Subject: Re: [certid] [TLS] [secdir] secdir review of draft-saintandre-tls-server-id-check-09

From: "Jeffrey A. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 14:43:05 -0500 (GMT-05:00)

Marsh and all,

  Thanks for confirming what I have seen far to often in respect to gmail.com.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Marsh Ray <[email-masked]>
>Sent: Sep 22, 2010 2:37 PM
>To: ArkanoiD <[email-masked]>
>Cc: IETF discussion list <[email-masked]>, [email-masked], Barry Leiba <[email-masked]>, IETF cert-based identity <[email-masked]>, [email-masked], Jeffrey Hutzelman <[email-masked]>
>Subject: Re: [TLS] [certid] [secdir] secdir	review	of	draft-saintandre-tls-server-id-check-09
>
>On 09/22/2010 01:31 PM, ArkanoiD wrote:
>> BTW, slightly offtopic here: whenever i connect to gmail.com, i get certificate
>> for mail.google.com. But i've yet to see any web browser to complain! Where is the magic?
>
>Seems totally relevant to me.
>
>Going to https://gmail.com/ I get some kind of redirection to 
>https://www.google.com/accounts/ServiceLogin...
>
>I can confirm the silent redirect behavior on FF, an associate reports 
>it on IE9. I tried IE8 but get the expected "cert was issued for a 
>different website's address" error.
>
>Hopefully I'm overlooking something simple, but at first glance it would 
>seem like either of these two conditions are true:
>
>1. Multiple vendors are putting some kind of override table in their 
>browsers with an entry for gmail.com.
>
>2. Browsers are running script from badly authenticated sources.
>
>So what does gmail.com have in this situation that an attacker couldn't 
>obtain for phonygmail.com?
>
>- Marsh
>
>
>marsh@lamb:/tmp$ dig -t any gmail.com
>
>; <<>> DiG 9.7.0-P1 <<>> -t any gmail.com
>;; global options: +cmd
>;; Got answer:
>;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 44091
>;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 11, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 2
>
>;; QUESTION SECTION:
>;gmail.com.			IN	ANY
>
>;; ANSWER SECTION:
>gmail.com.		300	IN	A	74.125.227.22
>gmail.com.		300	IN	A	74.125.227.21
>gmail.com.		300	IN	A	74.125.227.24
>gmail.com.		300	IN	A	74.125.227.23
>gmail.com.		86400	IN	NS	ns4.google.com.
>gmail.com.		86400	IN	NS	ns1.google.com.
>gmail.com.		86400	IN	SOA	ns1.google.com. dns-admin.google.com. 1427981 
>21600 3600 1209600 300
>gmail.com.		3600	IN	MX	40 alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com.
>gmail.com.		3600	IN	MX	5 gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com.
>gmail.com.		3600	IN	MX	20 alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com.
>gmail.com.		300	IN	TXT	"v=spf1 redirect=_spf.google.com"
>
>;; ADDITIONAL SECTION:
>ns4.google.com.		85092	IN	A	216.239.38.10
>ns1.google.com.		85092	IN	A	216.239.32.10
>
>;; Query time: 54 msec
>;; SERVER: 192.168.1.3#53(192.168.1.3)
>;; WHEN: Wed Sep 22 14:26:29 2010
>;; MSG SIZE  rcvd: 330
>
>
>
>marsh@lamb:/tmp$ openssl s_client -connect gmail.com:443
>...
>subject=/C=US/ST=California/L=Mountain View/O=Google Inc/CN=mail.google.com
>issuer=/C=ZA/O=Thawte Consulting (Pty) Ltd./CN=Thawte SGC CA
>...
>---
>GET / HTTP/1.0
>
>HTTP/1.0 200 OK
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 19:31:43 GMT
>Expires: -1
>Cache-Control: private, max-age=0
>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>Set-Cookie: 
>PREF=ID=8614650b9dda6802:TM=1285183903:LM=1285183903:S=B88jR4IHVEMJ7oJ7; 
>expires=Fri, 21-Sep-2012 19:31:43 GMT; path=/; domain=.google.com
>Set-Cookie: 
>NID=39=nR1SfxSCd9I9frwdHUXGHtOKWCI2yKMLaVWVnRZk50jDJv4InnuJPuhruGHy2j8hWeKdBfO18SCZzEm6N0qMW_flPF6tF6i-CvhRU1DrDDYvExygPnpew69GRLaWZeI0; 
>expires=Thu, 24-Mar-2011 19:31:43 GMT; path=/; domain=.google.com; HttpOnly
>Server: gws
>X-XSS-Protection: 1; mode=block
>
><!doctype html><html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" 
>content="text/html; 
>charset=ISO-8859-1"><title>Google</title><script>window.google={kEI:"n1maTNKCA5O8zAXDpJFW",kEXPI:"24956,26758",kCSI:{e:"24956,26758",ei:"n1maTNKCA5O8zAXDpJFW",expi:"24956,26758"},ml:function(){},kHL:"en",time:function(){return(new 
>Date).getTime()},log:function(b,d,c){var a=new 
>Image,e=google,g=e.lc,f=e.li;a.onerror=(a.onload=(a.onabort=function(){delete 
