Subject: [Iasa20] COMMENT LLC Director Removal <<draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc7437bis-01>

From: "Pete Resnick" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 13:23:06 -0500

Seems to me that LLC director Removal by the board itself does not need 
to be mentioned in -7437bis. It is already dealt with in -struct and the 
bylaws of the LLC. This document should be about how the IETF does 
recall. I suggest the following:

- Strike 7.1 entirely

- Change 7.2:

OLD

7.2. IESG and IAB Member and IETF Trust Trustee Recall

7.2.1. Petition

At any time, at least 20 members of the IETF community, who are
qualified to be voting members of a NomCom, may request by signed
petition (email is acceptable) to the Internet Society President the
recall of any sitting IESG or IAB member, or NomCom appointed IETF
Trust trustee.

NEW

7.2. IESG and IAB Member, IETF Trust Trustee, and IETF LLC Director 
Recall

7.2.1. Petition

At any time, at least 20 members of the IETF community, who are
qualified to be voting members of a NomCom, may request by signed
petition (email is acceptable) to the Internet Society President the
recall of any sitting IESG or IAB member, NomCom appointed IETF
Trust trustee, or IETF LLC director other than the director
appointed by the Internet Society.

- Compress the section because you no longer need a separate 7.1 and 
7.2.

pr
-- 
Pete Resnick http://www.episteme.net/
All connections to the world are tenuous at best

---

From: Bob Hinden <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 12:05:16 -0700

Pete,

That seems like a reasonable change to me.

Unless there are objection I will consolidate the text.

Bob

> On Oct 19, 2018, at 11:23 AM, Pete Resnick <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> Seems to me that LLC director Removal by the board itself does not need to be mentioned in -7437bis. It is already dealt with in -struct and the bylaws of the LLC. This document should be about how the IETF does recall. I suggest the following:
> 
> 	• Strike 7.1 entirely
> 
> 	• Change 7.2:
> 
> OLD
> 
> 7.2. IESG and IAB Member, IETF Trust Trustee, and IETF LLC Director Recall
> 
> 7.2.1. Petition
> 
> 	• Compress the section because you no longer need a separate 7.1 and 7.2.
> pr
> --
> _______________________________________________
> iasa20 mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iasa20

---

From: "Livingood, Jason" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 19:48:19 +0000

Let me push back a little to expore the root of the concern...

IMO, a benefit of having the 7.1 text is that it reduces the number of other documents someone must read in order to understand the process. And even if we remove 7.1, we're basically still saying what 7.1 explains in the proposed revision to 7.2.1 - so I am unsure it poses a risk of over-specifying things.

What is the downside to having this text?

Thanks for your thoughts!
Jason

On 10/19/18, 3:18 PM, "iasa20 on behalf of Bob Hinden" <[email-masked] on behalf of [email-masked]> wrote:

    Pete,

    
    Bob

---

From: "Pete Resnick" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 16:15:27 -0500

OK, there are two bits to the proposed change, and I should have called 
them out separately:

1. There's the question of whether this document should say that the LLC 
board can remove one of its own. The only concern there is the 
(admittedly theoretical) possibility that the LLC board changes the 
rules for itself and can no longer remove one of its own, or can't do so 
to some particular director(s), or whatever. I don't see any particular 
upside to leaving this piece of information in, but I also won't stand 
in the way if folks want to leave it in.

2. Then there's the point that the statement saying LLC directors can be 
removed by recall is separate from the rest of the discussion of how to 
remove by recall. They shouldn't be separate. In the original text in 
-01, 7.1 never describes the process for recall, and 7.2 never refers to 
LLC directors. For example, the title of 7.2 makes it sound like those 
procedures are only for IAB, IESG, and the Trust, but I presume they 
equally apply to the LLC. And 7.1 refers to "this IETF recall process", 
but never gives a pointer to 7.2. I found it all confusing.

If you really want to preserve the bit about the LLC board being able to 
remove one of its own (and I repeat: I don't think you should), leave 
that in 7.1, but at least move all discussion of the recall process into 
7.2, including the recall of LLC directors.

pr

On 19 Oct 2018, at 14:48, Livingood, Jason wrote:

> IMO, a benefit of having the 7.1 text is that it reduces the number of 
> other documents someone must read in order to understand the process. 
> And even if we remove 7.1, we're basically still saying what 7.1 
> explains in the proposed revision to 7.2.1 - so I am unsure it poses a 
> risk of over-specifying things.
>
> On 10/19/18, 3:18 PM, "iasa20 on behalf of Bob Hinden" 
> <[email-masked] on behalf of [email-masked]> wrote:
>
>     Pete,
>
>     > Seems to me that LLC director Removal by the board itself does 
> not need to be mentioned in -7437bis. It is already dealt with in 
> -struct and the bylaws of the LLC. This document should be about how 
> the IETF does recall. I suggest the following:
>     >
>     > 	• Strike 7.1 entirely
>     >
>     > 	• Change 7.2:
>     >
>     > OLD
>     >

---

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 15:02:07 +1300

> What is the downside to having this text?

Attempts to duplicate rules in different documents usually end in tears.
Even a minor inconsistency can cause trouble. Since the LLC's formal documents
(and not the -struct document) will clearly be determinant in this case, I think
striking 7.1 is less confusing than keeping it.

   Brian

---

From: "Livingood, Jason" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 13:22:15 +0000

Agree. I think we plan to go with Pete's original suggestion now.

JL

On 10/19/18, 10:02 PM, "Brian E Carpenter" <[email-masked]> wrote:

    
       Brian

---

From: Bob Hinden <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 08:25:44 -0700

The text I have in my local version is:

7.  Member, Trustee, and Director Recall

   The following rules apply to the recall process.  If necessary, a
   paragraph discussing the interpretation of each rule is included.

   It applies to IESG and IAB Members, the NomCom appointed IETF Trust
   Trustees, and the NomCom appointed IETF LLC Directors.

7.1.  Petition

   Trust Trustee, or NomCom appointed IETF LLC Director.

   All individual and collective qualifications of NomCom eligibility
   are applicable, including that no more than two signatories may have
   the same primary affiliation.
   . . . . .

Bob

> On Oct 20, 2018, at 6:22 AM, Livingood, Jason <[email-masked]> wrote:
>