Subject: Re: False threads
From: [email-masked] (Kai Henningsen)
To: [email-masked]
Date: 24 Jul 1999 17:18:00 +0200

[email-masked] (Dan Wing)  wrote on 13.07.99 in <[email-masked]>:

> On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:52 +0200, Jacob Palme wrote:
>
> > Can anything be done about this? Perhaps mailers should
> > have a command "new message with the same recipients" for
> > this purpose?
>
> Most people, perhaps my mother excluded, will change the subject
> line.  This can be a simple test for a MUA to ask the user if they
> want to continue the previous thread.

In fact, that's exactly what thios one already does. It says something  
like "Subject changed - keep threading? Yes/No".

>   "An MUA SHOULD NOT generate a Reply-To/References header to a message
>    if the sender has modified the subject of the message."

Too strong.

MfG Kai

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:35:35 -0700 (PDT)
To: [email-masked]
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Withdrawl
Sender: [email-masked]

Hi,

We were just notified that our purchased mail list
included;

[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]

This is an error, and we have corrected the problem. If we
can assist in any way by further checking our list please
contact me directly.

Thanks,

Aaron
BUZZINE.com
Music & Entertainment

----------------------------------------------------------

The website:
http://www.buzzine.com

Email corrections:
http://www.buzzine.com/contact

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:33:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: [email-masked]
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Buzzine Confirmation
Sender: [email-masked]

Hi,

We have you listed as a FAX NOTIFY entry on our private
email list. If this is incorrect, please let us know. Your
email was not complete, and we don't want to add you if it
was an error. Spam is bad, even if it's an error.

Thanks,

BUZZINE.com
Music & Entertainment

----------------------------------------------------------

The website:
http://www.buzzine.com

Email corrections:
http://www.buzzine.com/contact

Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
From: "Al Costanzo" <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: False threads
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:42:59 -0500
Importance: Normal
Sender: [email-masked]

Get over it Ruth...

-Al

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of
Dan Wing
Sent: Monday, July 19, 1999 10:55 AM
To: ruth moulton
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: False threads

On Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:31 +0100, ruth moulton wrote:

> Please,
> 
> 
>  > > Most people, perhaps my mother excluded, will change the subject
>  > > line.  
> 
> I get really hacked off at this sort of comment. 
> 
> it's part of the drip drip drip of sexist language that women
> have to deal with in the computer industry, no wonder we are
> poorly represented
> 
> and it certainly does not represent the wealth of talent that
> mothers and women bring to science and technology, computing
> included
> 
> next time you need an example pick on another group of people, no,
> actually, don't pick on any group of people...

Sorry for my lack of 100% political correctness.

-Dan Wing

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:54:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dan Wing <[email-masked]>
To: ruth moulton <[email-masked]>
cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: False threads
Sender: [email-masked]

On Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:31 +0100, ruth moulton wrote:

> Please,
> 
> 
>  > > Most people, perhaps my mother excluded, will change the subject
>  > > line.  
> 
> I get really hacked off at this sort of comment. 
> 
> it's part of the drip drip drip of sexist language that women
> have to deal with in the computer industry, no wonder we are
> poorly represented
> 
> and it certainly does not represent the wealth of talent that
> mothers and women bring to science and technology, computing
> included
> 
> next time you need an example pick on another group of people, no,
> actually, don't pick on any group of people...

Sorry for my lack of 100% political correctness.

-Dan Wing

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:31:02 +0100 (BST)
From: ruth moulton <[email-masked]>
to: <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: False threads
Cc: [email-masked]
Disposition-notification-to: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]

Please,

 > > Most people, perhaps my mother excluded, will change the subject
 > > line.  

I get really hacked off at this sort of comment. 

it's part of the drip drip drip of sexist language that women
have to deal with in the computer industry, no wonder we are
poorly represented

and it certainly does not represent the wealth of talent that
mothers and women bring to science and technology, computing
included

next time you need an example pick on another group of people, no,
actually, don't pick on any group of people...

