:31:43 -0800

> Anything important I forgot?

 * Create and render MIME.

(No, you don't get to call yourself an MUA if you can't do that today).

 ** Support POP / IMAP / ESMTP / SUBMIT over TLS

Cheers,
  Steve

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From: Ian Eiloart <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 12:53:05 +0000

>> be universal, the ones with two stars common but not all MUAs do it

A caveat: there are several POP only mail clients, and there are IMAP only 
mail clients (at least Letters.app is proposed to be IMAP only). You might 
express that as:

* Log into a mailstore and do POP or IMAP stuff.
** Remember the credentials for that server
** Support both POP and IMAP protocols.
** Log in to several mailstores, remember several sets of credentials.

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Ian Eiloart
IT Services, University of Sussex
01273-873148 x3148
For new support requests, see http://www.sussex.ac.uk/its/help/

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From: der Mouse <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 12:47:20 -0500 (EST)

> (No, you don't get to call yourself an MUA if you can't do that today).

Lrrfu, who died and made _you_ god of what constitutes an MUA?!

In particular, this redefinition leaves us with no term for software
that interfaces between the mail system and a user but doesn't jump
through your hoops.  Would you care to fix that, or would you rather
blinker yourself by pretending such software doesn't exist?

John at least said "or at least most" with his list.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
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 X  Against HTML		[email-masked]
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From: Steve Atkins <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 10:10:58 -0800

> blinker yourself by pretending such software doesn't exist?

It doesn't exist in any way relevant to this conversation, which is
the provision of TiS buttons to end user MUAs.

While there are end user MUAs that are in reasonably widespread use
that do not support POP3 or do not support IMAP or do not store
mail messages locally  I don't believe there are any end user MUAs used by
any relevant user demographic that do not support MIME to a reasonable
extent.

Cheers,
  Steve

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From: "Chris Lewis" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 13:46:19 -0500

> any relevant user demographic that do not support MIME to a reasonable

And even if there were, I can't see it that difficult to encorporate a 
fixed template that contains a "fill in the blanks" ARF report wrapped 
in a fixed MIME template.  Possibly under a fixed encoding to side-step 
NLS issues.

IOW: not generalized MIME capability, just some hardcoded hack for abuse 
reports.

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From: John Levine <[email-masked]>
Date: 9 Feb 2010 01:28:58 -0000

>>> (No, you don't get to call yourself an MUA if you can't do that today).

Are there still MUAs used by people other than retro-perverse geeks
that don't render HTML?  Even Alpine does a credible lynx-like
character rendering of HTML parts.

The reason I ask is that if a MUA knows about HTML, that makes it
fairly likely it knows about HTTP, and if it knows about HTTP, that
makes an HTTP transaction a plausible way to send the report.  (The
obvious transaction is HTTP PUT, but I'm not sure how many firewalls
and proxies properly support it.)  This avoids the routing through
strangers problem.

R's,
John

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From: Steve Atkins <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 17:37:18 -0800

> and proxies properly support it.)  This avoids the routing through

I've seen a couple that don't handle HTML, at least not without some external
assistance. I'm also pretty sure there's one or two that handle in-band HTML,
but don't handle anything HTTP-ish. Not mainstream, but not one
guy and a dog either.

HTTP is worse than SMTP, though, as you'd either need to
implement yet another store-and-forward approach or disable the
TiS button unless there's a live internet connection.

Cheers,
  Steve