Subject: [Cfrg] CFRG Spring 2014 Interim Meeting on ECC: request for input

From: David McGrew <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 07:13:46 -0400

There is broad interest in the use of new elliptic curve cryptography 
mechanisms, and the Transport Layer Security (TLS) Working Group in 
particular has asked CFRG for input on what mechanisms are suitable for 
use in that protocol.   At the IETF89 meeting of the CFRG, it was 
decided to hold an interim meeting via teleconference, in order to allow 
more time for presentations and discussions on elliptic cryptography, 
and to also be more inclusive of CFRG members that do not typically 
attend IETF meetings. Presentations are invited on elliptic curve 
cryptography mechanisms (including both curves and algorithms), their 
security, their performance, and criteria for their selection and use in 
IETF standards.   Preference will be given to presentations that cover 
published documents, if time is limited.

If you are interested in attending, please complete the doodle poll at 
http://doodle.com/cqg7eu9m3xugwrps and vote on the time and day for the 
meeting.   We are targeting  April 28 through May 2. Duration is to be 
determined by number of presenters, but the target will be two to three 
hours.

If you are interested in presenting, respond to this email with a 
description of your presentation that includes a title, a short summary 
of the contents, and a duration.

The meeting will use Webex (http://www.webex.com/), and participants 
should verify that they can use that software as needed to view or 
present slides.

David and Kevin

---

From: David McGrew <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 11:36:02 -0400

Hi CFRG,

the interim will take place on Tuesday, April 29 at 3PM ET, and will be 
around two hours in length.  It will be teleconference hosted as a Webex 
Event.  Slides will be distributed in advance, and it will be possible 
to follow along on audio by calling a toll free number.   Discussion 
will be moderated, as is needed for any large teleconference.

Two people have asked for presentation slots:

Patrick Longa: Selecting Elliptic Curves for Cryptography.   45 minutes.
Watson Ladd: On the security of twisted Edwards Curves.  20 minutes.

Anyone else who wants to speak should let me know by the end of the day 
on Friday April 25.  If you are hoping to speak at the microphone for 
five minutes in order to make some point, you should sign up in advance 
so that I can add you as a "presenter" for the meeting.   It will make 
things go more smoothly.

For the record, I did suggest to Dan Bernstein and Tanja Lange that 
people would be interested in hearing from them in this meeting, as had 
been suggested at the CFRG meeting at IETF 89.

It would be valuable to also have a presentation that gives a summary of 
the use of ECC in current Internet protocols, and gives a statement of 
the problems that we are aiming to solve. There was a good discussion of 
the problems in the TLS and CFRG meetings at IETF 89.   Can I ask 
someone to give this overview?

There will also be time scheduled for discussion at the end of the meeting.

I propose that the meeting aim to answer these questions:

   1) What curves are safe to use on the Internet?

   2) What curves are desirable to use in Internet protocols, 
considering criteria beyond just security, such implementation costs and 
interoperability?

If you are additional questions, or refinements of these questions, 
please let me know before the end of the day on Friday.

regards,

David

On 04/10/2014 07:13 AM, David McGrew wrote:
> particular has asked CFRG for input on what mechanisms are suitable 
> for use in that protocol.   At the IETF89 meeting of the CFRG, it was 
> decided to hold an interim meeting via teleconference, in order to 
> allow more time for presentations and discussions on elliptic 
> cryptography, and to also be more inclusive of CFRG members that do 
> not typically attend IETF meetings. Presentations are invited on 
> elliptic curve cryptography mechanisms (including both curves and 
> algorithms), their security, their performance, and criteria for their 
> selection and use in IETF standards.   Preference will be given to 
> presentations that cover published documents, if time is limited.
>
> http://doodle.com/cqg7eu9m3xugwrps and vote on the time and day for 
> the meeting.   We are targeting  April 28 through May 2. Duration is 
> to be determined by number of presenters, but the target will be two 
> to three hours.
>
> description of your presentation that includes a title, a short 
> summary of the contents, and a duration.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cfrg mailing list
> [email-masked]
> http://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/cfrg
>

---

From: Dan Brown <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 16:23:23 +0000

Hi David,

I'd like to speak briefly about three small points: (1) the security benefit
of random curves (and more generally algorithm constants), (2) a method to
generate random curves (and constants), and (3) the security benefit of
resisting Cheon-type attacks.   I could probably squeeze it all into 5
minutes, if needed.  Unfortunately, I probably will not have slide materials
in time for the meeting, sorry.