>g[f]}));g[f]=a;c=c||"/gen_204?atyp=i&ct="+b+"&cad="+d+"&zx="+google.time();a.src=c;e.li=f+1},lc:[],li:0,Toolbelt:{}};
>window.google.sn="webhp";window.google.timers={load:{t:{start:(new 
>Date).getTime()}}};try{}catch(u){}window.google.jsrt_kill=1;
>var _gjwl=location;function _gjuc(){var 
>e=_gjwl.href.indexOf("#");if(e>=0){var 
>a=_gjwl.href.substring(e);if(a.indexOf("&q=")>0||a.indexOf("#q=")>=0){a=a.substring(1);if(a.indexOf("#")==-1){for(var 
>c=0;c<a.length;){var d=c;if(a.charAt(d)=="&")++d;var 
>b=a.indexOf("&",d);if(b==-1)b=a.length;var 
>f=a.substring(d,b);if(f.indexOf("fp=")==0){a=a.substring(0,c)+a.substring(b,a.length);b=c}else 
>if(f=="cad=h")return 0;c=b}_gjwl.href="/search?"+a+"&cad=h";return 
>1}}}return 0}function _gjp(){!(window._gjwl.hash&&
>window._gjuc())&&setTimeout(_gjp,500)};
>window._gjp && _gjp()</script><style 
>id=gstyle>body{margin:0}#gog{padding:3px 8px 
>0}td{line-height:.8em}.gac_m 
>td{line-height:17px}form{margin-bottom:20px}body,td,a,p,.h{font-family:arial,sans-serif}.h{color:#36c;font-size:20px}.q{color:#00c}.ts 
>td{padding:0}.ts{border-collapse:collapse}em{font-weight:bold;font-style:normal}.lst{width:496px}.tiah{width:458px}input{font-family:inherit}a.gb1,a.gb2,a.gb3,a.gb4{color:#11c 
>!important}#gog{background:#fff}#gbar,#guser{font-size:13px;padding-top:1px 
>!important}#gbar{float:left;height:22px}#guser{padding-bottom:7px 
>!important;text-align:right}.gbh,.gbd{border-top:1px solid 
>#c9d7f1;font-size:1px}.gbh{height:0;position:absolute;top:24px;width:100%}#gbs,.gbm{background:#fff;left:0;position:absolute;text-align:left;visibility:hidden;z-index:1000}.gbm{border:1px 
>solid;border-color:#c9d7f1 #36c #36c 
>#a2bae7;z-index:1001}.gb1{margin-right:.5em}.gb1,.gb3{zoom:1}.gb2{display:block;padding:.2em 
>.5em}.gb2,.gb3{text-decoration:none;border-bottom:none}a.gb1,a.gb2,a.gb3,a.gb4{color:#00c 
>!important}a.gb2:hover{background:#36c;color:#fff 
>!important}#gbar{display: none}#gbe{display: 
>none}body{background:#fff;color:black}input{-moz-box-sizing:content-box}a{color:#11c;text-decoration:none}a:hover,a:active{text-decoration:underline}.fl 
>a{color:#4272db}a:visited{color:#551a8b}a.gb1,a.gb4{text-decoration:underline}a.gb3:hover{text-decoration:none}#ghead 
>a.gb2:hover{color:#fff!important}.ds{display:-moz-inline-box}.ds{border-bottom:solid 
>1px #e7e7e7;border-right:solid 1px 
>#e7e7e7;display:inline-block;margin:3px 0 
>4px;margin-left:4px}.sblc{padding-top:5px}.sblc 
>a{display:block;margin:2px 
>0;margin-left:13px;font-size:11px;}.lsbb{background:#eee;border:solid 
>1px;border-color:#ccc #999 #999 
>#ccc;height:30px;display:block}.lsb{background:url(/images/srpr/nav_logo14.png) 
>bottom;font:15px 
>arial,sans-serif;border:none;color:#000;cursor:pointer;height:30px;margin:0;outline:0;vertical-align:top}.lsb:active{background:#ccc}.lst:focus{outline:none}.ftl,#fll 
>a{margin:0 12px}#addlang a{padding:0 3px}.gac_v div{display:none}.gac_v 
>.gac_v2,.gac_bt{display:block!important}</style><script>google.y={};google.x=function(e,g){google.y[e.id]=[e,g];return 
>false};window.gbar={qs:function(){},tg:function(e){var 
>o={id:'gbar'};for(i in 
>e)o[i]=e[i];google.x(o,function(){gbar.tg(o)})}};</script></head><body 
>bgcolor=#ffffff text=#000000 link=#0000cc vlink=#551a8b alink=#ff0000 
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>style=display:none></textarea><iframe name=wgjf 
>style=display:none></iframe><div id=ghead><div id=gog><div id=guser 
>width=100%><nobr><span id=gbn class=gbi></span><span id=gbf 
>class=gbf></span><span id=gbe><a 
>href="/url?sa=p&pref=ig&pval=3&q=http://www.google.com/ig%3Fhl%3Den%26source%3Diglk&usg=AFQjCNFA18XPfgb7dKnXfKz7x7g1GDH1tg" 
>class=gb4>iGoogle</a> | </span><a href="/preferences?hl=en" 
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>height=110 border=0><br></div><font size=-1>Go to <a 
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Regards,
Jeffrey A. Williams
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 300k members/stakeholders and growing, strong!)
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===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
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---

