Subject: [Cfrg] LTE considering ZUC

From: Russ Housley <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:30:32 -0400

At Crypto 2010 in Santa Barbara, Helena Handschuh gave a rump session
report on the security algorithm under consideration for LTE, something
called ZUC.  I do not know much about it.  Helena used a single slide:

  http://rump2010.cr.yp.to/5c531602ec4d48f668233d21b02a7386.pdf

According to Helena's slide, the ZUC algorithm is now open for public
evaluation:

  http://zucalg.forumotion.net net/

Russ

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From: "Richard L. Barnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:33:36 -0400

Any indication of why they feel they need a new cipher?
--Richard

On Aug 19, 2010, at 2:30 PM, Russ Housley wrote:

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From: Carsten Bormann <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 21:26:41 +0200

> Any indication of why they feel they need a new cipher?

Using Russ' links, I quickly found this interesting little exchange.

http://zucalg.forumotion.net/discussion-f1/history-repeats-itself-t3.htm

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.

Gruesse, Carsten

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From: Peter Gutmann <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 00:00:50 +1200

>http://zucalg.forumotion.net/discussion-f1/history-repeats-itself-t3.htm

Particularly appropriate is the comment at the end, which was what I thought
about the whole thing as well:

  China is getting to impose its algorithm on every phone in the world. Why do
  they get this privilege? If every other country insists on a home-grown
  algorithm, will every LTE phone have to support 200 algorithms?

>Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, dar=FCber muss man schweigen.

I think a more appropriate saying here would be "Irren soll man ihren Willen
lassen".  If the Chinese refuse to allow internationally-standardised crypto
then let them run with no crypto.  Everyone else won't care if they want to
shoot themselves in the foot.

Peter.

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From: "Blumenthal, Uri - 0668 - MITLL" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 08:15:18 -0400

Observing this thin thread I want to state my opinion: no LUC. One algorithm arrived at in an international competition is plenty good enough for interoperability (and it ain't LUC : ).

China is flexing its muscles in its emerging status of a super-power. Fine, I still think LUC doesn't belong in the international standard - no matter how good or bad it is, or whether "they" can read it.
--
Regards,
Uri          [email-masked]
<Disclaimer>

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From: "Rose, Greg" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 05:19:29 -0700

You guys need to brush up on your game theory. If only one major provider of cell phone chips implements ZUC, all the others lose 20% of their market. Given that at least one such provider is chinese, this is guaranteed to happen. Conclusion: all must implement or lose.

Greg.

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From: John Wilkinson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 08:24:40 -0400

Agreed. We don't have to like it (and I don't), but we'll probably have to
accept it.

On Aug 20, 2010 8:19 AM, "Rose, Greg" <[email-masked]> wrote:

You guys need to brush up on your game theory. If only one major provider of
cell phone chips implements ZUC, all the others lose 20% of their market.
Given that at least one such provider is chinese, this is guaranteed to
happen. Conclusion: all must implement or lose.

Greg.

On 2010 Aug 20, at 22:15 , Blumenthal, Uri - 0668 - MITLL wrote:

> Observing this thin thread I wa...

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From: "Blumenthal, Uri - 0668 - MITLL" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 08:25:12 -0400

V. I. Lenin made a statement to his Party comrades: "We shall hang all the capitalists!"
- But where would we get this much rope? - asked one of the attendees.
- Don't worry - they'll sell us all the rope we want! - answered Lenin.

Doesn't it sound familiar?

P.S. How much money can you take to the grave with you? Or how much of a market share?
--
Regards,
Uri          [email-masked]

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From: Peter Gutmann <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 00:28:22 +1200

>happen. Conclusion: all must implement or lose.

I'm assuming a far more likely outcome is that they'll cave when they see
concerted opposition to their requirements, as they did for WAPI, and that
was only for China and not for the rest of the world.

Peter.

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From: Peter Gutmann <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 00:30:16 +1200

"Blumenthal, Uri - 0668 - MITLL" <[email-masked]> writes:

>Observing this thin thread I want to state my opinion: no LUC. One algorithm
>arrived at in an international competition is plenty good enough for
>interoperability (and it ain't LUC : ).

There is not LUC, there is only ZUL... err, ZUC.

Peter.

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From: "Blumenthal, Uri - 0668 - MITLL" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 08:34:52 -0400

> There is not LUC, there is only ZUL... err, ZUC.

Yeah, whatever. :)   LUC, ZUC, shmuck... :)

The answer is still no. :)