Best regards,

Dan

From: Cfrg [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of David McGrew
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 11:36 AM
To: [email-masked]
Cc: Eric Rescorla; Joseph Salowey; Sean Turner; [email-masked]
Subject: [Cfrg] CFRG Spring 2014 Interim Meeting on ECC

Hi CFRG,

the interim will take place on Tuesday, April 29 at 3PM ET, and will be
around two hours in length.  It will be teleconference hosted as a Webex
Event.  Slides will be distributed in advance, and it will be possible to
follow along on audio by calling a toll free number.   Discussion will be
moderated, as is needed for any large teleconference.

Anyone else who wants to speak should let me know by the end of the day on
Friday April 25.  If you are hoping to speak at the microphone for five
minutes in order to make some point, you should sign up in advance so that I
can add you as a "presenter" for the meeting.   It will make things go more
smoothly.  

For the record, I did suggest to Dan Bernstein and Tanja Lange that people
would be interested in hearing from them in this meeting, as had been
suggested at the CFRG meeting at IETF 89. 

It would be valuable to also have a presentation that gives a summary of the
use of ECC in current Internet protocols, and gives a statement of the
problems that we are aiming to solve.   There was a good discussion of the
problems in the TLS and CFRG meetings at IETF 89.   Can I ask someone to
give this overview?

  2) What curves are desirable to use in Internet protocols, considering
criteria beyond just security, such implementation costs and
interoperability?

If you are additional questions, or refinements of these questions, please
let me know before the end of the day on Friday.

regards,

David

There is broad interest in the use of new elliptic curve cryptography
mechanisms, and the Transport Layer Security (TLS) Working Group in
particular has asked CFRG for input on what mechanisms are suitable for use
in that protocol.   At the IETF89 meeting of the CFRG, it was decided to
hold an interim meeting via teleconference, in order to allow more time for
presentations and discussions on elliptic cryptography, and to also be more
inclusive of CFRG members that do not typically attend IETF meetings.
Presentations are invited on elliptic curve cryptography mechanisms
(including both curves and algorithms), their security, their performance,
and criteria for their selection and use in IETF standards.   Preference
will be given to presentations that cover published documents, if time is
limited. 

If you are interested in presenting, respond to this email with a
description of your presentation that includes a title, a short summary of
the contents, and a duration. 

The meeting will use Webex (http://www.webex.com/), and participants should
verify that they can use that software as needed to view or present slides. 

David and Kevin

---

From: Watson Ladd <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 10:30:13 -0700

> suggested at the CFRG meeting at IETF 89.

Why listen to what you can read? DJB and Tanja Lange have published
many articles, as well as present a significant bibliography on the
subject. Of particular interest are  Bernstein, "Curve25519: New
Diffie-Hellman Speed Records" and Daniel J. Bernstein, Peter Birkner,
Marc Joye, Tanja Lange, Christiane Peters. "Twisted Edwards curves.",
Bernstein and Lange, "Security dangers of the NIST Curves".

For the security picture look at Handbook of Hyperelliptic and
Elliptic Curve Cryptography. There is an enormous literature on ECC,
and it would probably make the meeting go more smoothly if
participants were to familiarize themselves with the basics.

The paper "Elliptic Curve Cryptography: The Serpentine Course of a
Paradigm Shift" by Koblitz, Koblitz, and Menezes probably deserves a
look as well.

Sincerely,
Watson Ladd

---

From: David McGrew <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 17:19:03 -0400

On 04/24/2014 01:30 PM, Watson Ladd wrote:
> Why listen to what you can read?

I'm not sure how to take this comment.   We are convening to hopefully 
come to a decision on a topic, and it only makes sense to invite a 
respected expert in that area.  I can't imagine that you want to 
discourage people from listening to Dan or Tanja, so I will guess that 
the main goal of your post is to encourage people to read the references 
you mention.

David

> DJB and Tanja Lange have published
> .

---

From: Rene Struik <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 05:57:32 -0400

Hi David:

I could present on "Fixing the EC-DRBG" and have slides. Twenty minutes
(perhaps 15) should be sufficient.

