Subject: GISB/E5 incorporation into EDIINT AS2

From: "Behr, George" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:28:01 -0500

(Apologies in advance for any intrusion into your email)

I've been following the EDIINT/CommerceNet/GISB/AS1/AS2 convergence
discussion on the IETF discussion threads.  I am very excited about the
possibility of convergence, but I still have lots of questions:
1. Should an industry trying to adopt a standard adopt the IETF EDIINT
standard because it is a broader standard, supporting both EDIINT
AS1/SMTP/CommerceNet and AS2/HTTP/GISB/E5 traffic?  What is the impact of
not choosing that standard, then moving to it at a later date?
2. If the world has standardized on EDIINT/AS1/AS2, and I've invested in
GISB, what type of upgrade should I expect to be EDIINT/AS2 compliant?  Will
I still need AS1 to talk to the rest of the world that might be doing AS1,
since AS2 is only a subset of EDIINT.
3. What is the realistic timeframe that the different AS2 HTTP
implementations (GISB/E5) will agree on a standard, or are they essentially
already there?
4. I assume that 'EDIINT Compliance' means supporting both AS1 and AS2.
5. Will existing GISB vendors become fully EDIINT compliant?  AS2? AS1?
What is a realistic timeframe for this? 
6. Will existing EDIINT AS1 vendors become fully compliant (ie support AS2)?
What is a realistic timeframe for this?

Thanks in advance..

George Behr
Technical Consultant to the Pennsylvania PUC
[email-masked]
717.805.8767

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked]
[mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 12:30 PM
To: PPUC List
Subject: GISB incorporation into CommerceNet is looking really good....

Dick, great - I'm passing this info on to all in the PA Electronic Data
Exchange Working Group.  This is an important breakthrough.

Chris
---------------------- Forwarded by Chris M Navadauskas/DLC on 03/05/99
12:32 PM ---------------------------

Dick Brooks <[email-masked]> on 03/05/99 10:48:20 AM

To:   Chris M Navadauskas/DLC, [email-masked]
cc:

Subject:  GISB incorporation into CommerceNet is looking really good....

Hi Chris, as you know I've been working with the EDIINT group to consider
incorporating GISB for backwards compatability. Finally I believe we've
turned a corner - everyone is beginning to say that GISB/EDIINT
convergance is good - even Dave Darnell, Chuck Shih and Rik Drummond.

     To: "Rik Drummond" <[email-masked]>, "Dick Brooks"
<[email-masked]>,
             <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
     From: Dave Darnell <[email-masked]>
     Subject: RE: where do we stand on the as1 -- http discussion?

     Rik,

     Great!

     If you can do this then I think the Utility industry would get behind
the
     ediint standard (IMHO)

     I think this is extremely important in this industry in order to avoid
     every state adopting a different Internet EDI method /standard for
Utility
     dereg.

     Thanks,
     Dave Darnell

     At 09:38 AM 3/5/99 -0600, Rik Drummond wrote:
     >yes, i think we adjust as2 to be the appropriate "base" for e5 an
gisb, if
     >possible.... we need to align these as much as possible to facilitate
     >worldwide EC.....
     >
     >> -----Original Message-----
     >> From: Dick Brooks [mailto:[email-masked]]
     >> Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 6:58 PM
     >> To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked];
     >> [email-masked]; [email-masked]
     >> Subject: RE: where do we stand on the as1 -- http discussion?
     >>
     >>
     >> What about making all the necessary changes to AS2, it's still in a
     >> "formative" stage.
     >>
     >> Dick
     >>

     ================
     Dave Darnell
     SysTrends, Inc. &  Arizona EC/EDI Roundtable
     Tel: 602.899.4787
      mailto://[email-masked]     http://www.systrends.com
     ===================================================

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From: Dick Brooks <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:51:09 -0600 (CST)

George, 
	see inline response

>since AS2 is only a subset of EDIINT.

It would be difficult for anyone (nevermind the world) to standardize on 
EDIINT/AS2 today given its current developmental state. I believe that
companies investing in GISB today will be EDIINT/AS2 compliant 
after the convergance of AS2 and GISB is complete. 

Will there be a specification for AS1-AS2 interoperation as part of the 
EDIINT effort?

>implementations (GISB/E5) will agree on a standard, or are they essentially

Depending on the group consensus, we may already be there. If GISB and AIAG
are incorporated by reference (the way FERC adopted GISB) as EDIINT/AS2 
profiles then our work is simplified.  If on the other hand we are attempting 
to rework AS2 to incorporate the specifications of GISB/AIAG into AS2, this 
could take some time (not a huge amount).

>4. I assume that 'EDIINT Compliance' means supporting both AS1 and AS2.

Good question - is that what it means? Who/What body certifies an 
implementation as EDIINT compliant (CommerceNet?). 

>What is a realistic timeframe for this? 

Another good question - I would assume so.

---

From: Dick Brooks <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 12:05:34 -0600 (CST)

Comments inline...

>Rik: AS1 is, will be an international standard, while gisb will be an
>industrial standard. in the gas industry gisb should work fine as the gas
>industry connects with other industries they should use the ietf standard --
>as1 -- when it becomes standard.. which should be shortly.
>

Dick: I agree with Rik that the long term strategy should be to use 
      international standards for E-commerce. But this doesn't address
      the question of what an organization should do today if they want the
      benefits of an HTTP based E-commerce solution. There are many good reasons
      why an E-mail based solution was not chosen for GISB and I 
      suspect other industries will also prefer an HTTP based solution over
      E-mail. 

      I believe it is the responsibility of this workgroup to provide an
      answer to the question  - what can an organization or industry, seeking 
      an HTTP based EDI solution, implement today that will preserve their 
      investment and guarantee interoperability with international standards
      long term?

>Rik: see above. If we can make the as2 a proper subset of the gisb and e5
>standard (our current discussion focus) then while they may be different
>non-interoperable standards -- as1, as2, gisb and e5 -- the cost to produce
>and maintain them will be greatly reduced for the software producers.  Maybe
>it is possible to have the new as2 to switch transparently to e5, gisb or
>as2 -- negotiating the session -- thus making it transparent to the user
>which it is using.
>
>
Dick: This workgroup should make every effort to accommodate existing HTTP
      EDI standards transparently. The idea of having AS2 switch transparently
      between E5/GISB/AS2 during session negotiation seems like a good 
      direction. I propose adding an agenda item to the EDIINT meeting 
      scheduled for 3/16 at 1:00 to discuss this very topic.

{snip}
>Rik: Yes. However, at this time because of the commercenet interoperability
>test, most would consider compliance, correctly or incorrectly, to be as1
>using s/mime.
>
>Rik: Don't know at this time.
>
Dick: Speaking as a GISB vendor; Group 8760 is planning to provide an AS2 
      compatible product offering.
      
>Rik: That is our hope. If as2 is done correctly those who have produced code
>for as1 should in a straightforward manner be able to implement as2. Our
>hope is that 90% of the as1 code is reusable in the as2.
>
>
>Rik: This will happen much more quickly if we can have a face to face
>meeting to hammer out the details. Does anyone wish to fund the meeting to
>make this happen?

Dick:  I propose that we meet during the IETF meeting in
       Minneapolis next week? How about Tuesday (3/16) after the EDIINT
       meeting?

Dick Brooks                            [email-masked]
Tel. 205-250-8053		       Birmingham, Alabama
Group 8760 LLC                         WWW URL:  http://www.8760.com/
SECURE ELECTRONIC COMMERCE SOLUTIONS FOR HEALTHCARE AND NATURAL GAS INDUSTRIES