Subject: [edu-team] Conference Call

From: Margaret Wasserman <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 13:52:20 -0400

Hi All,

It seems like we could benefit from a conference call to get us all  
informed and on the same page regarding the EDU Team web site and to  
catch up on other EDU Team topics.  I am on maternity leave through  
April 28th, but given the current state of our site (which seems to  
be down again), I don't think we should wait that long to meet...

We have folks from all over the world, so I don't think there is a  
time that will be good for everyone.  Please indicate your  
availability for the following times, and I will pick one that will  
get the most attendees:

Tuesday April 8th at:
	0500 in San Francisco (PT)
	0800 in Boston (ET)
	1400 in Frankfurt (CET)
         2300 in Syndney (?)

Tuesday April 8th at:
         0800 in San Francisco (PT)
	1100 in Boston (ET)
	1700 in Frankfurt (CET)
	0200 in Sydney (?) on April 9th

Tuesday April 8th at:
         1200 in San Francisco (PT)
	1500 in Boston (ET)
	2100 in Frankfurt (CET)
	0600 in Sydney (?) on April 9th

If Tuesday April 8th is bad for you, but you could make one of these  
times on another day, please let me know that, too.  Also, please let  
me know if I've done the time zone math wrong :-).

During the call, I would like to discuss the following topics:

(1) EDU Team Web Presence
	Issue:  Our current web site is unreliable and outdated
	- What can we do short term to get it operational?
	- What do we want longer term and how do we get it?

(2) Composition of the EDU Team
	Issue:  There are a large number of people on the EDU
	Team mailing list, few of whom actively participate.
	- Who is currently on the EDU Team?
	- Which of us would like to continue to participate?
	- Do we need new/additional members?

(3) Planning for Dublin
	Issue:  We need to communicate a class schedule to
	the secretariat and begin preparations.
	- Which classes will be offered on Sunday?
	- WG Chairs Training Lunch
	- Should we have an open meeting?  Present in plenary?

Give this list of topics, it is likely that this will be a 1-1/2 to 2  
hour call.  Folks who are only interested in the web site discussion  
may drop off after that topic is completed.

If you are receiving this mail, you are welcome to attend the  
conference call.  If you believe that you are receiving this mail in  
error or don't have time to participate in the EDU Team going  
forward, please let me know.  People who do not respond to this  
message and who haven't participated in any EDU activities over the  
past several months may be removed from the list.

Thanks,
Margaret

_______________________________________________
edu-team mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-team

---

From: James M Galvin <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 14:04:25 -0400

Your Sydney is late by one hour:

    2300 to 2200
    0200 to 0100
    0600 to 0500

I can make any time except that I have another meeting between your 
first and second suggested times.  It is scheduled to end when the 
second one starts.  Thus, the second time is less preferred for me 
but the worst case is that I'm 5-10 minutes late.  I can work with 
this if the second slot works better for other folks.

Jim

-- On Wednesday, April 02, 2008 1:52 PM -0400 Margaret Wasserman 
<[email-masked]> wrote regarding Conference Call --

> Hi All,
>
> It seems like we could benefit from a conference call to get us
> all informed and on the same page regarding the EDU Team web site
> and to catch up on other EDU Team topics.  I am on maternity
> leave through April 28th, but given the current state of our site
> (which seems to be down again), I don't think we should wait that
> long to meet...
>
> We have folks from all over the world, so I don't think there is
> a time that will be good for everyone.  Please indicate your
> availability for the following times, and I will pick one that
> will get the most attendees:
>
> Tuesday April 8th at:
> If Tuesday April 8th is bad for you, but you could make one of
> these times on another day, please let me know that, too.  Also,
> please let me know if I've done the time zone math wrong :-).
>
> Give this list of topics, it is likely that this will be a 1-1/2
> to 2 hour call.  Folks who are only interested in the web site
> discussion may drop off after that topic is completed.
>
> conference call.  If you believe that you are receiving this mail
> in error or don't have time to participate in the EDU Team going
> message and who haven't participated in any EDU activities over
> the past several months may be removed from the list.
>
> Thanks,
> Margaret
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

---

From: Avri Doria <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 20:23:27 +0200

hi,

to make things easier, i have set up a doodle for this meeting.

check it out and mark the times that are good for you.

http://www.doodle.ch/mdkxyt75trbix9y8

you can also use the comments field

if anyone has other times they want added to the doodle, let me know.

a.

