Subject: Re: [Idr] draft-rfernando-idr-link-bandwidth-00.txt as IDR WGdocument

From: Rex Fernando <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 10:45:27 -0700

Hi Dimitri,

The revised version includes the following changes that you suggested we make:

(a) Note the fact that the value carried in the link-bandwidth extended community does not change with traffic levels (text added to section 2).

(b) Clarify the scenarios under which link bandwidth can be safely deployed (clarified in section 3)

I've attached the revised draft and the diff.

Thanks,
- Rex

|  -----Original Message-----
|  From: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri [mailto:Dimitri.Papadimitriou@alcatel-
|  lucent.be]
|  Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 10:08 AM
|  To: Rex Fernando; Yakov Rekhter; [email-masked]
|  Subject: RE: [Idr] draft-rfernando-idr-link-bandwidth-00.txt as IDR
|  WGdocument
|  
|  Hi Fernando:
|  
|  > -----Original Message-----
|  > From: Rex Fernando [mailto:[email-masked]]
|  > Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 8:57 PM
|  > To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; Yakov Rekhter; [email-masked]
|  > Subject: RE: [Idr] draft-rfernando-idr-link-bandwidth-00.txt
|  > as IDR WGdocument
|  >
|  > Hi Dimitri,
|  >
|  > |  The Link Bandwidth Community used to be part of the BGP Extended
|  > |  Communities Attribute document (now RFC4360) until it was
|  > removed in v09
|  > |  after review. At that it was stated that in order to perform
|  > |  BW-proportional BGP load-balancing, BGP multipath load
|  > balancing should
|  > |  be first documented. Isn't this condition still valid in
|  > the present
|  > |  case and the corr.mechanisms to be documented beyond
|  > limited deployment
|  > |  consideration part of Section 3?
|  >
|  > The draft lists the cases (although not in so many words)
|  > where link bandwidth can be safely deployed i.e. when the
|  > candidate paths are identical until the IGP distance step in
|  > path selection or you have a tunneled network. Either of
|  > these would ensure loop freedom. And that's all there is to it.
|  >
|  > We'll be happy to omit the word "multipath" from the draft
|  > since it lacks prior definition and expand on the deployment
|  > scenarios a bit if you feel strongly about it.
|  
|  I think we have first to agree on the definition of "link bandwidth"
|  
|  - either consider the link bandwidth as the "nominal link capacity"
|  which is thus a fixed and configured value (equivalent to link cost)
|  that does not result in variability in the multipath selection process
|  at the border router (PE1 in the slide material) beside local policy
|  decision. this would lead to a control-driven usage of this attribute.
|  
|  - or consider the link bandwidth as the "available link bandwidth" aka
|  "residual capacity" which thus leaves possibility for varying the
|  multipath selection process over time depending on the actual value of
|  this attribute. this would lead to a traffic-driven usage of this
|  attribute.
|  
|  I would be advisable that you clarify on this point to see how to
|  consider Section 3 statement:
|  
|  "The usage of this community is restricted to the cases where BGP
|  multipath can be safely deployed."
|  
|  Thanks,
|  -dimitri.
|  
|  > - Rex
|  >
|  >

---

From: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 22:51:36 +0200

Hi Fernando,

Changes address the initial concerns.

PS: In your revision, can you please also detail candidate route
propagation to an external neighbor so as to clarify processing at the
receiving speaker: is the BGP ID value still the tie breaker ? 

Thanks,
-dimitri.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rex Fernando [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:45 PM
> To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri; Yakov Rekhter; [email-masked]
> Subject: RE: [Idr] draft-rfernando-idr-link-bandwidth-00.txt 
> as IDR WGdocument
> 
> 
> Hi Dimitri,
> 
> (a) Note the fact that the value carried in the 
> link-bandwidth extended community does not change with 
> traffic levels (text added to section 2).
>

---

From: Robert Raszuk <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 14:02:58 -0700

Hi Dimitri,

 > receiving speaker: is the BGP ID value still the tie breaker ?

Can you elaborate how this draft in discussion here is at all related to 
the above ?

Perhaps this is not spelled out clearly in the draft, but this draft 
does not modify or have any influence on the bgp best path selection.

It only enters into the play where multipath candidates are already 
selected in the normal multipath check rules. If anything only multipath 
selection rules are relaxed implicitly by this draft in the specific 
cases of edge to egde tunneling/label switching.

Cheers,
R.

> _______________________________________________
> Idr mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
> 
>

---

From: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 00:33:18 +0200

Hi Robert,

> From: Robert Raszuk [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 11:03 PM
> To: PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri
> Cc: Rex Fernando; Yakov Rekhter; [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [Idr] draft-rfernando-idr-link-bandwidth-00.txt 
> as IDR WGdocument
> 
> Hi Dimitri,
> 
> Can you elaborate how this draft in discussion here is at all 
> related to the above ?
> 

The document suggests: 

"When a BGP speaker receives multiple paths from its internal peers, it
could select more than one path to send traffic to. 

[...]

The first scenario is when the candidate paths are identical until and
including the IGP distance step in the BGP decision process." 

On the other hand, per 9.1.2.2 (4271) a speaker "selects" only one of
these routes for inclusion in the associated Loc-RIB (reaching point f
the BGP ID tie breaker and subsequent applies).