From: =JeffH <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:39:55 -0700

On 09/24/2010 01:29 PM, Martin Rex wrote:
 > Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
 >
 >> For context, the "quoted advice" is mostly a description of current
 >> usage in some existing user agents. Incorporating Barry's suggestions,
 >> that text currently reads as follows in our working copy:
 >>
 >>       Security Note: Some existing interactive user agents give advanced
 >>       users the option of proceeding despite an identity mismatch.
 >>       Although this behavior can be appropriate in certain specialized
 >>       circumstances, in general it ought to be exposed only to advanced
 >>       users and even then needs to be handled with extreme caution, for
 >>       example by first encouraging even an advanced user to terminate
 >>       the connection and, if the advanced user chooses to proceed
 >>       ....
 >
 > This whole paragraph is evil and completely wrong.

PeterSA and I disagree, and echo rrelyea's sentiments.

For some background context, see..

ForceHTTPS: Protecting High-Security Web Sites from Network Attacks
Collin Jackson and Adam Barth
In Proceedings of the 17th International World Wide Web Conference (WWW2008)
https://crypto.stanford.edu/forcehttps/forcehttps.pdf

See also..

HTTP Strict Transport Security (HSTS)
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hodges-strict-transport-sec

Firefox 4.0 beta 5
<http://blog.mozilla.com/blog/2010/09/07/firefox-4-beta-with-faster-graphics-and-new-audio-capabilities-for-the-web/>

"HTTP Strict Transport Security (HSTS) is a new security protocol in Firefox 4 
Beta..."

=JeffH