---

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 09:46:07 +1300

Who cares about Sydney, since I'm in Auckland,
which will be at UTC+12 next week. At a stretch
I could make the third slot (1500 ET) but I'd rather
you pick the time regardless of me, and then see if
I can make it.

Regards
   Brian Carpenter
   University of Auckland

---

From: Margaret Wasserman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 10:48:43 -0400

It looks like everyone that wrote back can make the following time:

Tuesday April 8th at:
         1200 in San Francisco (PT)
         1500 in Boston (ET)
         2100 in Frankfurt (CET)
         0500 in Sydney (?) on April 9th

So, let's meet at that time later today.

Does anyone have a conference bridge that we can use for this call?

Thanks,
Margaret

---

From: Thomas Narten <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 12:53:30 -0400

> Does anyone have a conference bridge that we can use for this call?

I have a bridge:

  USA Toll Free: 877-421-0038
  USA Toll: 770-615-1254
  Participant Passcode:  573067

Thomas

---

From: Mirjam Kuehne <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 19:01:07 +0200

Thanks, Thomas. Are there international local numbers?

Mirjam

---

From: Margaret Wasserman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 13:03:51 -0400

Thanks, Thomas!

Everyone, we will use Thomas' bridge at the agreed time.

Margaret

---

From: Thomas Narten <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 13:17:41 -0400

> Thanks, Thomas. Are there international local numbers?

Oops, appartently I do. Hope this covers where you are!

Country	Toll-free (IBM Pays)	Toll (Caller Pays)
  Austria	 +43 179576264
  Belgium	 0800-7-3026	+32 22006114
  Denmark	 80-888377	+45 38323070
  Finland	 0800-914-630	+358 972519061
  France	 0800-902366	+33 157323040 or
		 +33 157323041
  Germany	 0800-181-6323	+49 6951709081
  Ireland	 1800-558728	+353 16569209
  Italy		 800-788634	+39 0269430413
  Netherlands	 0800-022-8558	+31 202008077
  Norway	 800-18373	+47 24159528
  Spain		 900-95-1089	+34 912754171
  Sweden	 020-799414	+46 850163259
  Switzerland	 0800-564-331	+41 446545620
  United Kingdom 0808-234-1969	+44 2070260533
  USA		 877-421-0038	770-615-1254

Thomas

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 21:39:03 +0200

The URL for the Edu Team Wiki on tools.ietf.org is:

  http://tools.ietf.org/group/edu

Best,

	Henrik

---

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 10:10:55 +1200

> It looks like everyone that wrote back can make the following time:

However, your message was sent at 02:48 a.m. Auckland time, so
I didn't see it until too late...

   Brian

---

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 10:12:43 +1200

>   http://tools.ietf.org/group/edu

Who has edit access?

    Brian

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 00:18:52 +0200

>>   http://tools.ietf.org/group/edu

Currently [email-masked] and [email-masked].  They can add new people
using the admin controls of the wiki, as can I if anybody tells me who
I should add :-)

	Henrik

---

From: Mirjam Kuehne <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 11:08:18 +0200

Hi All,

Please find below the notes of yesterday's call. They are pretty long,
but I thought it might be useful to keep most of the discussions for
those who could not be on the call. I did try to mark DECISIONS and
ACTIONS clearly though. Let me know if I got anything wrong or if you
have any questions.

Please note under agenda point (3): While we decided that 4 tutorials 
are enough, it turns out that 3 are on the first slot and 1 on the 
second. That is a bit unfortunate. But I am afraid, there is nothing
we can do about that? Any suggestions?

