Subject: Re: [Idr] Draft on the textual representation of AS Numbers

From: "tom.petch" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 19:14:17 +0200

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffrey Haas" <[email-masked]>
To: "tom.petch" <[email-masked]>
Cc: "Paul Jakma" <[email-masked]>; "idr" <[email-masked]>
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 2:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Idr] Draft on the textual representation of AS Numbers

> On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 06:45:50PM +0200, tom.petch wrote:
> > I think that one of the great inventions that helped the progress of IPv4
was
> > dotted decimal, so simple that it is under-rated.  I do not want long AS
numbers
> > to be the experiment that demonstrates how great a convention dotted decimal
is
>
> I wasn't there and this is *complete* speculation:

I agree, but then much if not most of this thread is speculation.

Will the growth in AS numbers continue at it present rate, or will there be a
sudden upsurge taking us over 100,000?

Will the AS number remain structureless, or will a structure be imposed, 8-24,
16-16, 12-20, ...?

Will there be problems with the presentation of six digit numbers?

Will the presentation stay decimal based, or will there be a case for
hexadecimal?

There is very little network engineering in this thread, and much speculation,
based on experience, gut feel, ....  Sometimes that is the basis on which we
make a decision.

Tom Petch

> -- Jeff

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---

From: David Conrad <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 12:39:26 -0700

> sudden upsurge taking us over 100,000?

I'd be (more than) willing to bet Geoff's life that we'll go over  
100,000 ASes, even without a significant change in usage patterns.   
Going over 1,000,000 is more speculative (but I'd still be willing to  
bet Geoff's life :-)).

However, I'm not sure this matters all that much.  Presumably if  
presentation of AS numbers becomes problematic, routing software  
vendors will come out with tools to make input/verification of those  
AS numbers easier.

Regards,
-drc

---

From: Roque Gagliano <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 17:50:34 -0300

David,
> vendors will come out with tools to make input/verification of those

which will mean vendor-specific representations?

regards,
r.

---

From: Geoff Huston <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 07:31:38 +1000

On 30/08/2008, at 12:02 AM, Paul Jakma wrote:

> On Thu, 28 Aug 2008, tom.petch wrote:
>
>> And I do not see even-six digit numbers as easy to read, transcribe
>> and input accurately, I think that structure is needed at the level
>> of eg 142421 or 133322 to reduce the risks of transcription error.
>
> We already have ways of spacing decimal digits to increase
> legibility. The exact details differ between locales, but I believe
> SI recognises ',' or '.' to group on 10^(3n) boundaries (one more
> popular with British-influenced locales, the other for the more
> francophilic locales):
>
> 	142,421
> 	142.421
>
> Standard library routines exist to, at least, display numbers in such
> forms, in various languages.

errrrk - Is this post seriously proposing the use of a notation that
uses commas to create a grouping of 3 digit clusters?

please, "no" to this format!

---

From: Geoff Huston <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 07:36:42 +1000

> Going over 1,000,000 is more speculative (but I'd still be willing to

gee thanks David - I guess.

100,000 seems like life as normal for me too. 1 million is a bit of a  
stretch, but 100,000 seemed like a bit of a stretch 10 years ago.

> vendors will come out with tools to make input/verification of those

heh heh - never! I'll bet David's life that the CLI for the popular  
vendor's products will look precisely the same in 5 years time as it  
does now. Indeed I'll bet David's life that if aforesaid vendor is  
still in business 20 years from now it will be same CLI then too. :-)

---

From: Paul Jakma <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 10:15:35 +0100 (BST)

> uses commas to create a grouping of 3 digit clusters?

It was an observation (easily seen in this thread, including in your 
email after the above ;) ), that humans already have ways to space 
out large decimal numbers, which can be applied where they deem it 
appropriate.

I'm not in favour of the adoption of /any/ official seperator for 
ASNs and I hope we continue with the use of the traditional 'asplain' 
format. That said, whatever way people write ASNs in the privacy of 
their own NOCs is their own business.

regards,
-- 
Paul Jakma	[email-masked]	[email-masked]	Key ID: 64A2FF6A
Fortune:
A conclusion is simply the place where someone got tired of thinking.
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