Rene
On Apr 24, 2014 11:47 AM, "David McGrew" <[email-masked]> wrote:

> minutes in order to make some point, you should sign up in advance so that
> I can add you as a "presenter" for the meeting.   It will make things go
> more smoothly.
>
> the use of ECC in current Internet protocols, and gives a statement of the
> should verify that they can use that software as needed to view or present
> slides.
>
> David and Kevin
>

---

From: David McGrew <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 10:59:52 -0400

Hi Rene,

On 04/26/2014 05:57 AM, Rene Struik wrote:
>
> Hi David:
>
> I could present on "Fixing the EC-DRBG" and have slides. Twenty 
> minutes (perhaps 15) should be sufficient.
>

would this presentation cover the questions that this meeting is aiming 
to answer, such as the choice of curves or key establishment and 
signature techniques suitable for TLS?   Or would those be out of 
scope?    In the latter case, it seems like we should schedule this 
presentation after the scheduled discussion tomorrow, or alternatively 
at the next CFRG meeting.

David

> Rene
>
> On Apr 24, 2014 11:47 AM, "David McGrew" <[email-masked] 
> <mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:
>
>     Hi CFRG,
>
>     the interim will take place on Tuesday, April 29 at 3PM ET, and
>     will be around two hours in length.  It will be teleconference
>     hosted as a Webex Event.  Slides will be distributed in advance,
>     and it will be possible to follow along on audio by calling a toll
>     free number.   Discussion will be moderated, as is needed for any
>     large teleconference.
>
>     Anyone else who wants to speak should let me know by the end of
>     the day on Friday April 25.  If you are hoping to speak at the
>     microphone for five minutes in order to make some point, you
>     should sign up in advance so that I can add you as a "presenter"
>     for the meeting.   It will make things go more smoothly.
>
>     For the record, I did suggest to Dan Bernstein and Tanja Lange
>     that people would be interested in hearing from them in this
>     meeting, as had been suggested at the CFRG meeting at IETF 89.
>
>     It would be valuable to also have a presentation that gives a
>     summary of the use of ECC in current Internet protocols, and gives
>     a statement of the problems that we are aiming to solve.   There
>     was a good discussion of the problems in the TLS and CFRG meetings
>     at IETF 89. Can I ask someone to give this overview?
>
>     considering criteria beyond just security, such implementation
>     costs and interoperability?
>
>     If you are additional questions, or refinements of these
>     questions, please let me know before the end of the day on Friday.
>
>     regards,
>
>     David
>
>>     There is broad interest in the use of new elliptic curve
>>     cryptography mechanisms, and the Transport Layer Security (TLS)
>>     Working Group in particular has asked CFRG for input on what
>>     mechanisms are suitable for use in that protocol.   At the IETF89
>>     meeting of the CFRG, it was decided to hold an interim meeting
>>     via teleconference, in order to allow more time for presentations
>>     and discussions on elliptic cryptography, and to also be more
>>     inclusive of CFRG members that do not typically attend IETF
>>     meetings. Presentations are invited on elliptic curve
>>     cryptography mechanisms (including both curves and algorithms),
>>     their security, their performance, and criteria for their
>>     selection and use in IETF standards.   Preference will be given
>>     to presentations that cover published documents, if time is limited.
>>
>>     If you are interested in attending, please complete the doodle
>>     poll at http://doodle.com/cqg7eu9m3xugwrps and vote on the time
>>     and day for the meeting.   We are targeting  April 28 through May
>>     2. Duration is to be determined by number of presenters, but the
>>     target will be two to three hours.
>>
>>     The meeting will use Webex (http://www.webex.com/), and
>>     participants should verify that they can use that software as
>>     needed to view or present slides.
>>
>>     David and Kevin
>>
>>     [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>
>     [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>

---

From: Rene Struik <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 11:52:58 -0400

Hi David:

 From the earlier email on the objectives of the CFRG interim, it seemed 
the objective was to investigate criteria for selection of ECC-based 
constructs by IETF and not just TLS.

The two presentations in your earlier email as of Thu April 24, 2014, 
10:59am EDT), witness their titles, are on curve picks only and do not 
cover cryptographic constructs that depend on these.

If the objective is to discuss various curve picks, I would recommend 
giving a more complete picture and also discussing curves with 
endomorphisms, such as the following one presented at CHES 2013: Two is 
the Fastest Prime, Lambda Coordinates for Binary Curves (Thomaz 
Oliveira, Juilo Lopez, Diego Aranha, Francisco Rodriguez-Henriquez, IACR 
ePrint 2013-131).