> cases of edge to egde tunneling/label switching.

Wouldn't it be worth clarifying this "implicit relaxation" of the
selection rule (as a protocol  specifies messages/format but also
procedures) ? 
 
Thanks for clarifying,
-dimitri.

> >> |  Subject: RE: [Idr] 
> draft-rfernando-idr-link-bandwidth-00.txt as IDR
> >> |  WGdocument
> >> |  
> >> |  Hi Fernando:
> >> |

---

From: Robert Raszuk <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:45:07 -0700

Hi Dimitir,

> the BGP ID tie breaker and subsequent applies).

Well I see your point. 4271 does not talk about multipath. And neither 
this draft :) This draft just enhances the multipath.

The multipath alone as local box implementation matter may have not been 
spec-ed out as such. This is the point you are perhaps questioning.

If you are correct. The draft enhancing "multipath" should either define 
what it is or bring the reference to other document defining it. And 
such definition does not need to be a poem. It will just suffice to 
include one paragraph on what makes a path a multipath candidate and 
what are the exceptions if you have tunneled core deployed.

 > selection rule (as a protocol  specifies messages/format but also

Agreed. That would/should be part of general multipath definition.

Cheers,
R.

---

From: "Pradosh Mohapatra (pmohapat)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 08:54:25 -0700

| > 
| > "When a BGP speaker receives multiple paths from its 
| internal peers, 
| > it could select more than one path to send traffic to.
| > 
| > [...]
| > 
| > The first scenario is when the candidate paths are 
| identical until and 
| > including the IGP distance step in the BGP decision process."
| > 
| > On the other hand, per 9.1.2.2 (4271) a speaker "selects" 
| only one of 
| > these routes for inclusion in the associated Loc-RIB 
| (reaching point f 
| > the BGP ID tie breaker and subsequent applies).
| 
| Well I see your point. 4271 does not talk about multipath. 
| And neither this draft :) This draft just enhances the multipath.
| 
| The multipath alone as local box implementation matter may 
| have not been spec-ed out as such. This is the point you are 
| perhaps questioning.
| 
| If you are correct. The draft enhancing "multipath" should 
| either define what it is or bring the reference to other 
| document defining it. And such definition does not need to be 
| a poem. It will just suffice to include one paragraph on what 
| makes a path a multipath candidate and what are the 
| exceptions if you have tunneled core deployed.
| 
|  > Wouldn't it be worth clarifying this "implicit relaxation" 
| of the  > selection rule (as a protocol  specifies 
| messages/format but also  > procedures) ?
| 
| Agreed. That would/should be part of general multipath definition.

I agree. If there is enough interest to document generic multipath
mechanism, we should start a separate conversation. This document
is specific to link bandwidth for internal paths and we have listed
the criteria for selecting the multipaths in the revised version.

- Pradosh

---

From: Yakov Rekhter <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 08:58:00 -0700

Rex,

> (a) Note the fact that the value carried in the link-bandwidth extended 
> community does not change with traffic levels (text added to section 2).
> 

Please resubmit the revised draft as draft-ietf-idr-link-bandwidth-00.txt

Yakov.

> | =20
> | =20
> | =20
> | =20
> | =20
> | =20
> | =20
> | =20
> | =20
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---

From: "Yegenoglu, Ferit" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:53:32 -0400

Pradosh/Rex - 

Can you please clarify what you mean by "If there are multiple paths to
reach a destination and if only some of them have link bandwidth
community, the receiver should not perform unequal cost load balancing
based on link bandwidths."?

Does this mean that if there are multiple paths to the destination and
if all have the link bandwidth community the receiver can do unequal
cost load balancing based on link bandwidths? I thought the Link
Bandwidth extended community should be used for the purpose of load
balancing only when the IGP costs are identical.

Thanks,
Ferit

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of
Pradosh Mohapatra (pmohapat)
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:54 AM
To: [email-masked]; PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri
Cc: Yakov Rekhter; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Idr] draft-rfernando-idr-link-bandwidth-00.txt asIDR
WGdocument

| > 

- Pradosh

---

From: Robert Raszuk <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 13:34:53 -0700

Hi Ferit,

For real and true IP networks you are correct !

But for tunneled networks (IP tunneling or for that matter mpls) the 
condition of multipath candidate having equal IGP cost to reach it can 
be safely relaxed.

In most of the implementations I am familiar with there are knobs 
already today allowing you to ignore this equal IGP to the BGP next hop 
check.

Cheers,
R.

---

From: "PAPADIMITRIOU Dimitri" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 01:08:05 +0200

Pradosh & Robert:

> From: Pradosh Mohapatra (pmohapat) [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 5:54 PM
> asIDR WGdocument

This is what I point out in the original post.

> | exceptions if you have tunneled core deployed.

This is the necessary but sufficient condition to have the mechanism
specified in this document "interoperable". I mean in the sense that
independently of the actual implementation of the procedure itself, for
identical preconditions, the postconditions (that indicates the state
changes by invoking this procedure) must be identical. 

> the criteria for selecting the multipaths in the revised version.

Indeed, but a criterion is by definition the element on which a decision
process is based (toward an intended objective). Hence, criterion and
decision process are intrisically related.

Note also as it is not defined elsewhere, it can not be referenced.
-dimitri.