Subject: grow: GROW minutes from IETF65

From: Geoff Huston <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 15:08:57 +1100

Hi,

Here's the minutes of the GROW meeting from this week's IETF

Geoff

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Global Routing Operations (grow) Working Group

MONDAY, March 20, 2006 1300-1500 (Afternoon Session I)
======================================================

CHAIR: Geoff Huston <[email-masked]>

AGENDA

 o Administriva                                           5 minutes

   - Mailing list: [email-masked]
     subscribe grow

   - Scribe (text and jabber)?
   
   - Blue Sheets

 o Agenda Bashing                                         5 minutes
   Huston                                           

 o Review and status of work items                      

   Active Drafts
   -------------
    draft-ietf-grow-rfc1519bis-04.txt                     5 minutes
      Fuller/all
    draft-ietf-grow-anycast-03.txt                        5 minutes
     Abley/Lindqvist                                    
    draft-ietf-grow-mrt-01.txt                            5 minutes
     Blunk

 o WG Adoption of draft-scudder-bmp-00.txt               10 minutes
     Dave Ward (for John Scudder)

 o Routing Scaling Scenarios - some open questions
     Vince Fuller                                        20 minutes
     
 o IPv6 Potential Routing Table Size
     Jason Schiller                                      20 minutes
     
 o A look at BGP across 2005
     Geoff Huston                                        20 minutes

 =====================
 
NOTES

  o WG Update
   
    Dave Meyer has resigned as GROW WG co-chair. The WG expressed its
    appreciation to Dave for his support of GROW since its chartering.

 o Review and status of work items

   draft-ietf-grow-rfc1519bis-02.txt
        BCP. In IESG evaluation, and outstanding DISCUSS tokens being
        considered.
        
   draft-ietf-grow-anycast-03.txt
        WGLC completed 22/11
        Further revision made as a followup to AD comments.
        The WG was asked whether there was interest in performing a second
        WG Last Call for the document. No interest was expressed in
        performing a second WG review and the chair will pass the revised
        document to the AD with a publication request.
        
   draft-ietf-grow-mrt-01.txt 
        Ready for a WG Last Call? The WG was ready for this document to be
        WG last called. The document editor will be consulted on this.

 o WG Adoption of draft-scudder-bmp-00.txt
 
   Following from consideration of this document at IETF 65, the WG was
   asked whether they wished to adopt this draft as a  WG draft. A question
   was asked relating to the use of MRT in BMP, and it was accepted as a
   reasonable revision to the draft to accept MRT, as the differences are
   small enough to use MRT.
   
   The draft will be revised to include MRT and resubmitted as a WG draft.

 o Routing Scaling Scenarios - some open questions     
 o IPv6 Potential Routing Table Size
 o A look at BGP across 2005
     
   Dave Meyer reported to the WG that the IAB is to form a design team to
   take a look at routing and address scaling. The WG was asked to email
   [email-masked] with ideas.

   Vince Fuller: presentation on open issues with ipv6 routing/multihoming.

   Questions and Comments:

   o Does address and topology have to be isomorphic? Quoting Yakov
     Rekhter, "Addressing can follow topology or topology can follow
     addressing. Choose one."
   
   o When you aggregate you throw away information. When you agregate you
     get benefits. When you deagregate you expose the dynamic nature if the
     system.

   o Moore's Law is an observation. Not a rule.

   o 8+8 and GSE were apparently not further progressed for political
     reason.. can anyone elaborate?

   o There were perceived security issues, surrounding the perception that
      ignoring the upper 8 bytes of address opens up some possible attack
      vectors.

   o Read the ESD analysis - recommended reading.
   
   o Comment that 8+8 was an innovative approach, but there evidently are
     problems with 8+8 that could not be solved.  The result was from
     direct input.

   o Comment that 8+8 was the sole topic for ipng meeting, number of open
     issues. ESD was technical analysis, share common concern to routing
     stability. It changes dependencies. ie DNS circular security is an
     major issue.

   o IPSEC installed on all hosts would mitigate security issues.

  Jason Schiller: presentation on potential routing table size

   Questions and Comments:
  
   o If you assume widespread adoption, do you fix the igp before the egp?

   o No, this presentation is not looking at the igp, the igp issue could
     be an order of magnatude larger.

   o Why didn't you bring in vpn routes?

   o This exercise was just looking at internet routes. No clear good data
     to investigate, again issue could be much larger with the vpn routes
     included but data is variable and difficult to project.

   o What about the tax on control plane? and number of paths to
     investigate?

   o Can consider that as well as spf and fib/rib relationship. Not always
     directed at the amount of ram but the cpu has impact.

  Geoff Huston: presentation on potential routing table size

   o it was noted that this was an eBGP view
   
   o There was discussion of whether the MTU was relevant in prefixes per
     update - some further investigation of this could be helpful
   
   o The question was asked about implicit withdraws - and it was noted
     that the load of implicit withdrawals was not included in this study.
   
   o A question was asked about flap damping and it was noted that it
     appears that many transit ISPS were not doing it, given the obvious
     flap levels of certain prefixes. It was reported that less that half
     from nanog survey said they had damping on.

_________________________________________________________________
web user interface: http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~llynch/grow.html
web archive:        http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~llynch/grow/

---

From: Vince Fuller <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 06:41:21 -0800

>    Vince Fuller: presentation on open issues with ipv6 routing/multihoming.
...
>      stability. It changes dependencies. ie DNS circular security is an

It is not clear (there is not consensus in the community) that the problems
described with 8+8/GSE cannot be resolved. It is certainly the case that
said problems won't be resolved if nobody works on them; some in the community
feel that such work would be a good idea.

These same people believe that work on a scalable Internet routing/addressing
architecture, specifically in the area of implementing a clean EID/locator
split, is badly needed; it is, perhaps, the most pressing issue facing the
long-term growth of the Internet.

The solution to the routing/addressing scaling problem may use 8+8/GSE. Or
it may be something compeltely different. But more work is badly needed in
this area.

	--Vince

---

From: "Dmitri Krioukov" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 14:29:25 -0800

during the past few years, there have been a plenty of papers at
sigcomm and elsewhere trying to address this problem from different
angles and using different sets of ideas and tools. my classic example
is name-independence in compact routing that does exactly this split
with maximum scalability (see compact routing background reading in
http://rr-fs.caida.org/ e.g.
http://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~ittaia/papers/AGMNT04.pdf or
http://www.cs.tufts.edu/~cowen/tinn-spaa.ps )
but only for static networks with global view. to make it scale in the
dynamic case is very hard if not impossible. to tell if it's indeed possible
or impossible, at least in theory, is also impossible :) because no one
yet could properly formalize the requirements.
--
dima.
http://www.caida.org/~dima/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Vince Fuller
> Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 6:41 AM
> To: Geoff Huston
> Cc: [email-masked]; David Kessens (E-mail); Dan
> Romascanu (E-mail); Wijnen, Bert (Bert); [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: grow: GROW minutes from IETF65
>
>