-- 
================================================
Ruth Moulton            [email-masked]
Consultant        http://www.muswell.demon.co.uk

65 Tetherdown, 
London N.10 1NH, UK     Tel:+44 (0208) 883 5823

-- 

From: "Mariano Absatz" <[email-masked]>
To: Lista IETF - RFC-822 <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:01:27 -0300
Subject: Re: False threads
Sender: [email-masked]

El 13 Jul 99, a las 13:33, Dan Wing escribió:

> On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:52 +0200, Jacob Palme wrote:
> 
> > Can anything be done about this? Perhaps mailers should
> > have a command "new message with the same recipients" for
> > this purpose?
This is kind of an implementation issue, I don't think this would be such 
a good idea to put this kind of stuff in a protocol standard (except, 
maybe as a note to implementors)

> 
> Most people, perhaps my mother excluded, will change the subject
> line.  This can be a simple test for a MUA to ask the user if they
> want to continue the previous thread.
> 
> > Has anyone thought about this problem and how
> > to solve it? Can anything be done in email standards to
> > solve this problem?
> 
>   "An MUA SHOULD NOT generate a Reply-To/References header to a message
>    if the sender has modified the subject of the message."

There is a custom of changing the subject within a thread (referencing 
the old subject) when a thread departed from the original point (at 
least, from the original subject meaning)

As if I had changed the subject of this message to
Subject: thinks that shouldn't be in a standard (was Re: False threads)

What Dan propones would break this... I am more inclined to like what 
Jacob says, but if we put it in a standard, only as an implementors note.

Just my 2 cents.

--
Mariano Absatz - El Baby
mailto:[email-masked]
http://www.baby.com.ar/
    PGP KEYS: http://www.baby.com.ar/datos/personales.html#claves_pgp
  |\  _
  _\\/'>     Powered by Pegasus Mail
 /|__)       http://www.pegasus.usa.com
  ) )\       http://www.let.rug.nl/pegasus/

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:28:35 -0400
From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Does Header-people still exist
Originator-info: login-id=klensin; server=localhost
To: Dan Kohn <[email-masked]>
Cc: "[email-masked]'" <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]

--On Thursday, July 15, 1999, 08:12 -0700 Dan Kohn <[email-masked]>
wrote:

> How can I subscribe to the headers-people mailing list (which is
> gatewayed to comp.mail.headers)?
> 
> I get an error when sending to [email-masked].

Sorry.  There has been substantially no traffic in the last year or so, and
I've more or less been trying to find energy to officially shut it down.
Hadn't realized that the -request alias still pointed to that particular
obsolete alias/host name.

I'll try to clean things up --and get you on the list so you can see the
"going away now" message :-), but, at a message or two a year that isn't a
copy of things sent elsewhere, there doesn't seem to be a lot of point in
continuing.

And, yes, to the extent that header-people serves a function, it has
largely been taken over by ietf-822, so you found the right place.

   John Klensin
   Maintainer, [email-masked]

From: Dan Kohn <[email-masked]>
To: "[email-masked]'" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Does Header-people still exist
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:12:45 -0700
Sender: [email-masked]

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------ =_NextPart_000_01BECED2.D237D622
Content-Type: text/plain

How can I subscribe to the headers-people mailing list (which is
gatewayed to comp.mail.headers)?

I get an error when sending to [email-masked].

TIA.

		- dan
--
Daniel Kohn <mailto:[email-masked]>
+1-425-519-7968 (voice)   602-6223 (fax)
http://www.dankohn.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Thursday, 1999-07-15 00:43
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Returned mail: Cannot send message within 1 week, 1 day

The original message was received at Wed, 7 Jul 1999 03:39:50 -0400
(EDT)
from [216.190.22.34]

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
[email-masked]
    (expanded from: klensin)

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
[email-masked]... Deferred: Name server: infoods.unu.edu.: host
name lookup failure
Message could not be delivered for 1 week, 1 day
Message will be deleted from queue

------ =_NextPart_000_01BECED2.D237D622
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="ATT61093.TXT"
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="ATT61093.TXT"

Reporting-MTA: dns; mc.lcs.mit.edu
Arrival-Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 03:39:50 -0400 (EDT)