Best Regards,
Mirjam
------

8 March 2008

Thomas, Avri, Radia, Alice, Mirjam 
Henrik, Jim (for the first agenda point)

Jim: status of migrating to secretariat's site: James Seng provided tar
ball. Is using a certain content management system (drupal).
The secretariat would have to install drupal in order to migrate the pages
which turned out to be difficult.  Alternatively James
could send static pages. He said he would, but did not say when.

If the pages are migrated, it is not so difficult to updates the site
independent of the secretariat. We would get an ftp account and then
updload html pages directly. We would be given a directory and we
maintain the files on that directory.

We could also use any tool we want and then just mirror the directory
structure over.

A wiki on Henrik's site could be an interim solution. It is already
there: http://tools.ietf.org/group/edu

(Glen (AMS) has no wiki set up yet at the moment that edu could use.)

Thomas: uncomfortable that the sec. is spending resources on something
that we don't know this is the way we want to go (get drupal going). 

And drupal won't not be available to us once the pages are up and
running.  There will only be ftp. Avri knows her way around drupal,
but has no need to continue it.  Nobody else has ever used it.

Drupal has a DB on its back end, it is not a very straight forward
system. Drupal does not seem to be the way forward.

DECISION: Get the static pages out of current server and use a wiki 

Avri: would take a little searching to find and collect all the data
but she would be happy to do it.

Avri: especially since the IETF seems to go towards wiki to distribute
content. She has most of the recent presentations on her machine or in
proceedings and will bug James.

Top priority: to get the most recent data up (charter, mailing
list, recent presentations)

ACTION Avri: build a simple structure on the tools wiki;
we can still do a more sophisticated structure later if necessary

ACTION Henrik: to figure out how he wants to set things up and inform
Jim what the CNAME should point to.

Thomas and Avri have access to the tools wiki right now. They can 
add people if needed

ACTION Jim: to inform the secretariat there is no need to continue
work for Edu team and to thank them for their effort!!

Other topic: 

One thing Jim learned during the transition was the need for
standardising mailing lists. He has produced a template and some
guidelines for the secretariat staff.

ACTION Jim: to make mailing list guidelines and template on mailing
list configuration and management more general and make it available
to the edu team to pass it on to WG chairs.

Thomas: question on spam control and moderation guidelines on ietf
mailing lists

Jim: believes that there is effective spam filtering now. For now,
spam should be pretty much under control and mailing list moderation
should be done pretty real-time.  That can also be the message to the
WG chairs.

Avri: we have the open edu-discuss list. If that is now pretty much
spam free, we could start using again.

Jim: edu-team and edu-discuss are already included in the spam
filtering methods, so yes, that should be pretty spam-free

Radia: What are the costs of having silent people on the team?

Thomas: (1) it makes the team look bigger than it is, that might make
it difficult to recruit new people, (2) it might allow people to claim
they do something for the IETF?, (3) it makes it difficult to make 
decisions, because you never know how long you should wait and if 
people will still respond or not.

ACTION Margaret and Mirjam: to go out to every edu team member
individually and ask if they still want to be on the team 
and what particular activity they are interested in.

Checked subscription of both lists:

edu-team list members: avri, brian, alice, harald, housley,
james, jordi, margaret, mirjam, thomas, paul hoffman, radia, ray, 
scott bradner, spencer. 

edu-discussion list members: 106 members in total. Quite a well
populated with well known names. That means we actually have a good
list to get feedback on topics.  Let's keep it!

Avri is happy to continue list management

(3) Planning for Dublin

- first time slot (13:00 - 14:45)
Newcomers Tutorial (Scott Bradner)
xml2rfc (Alice Hagens, Bill Fenner)
Routing (Dave Ward)

- second time slot (15:00 - 16:45)
Document Lifecycle (Alice Hagens, Margaret Wasserman)

DECISION: Everyone happy with this schedule, not more needed even
though it is a shame that we have three in the first time slot and
only one in the second.