There are currently no presentation titles on anything else. Hence, my 
suggested talk, which deals with provably secure RNGs based on the 
presumed hardness of the discrete log problem and (variants of) the 
Diffie-Hellman problem.  This would also deal with the very construct 
(EC-DRBG) that sparked lots of email list traffic, controversy, 
conspiracy theories, and mud slinging -- in a manner supported by 
technical analysis and could offer increased understanding and 
dispelling of myths here. (The RNG constructs in my presentation could 
be part of the toolbox of RNG constructs IETF could draw upon, without 
having to implement, e.g., hash functions, at the expense of speed.) 
Originally, I was scheduled to present this at the IETF-89 meeting in 
London, but could not make this meeting. I am happy to postpone this 
further, if this helps reaching the meeting's objectives.

There are many signature schemes, key agreement schemes, and potential 
curve constructions out there, beyond the most widely used and 
standardized ones. It is, however, unclear to me what the criteria are 
for picking other mechanisms and constructs (except that we all know of 
vocal proponents for particular non-short Weierstrass curves).

Personally, I would be happy if the interim meeting woud shed light on 
whether there is any *technical* need to justify new standardization 
beyond the curves and mechanisms, such as ECDH and ECDSA, that we 
currently already have, from a system and security perspective.

Rene

==
Presentations are invited on elliptic curve cryptography mechanisms 
(including both curves and algorithms), their security, their 
performance, and criteria for their selection and use in IETF 
standards.   Preference will be given to presentations that cover 
published documents, if time is limited.

On 4/28/2014 10:59 AM, David McGrew wrote:
> would this presentation cover the questions that this meeting is 
> aiming to answer, such as the choice of curves or key establishment 
> and signature techniques suitable for TLS?   Or would those be out of 
>>     and it will be possible to follow along on audio by calling a
>>     toll free number. Discussion will be moderated, as is needed for
>>     any large teleconference.
>>
>>     summary of the use of ECC in current Internet protocols, and
>>     gives a statement of the problems that we are aiming to solve.  
>>     There was a good discussion of the problems in the TLS and CFRG
>>     meetings at IETF 89.   Can I ask someone to give this overview?
>>
>>>     mechanisms are suitable for use in that protocol.   At the
>>>     IETF89 meeting of the CFRG, it was decided to hold an interim
>>>     meeting via teleconference, in order to allow more time for
>>>     presentations and discussions on elliptic cryptography, and to
>>>     also be more inclusive of CFRG members that do not typically
>>>     attend IETF meetings. Presentations are invited on elliptic
>>>     curve cryptography mechanisms (including both curves and
>>>     algorithms), their security, their performance, and criteria for
>>>     their selection and use in IETF standards.   Preference will be
>>>     given to presentations that cover published documents, if time
>>>     is limited.
>>>
>>>     and day for the meeting.   We are targeting  April 28 through
>>>     May 2. Duration is to be determined by number of presenters, but
>>>     the target will be two to three hours.
>>>
>>>     If you are interested in presenting, respond to this email with
>>>     a description of your presentation that includes a title, a
>>>     short summary of the contents, and a duration.
>>>

-- 
email: [email-masked] | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363

---

From: David McGrew <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 13:06:12 -0400

Hi Rene,

On 04/28/2014 11:52 AM, Rene Struik wrote:
> Hi David:
>
> From the earlier email on the objectives of the CFRG interim, it 
> seemed the objective was to investigate criteria for selection of 
> ECC-based constructs by IETF and not just TLS.
>
> endomorphisms, such as the following one presented at CHES 2013: Two 
> is the Fastest Prime, Lambda Coordinates for Binary Curves (Thomaz 
> Oliveira, Juilo Lopez, Diego Aranha, Francisco Rodriguez-Henriquez, 
> IACR ePrint 2013-131).
>

We can fit in your presentation on fixing EC-DRBG - there is enough 
time, and you are right that this topic fits into the broader theme.  
(Though as far as I know, there are no IETF standards that reference 
EC-DRBG.)

Personally, I don't see the value in the use of number-theoretic PRNGs, 
including ECC based ones.  Too much computational cost, and too little 
security in a post-quantum scenario.    But I certainly do see value in 
"increased understanding" as you put it.

> for picking other mechanisms and constructs (except that we all know 
> of vocal proponents for particular non-short Weierstrass curves).
>

Agreed.

