Subject: tagline -> subtitle

From: Graham <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:37:09 +0000

Any chance of renaming atom:tagline to atom:subtitle? The two sample 
feeds posted today have the taglines "ongoing fragmented essay by Tim 
Bray" and "WebDAV related news". Aren't taglines meant to be funny or 
catchy or clever?

The relevant definitions from dictionary.com are:
  tagline: An often repeated phrase associated with an individual, 
organization, or commercial product; a slogan.
  subtitle: A secondary, usually explanatory title, as of a literary 
work.

The second seems much broader and more useful, and there's nothing 
stopping you using a slogan as subtitle.

Graham

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From: Julian Reschke <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 17:17:58 +0100

Graham wrote:
>  subtitle: A secondary, usually explanatory title, as of a literary work.
> 

+1

-- 
<green/>bytes GmbH -- http://www.greenbytes.de -- tel:+492512807760

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From: Henry Story <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 17:49:03 +0100

Why not go one step further in generality and call the tagline the 
summary? Then we will be closer
to the point I had been making in PaceEntriesAllTheWayDown2, and one 
step closer to showing that
a Feed head is the same structure as an Entry. Or if you go the 
Fielding way with the recursive pace,
that a Feed is a structure that is a subclass of the Entry structure. 
And then we will really cut the
length of the spec down to its core.

Henry Story

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From: Antone Roundy <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:09:02 -0700

> length of the spec down to its core.

Because it's not a summary, which shows that a Feed head isn't quite 
the same thing as an Entry.  It would be conceivable, though perhaps 
not advisable (I'd have to think about it), to add a subtitle element 
to entry, but I can't really see adding a summary element to feed.

>>> feeds posted today have the taglines "ongoing fragmented essay by 
>>> Tim Bray" and "WebDAV related news". Aren't taglines meant to be 
>>> funny or catchy or clever?

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From: Sam Ruby <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 12:14:00 -0500

Henry Story wrote:
> a Feed head is the same structure as an Entry. Or if you go the Fielding 
> way with the recursive pace,

I'm ambivalent w.r.t. tagline vs subtitle; but changing the name to 
summary to impose a structure that isn't there doesn't feel right to me.

"It's just data" is a tagline.  It could conceivably be a subtitle.  But 
it is a summary of what exactly?

- Sam Ruby

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From: Henry Story <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:32:01 +0100

On 2 Feb 2005, at 18:09, Antone Roundy wrote:
> the same thing as an Entry.

You mean you don't see it that way yet ;-)

>  It would be conceivable, though perhaps not advisable (I'd have to 
> think about it), to add a subtitle element to entry, but I can't 
> really see adding a summary element to feed.

On 2 Feb 2005, at 18:09, Sam Ruby wrote:
> "It's just data" is a tagline.  It could conceivably be a subtitle.  
> But it is a summary of what exactly?

Ok. I can agree that a tagline is not a summary.

Adding a summary element to a feed does not seem wrong. Consider James 
Gosling's blog:
<http://today.java.net/jag/>

The following does not seem out of place as a summary of the feed:

""I've been inescapably tagged as "the Java guy". These days I'm the 
CTO of Sun's Developer Products group. This now includes the J2SE 
engineering organization, so I've managed to cycle back. With luck I'll 
update this blog often enough for it to be interesting.""

And if you think that an Entry can be the object of a lot of 
discussion, and so have responses attached
to it, then you can come to see that it would not be so silly to have 
an Entry have a tagline...

Henry Story

>>>> Any chance of renaming atom:tagline to atom:subtitle? The two 
>>>> sample feeds posted today have the taglines "ongoing fragmented 
>>>> essay by Tim Bray" and "WebDAV related news". Aren't taglines meant 
>>>> to be funny or catchy or clever?

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From: Danny Ayers <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:59:11 +0100

+1.

"Subtitle" is less obscure, and as Graham suggests could reasonably
encompass "tagline". Summary isn't far away, but subtitle and tagline
are both more suggestive of the kind of half-a-sentence people use in
this position, rather than a paragraph+.

-- 

http://dannyayers.com

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From: Walter Underwood <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 10:55:06 -0800

Or "description" instead of "tagline". "subtitle" sounds like a
formatting directive to me, "print this smaller and below the title."

This is one case where "description" and "summary" are not really
the same thing. But it might be confusing, because HTML uses a
description meta tag for the summary. Ick.

How about "blurb"? American Heritage dictionary has: "A brief publicity
notice, as on a book jacket."

wunder

--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect
Verity Ultraseek

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From: "Jeremy Gray" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:56:05 -0800

> encompass "tagline". Summary isn't far away, but subtitle and
> tagline are both more suggestive of the kind of half-a-sentence
> people use in this position, rather than a paragraph+.

Relatively minor part of the spec, but I might as well toss out a few +/- 1s
as I have time while the spec draws to a close. :)

+1 for "subtitle" over "tagline", and to using that to increase any possible
consistency between feed and entry.

-1 for "summary" being merged with / replaced by either.

Jeremy Gray

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From: Lance Lavandowska <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 14:10:07 -0600

> formatting directive to me, "print this smaller and below the title."

"description" feels too vague.
 
> description meta tag for the summary. Ick.

The difference between "summary" and "description/subtitle" is that
the former is a shorter version of something else, whereas the latter
is an expanded version.
 
> notice, as on a book jacket."

I would prefer "blurb" over "description".  I like "subtitle" better
than either.

Lance

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From: Martin Duerst <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 17:30:50 +0900

>this position, rather than a paragraph+.

+1 from me, too. I think subtitle is also easier to get for
non-English speakers than 'tagline'.

Regards,    Martin.

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From: Norman Walsh <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 16:08:00 -0500

/ Graham <[email-masked]> was heard to say:
| Any chance of renaming atom:tagline to atom:subtitle? The two sample
| feeds posted today have the taglines "ongoing fragmented essay by Tim
| Bray" and "WebDAV related news". Aren't taglines meant to be funny or
| catchy or clever?

+1

                                        Be seeing you,
                                          norm

-- 
Norman Walsh <[email-masked]> | Old age is the most unexpected of all
http://nwalsh.com/            | the things that happen to a man.--
                              | Trotsky

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From: Graham <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 00:53:45 +0000

Did this need a Pace? It seems to have got fairly unanimous support.

Graham

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From: Paul Hoffman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:57:07 -0800

>Did this need a Pace? It seems to have got fairly unanimous support.

No pace needed for editorial changes such as renaming elements or 
attributes if there is good agreement. The editors know full well if 
they make a change that angers the WG, the pitchforks will be drawn.

--Paul Hoffman, Director
--Internet Mail Consortium