Thomas: let's reserve a room and come up with a topic later. It was
suggested to go through the list of earlier WG chair topics and start
repeating them, because we got new WG chairs in the meantime.

ACTION Mirjam: to reserve a room and time slot with Marcia

ACTION Avri: to find old WG chair topics in her mailing list archives

Thomas: likes the idea of 5 minutes plenary time to make people aware
of the edu team and to ask them to give us input.  Maybe we can then
also revitalise the edu-disuss mailing list and move most of the
topical discussions to the open list and away from the internal list

ACTION Mirjam: ask Russ for a short time slot during Wed. Plenary
session.

Maybe we can then still have an open edu meeting at a later IETF
and possibly outside the regular WG meeting schedule.

---

From: Margaret Wasserman <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 05:42:26 -0400

Great notes, Mirjam.  Thanks!

> though it is a shame that we have three in the first time slot and

Based on our discussion in Philadelphia, I also approached Lada  
Lhotka about doing an XML Modeling tutorial focused on RelaxNG (the  
last one focused on XSD).  Lada is going to be in Dublin and is happy  
to do this.  It would be titled "XML Modeling with RelaxNG".  Do we  
still want this tutorial?  If so, it can go in the second slot and  
I'll start a discussion with Lada cc:ing the rest of you.  If not, I  
will tell him that we don't need it this time.  Thoughts?

> ACTION Mirjam: to reserve a room and time slot with Marcia

I've seen two good subjects discussed:

- Russ' suggestion on how to handle IETF Last Call reviews.
- Jim's suggestion on mailing list guidelines, maintenance, etc.

They could possibly be combined into a single session, depending on  
how in-depth we want to be.

I think we could probably expand on Russ' idea and include a review  
of all of the later document stages and what the shepherd is expected  
to do, but that would probably take the whole slot.

Thoughts?

> and possibly outside the regular WG meeting schedule.

Sounds good.  I really like the suggestion of moving discussions to  
edu-discuss, as well.  If folks think it is a good idea, I could  
start a discussion there on what to cover for the WG chairs lunch.

Margaret

---

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 10:36:42 +1200

> Great notes, Mirjam.  Thanks!

+1. Exactly the right level of detail.

> will tell him that we don't need it this time.  Thoughts?

Do we know roughly how many WGs are expecting to use this type of
model? And do we know how many people attended the XSD tutorial?
Assuming the answers to both are not "very few", I think it's a
good idea.

> - Russ' suggestion on how to handle IETF Last Call reviews.

I'd add some discussion of how to respond to Gen-ART reviews too.
As a Gen-ART reviewer, I see quite a range of responses, all
the way from complete silence through "thankyou, thankyou"
up to complete annoyance...

> to do, but that would probably take the whole slot.

Well, it may be time for a review of the whole PROTO process, but that
would indeed need a complete lunch.

> start a discussion there on what to cover for the WG chairs lunch.

Perhaps for the lunch after Dublin?

    Brian

---

From: Margaret Wasserman <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 19:02:53 -0400

Hi Brian,

> Assuming the answers to both are not "very few", I think it's a

The first XML modeling tutorial was very well attended.  There are  
several current WGs that are working on XML models and there are  
likely to be more in the future.  Both the OPS and APPS ADs have  
indicated an interest in having further tutorials on this subject,  
and several people suggested that it would be good to have some  
coverage of RelaxNG, in particular.
> would indeed need a complete lunch.

That's what I was thinking when Russ made his suggestion.  Despite  
earlier coverage of this topic, WG chairs still seem to have some  
gaps when it comes to understanding the later parts of the process  
after a document is submitted to the IESG.  There also doesn't seem  
to be a good grasp of the purpose of the later steps and/or how to  
tell when that purpose has (or hasn't) been met.  I'd be willing to  
work on a presentation for this topic, myself, but I don't think it  
could fit together with the mailing list topic...

So, what do you (and others) think the priorities should be?

Margaret