David

>> presentation after the scheduled discussion tomorrow, or 
>> alternatively at the next CFRG meeting.
>>
>> David
>>
>>> Rene
>>>
>>>     toll free number.   Discussion will be moderated, as is needed
>>>     for any large teleconference.
>>>
>>>>     algorithms), their security, their performance, and criteria
>>>>     for their selection and use in IETF standards.   Preference
>>>>     will be given to presentations that cover published documents,
>>>>     if time is limited.
>>>>
>>>>     May 2. Duration is to be determined by number of presenters,
>>>>     but the target will be two to three hours.
>>>>
> email:[email-masked]  | Skype: rstruik

---

From: Alyssa Rowan <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 18:47:18 +0100

On 28/04/2014 16:52, Rene Struik wrote:

> (The RNG constructs in my presentation could be part of the toolbox
>  of RNG constructs IETF could draw upon, without having to
> implement, e.g., hash functions, at the expense of speed.)

All 'backdoors' aside, I still can't see why we'd ever want a DRBG
function that's comparatively slow, harder to implement than a decent
hash, and isn't post-quantum, when we could use, say, HMAC_DRBG instead?

It seems to represent a pretty unattractive choice to me from every angle.

Of course, that has no bearing on the other, more useful, uses of ECC
in your talk.

- -- 
/akr

---

From: David McGrew <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 14:12:16 -0400

Hi CFRG,

the interim will take place on Tuesday, April 29 at 3PM ET, and will be 
around two and one-half hours in length.  It will be a purely virtual 
teleconference hosted as a Webex Meeting; there is no physical meeting 
place.  Slides will be distributed in advance, and it will be possible 
to follow along on audio by calling a toll free number.   Discussion 
will be moderated, as is needed for any large teleconference.   To 
participate, see the instructions at the end of this email.

Agenda:

3:00  David McGrew: Current ECC standards and problem statement. 15 minutes.
3:15 Rene Struik: Fixing the EC-DRBG.  20 minutes.
3:35 Dan Brown: Random curves: security benefits, generation methods, 
and Cheon attacks.  10 minutes.
3:45  Watson Ladd: On the security of twisted Edwards Curves.  20 minutes.
4:05  Patrick Longa: Selecting Elliptic Curves for Cryptography.   45 
minutes.
4:50  Discussion
   1) What curves and algorithms are safe to use on the Internet?
   2) What curves and algorithms are desirable to use in Internet 
protocols, considering criteria beyond just security, such 
implementation costs and interoperability?

Rene, Dan, Watson, and Patrick, please send out your slides to 
[email-masked] before the meeting starts.   Thank you for volunteering 
your time to prepare and present to the group.

Here are some background materials, including the minutes that led to 
the planning of this meeting, and some references suggested by participants.

CFRG materials from IETF89 - http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/cfrg.html

CFRG update to TLS WG at IETF89 - 
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-tls

"Selecting Elliptic Curves for Cryptography: An Efficiency and Security 
Analysis", http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/130. (Background material to 
Patrick Longa's presentation)

"Additional Elliptic Curves for IETF protocols" - 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ladd-safecurves-04

"SafeCurves:choosing safe curves for elliptic-curve cryptography" -  
http://safecurves.cr.yp.to

"The cr.yp.to blog 2014.03.23: How to design an elliptic-curve signature 
system" -  http://blog.cr.yp.to/20140323-ecdsa.html

"Elliptic Curve Cryptography: The Serpentine Course of a Paradigm 
Shift", especially Section 11.1, "Special or random selection of 
parameters?"  - https://eprint.iacr.org/2008/390.pdf

"Elliptic Curve Cryptography in Practice", 
http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/734.pdf

"High-speed high-security signatures", 
http://ed25519.cr.yp.to/ed25519-20110926.pdf

"Security Analysis of the Strong Diffie-Hellman Problem" - 
http://www.iacr.org/archive/eurocrypt2006/40040001/40040001.pdf

regards,

David

--------------------------------------

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From: David McGrew <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 14:47:56 -0400

Hi,

a couple of additional points:

- please join the meeting around 2:50 ET, so that we can start on time.

- as this is an IRTF meeting, the usual IRTF "note well" applies. Please 
see below.

David

------

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http://www.ietf.org/ipr/file-disclosure

See RFC 3979 (BCP 79) for definitions of “IPR” and “contribution” and 
for the detailed rules (substituting “IRTF” for “IETF”).

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From: David McGrew <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 11:25:14 -0400

Hi,

here are my slides for today's meeting.

David

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From: Stephen Farrell <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 19:58:28 +0100

Since I'm in the meeting from a phone, I've also gone into the
CFRG jabber room on the IETF site ([email-masked]). Could
be a useful backup for chat.

S.