Final-Recipient: RFC822; [email-masked]
X-Actual-Recipient: RFC822; [email-masked]
Action: failed
Status: 4.4.7
Remote-MTA: DNS; infoods.unu.edu
Last-Attempt-Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 03:43:26 -0400 (EDT)

------ =_NextPart_000_01BECED2.D237D622
Content-Type: message/rfc822

Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
From: Dan Kohn <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: 
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 00:41:16 -0700 
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3)
Content-Type: text/plain

subscribe

------ =_NextPart_000_01BECED2.D237D622--

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:16:06 +0200
To: IETF mailing list on MIME and e-mail  <[email-masked]>
From: Jacob Palme <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: False threads
Sender: [email-masked]

At 16.54 +0200 99-07-14, Christopher Hicks wrote:
> Of course there's no way to tell that a given email address, like
> [email-masked], isn't going to many people.

There is, if RFC 2369 is used.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jacob Palme <[email-masked]> (Stockholm University and KTH)
for more info see URL: http://www.dsv.su.se/~jpalme

From: Keith Moore <[email-masked]>
To: Christopher Hicks <[email-masked]>
cc: Keith Moore <[email-masked]>, IETF mailing list on MIME and e-mail <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: False threads 
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:43:24 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]

> Of course there's no way to tell that a given email address, like
> [email-masked], isn't going to many people.  This email has 2
> recipients, but hundreds will see it.  Fewer people would get an email
> with 20 distinct recipients which didn't include mailing lists.

yes, but after a few replies the message tends to acquire additional
recipients, which helps the heuristic work.

Keith

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:49:49 +0200
To: IETF mailing list on MIME and e-mail <[email-masked]>
From: Jacob Palme <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: False threads
Sender: [email-masked]

At 22.33 +0200 99-07-13, Dan Wing wrote:
>   "An MUA SHOULD NOT generate a Reply-To/References header to a message
>    if the sender has modified the subject of the message."

Good idea, but could be modified to:

"An MUA SHOULD NOT generate an In-Reply-To/References header to a message,
when the sender has modified the subject, without asking the sender
if this does belong to the same thread."

I am thinking of another idea, that you in such cases might generate
"In-Reply-To" but not "References"? With the new definition of "References"
in the drums msg-fmt document, "In-Reply-To" really has become almost
superfluous. This might be one reasonable way to use it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jacob Palme <[email-masked]> (Stockholm University and KTH)
for more info see URL: http://www.dsv.su.se/~jpalme

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:54:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hicks <[email-masked]>
To: Keith Moore <[email-masked]>
cc: IETF mailing list on MIME and e-mail <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: False threads 
Organization: Flamingo Internet Navigators
Sender: [email-masked]

On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Keith Moore wrote:
> message that should probably be asked anytime a user tries to 
> "reply all" to a message with a large number of recipients.

Of course there's no way to tell that a given email address, like
[email-masked], isn't going to many people.  This email has 2
recipients, but hundreds will see it.  Fewer people would get an email
with 20 distinct recipients which didn't include mailing lists.

-- 
</chris>

If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them
down?  We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.

To: Keith Moore <[email-masked]>
cc: IETF mailing list on MIME and e-mail <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: False threads 
From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 02:40:55 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]

On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 02:13:03 EDT, Keith Moore said:
> in general, user agent design needs to realize that there is a
> difference between "continuing a discussion", and "starting a
> new discussion" (even if it involves the same people).

The biggest problem is distinguishing between the two cases and their
intermediaries.  A new branch could be just a bit off topic, a lot off
topic, or totally unrelated.

Also, note that quite often, it doesn't *become* a new branch when you
post the slightly-off-topic reply - it becomes one when somebody
replies to *that*.  In other words, a branch or sub-branch in the tree
has to be of length at least 2 - if that branch is length 1, it's just
a reply, not a branch.

The 'gnus' Emacs package seems to Do The Right Thing at least with
netnews. When threading, it sorts all the threads into a full tree and
then allowing branch-based pruning.  I presume that most other modern
newsreaders do similar threading features.

Something that *must* be remembered is that  most newsreaders have
fairly full context available on backing store - the news server has
all the recent articles available.  However, an E-mail MUA will
usually/often/almost-always be missing large sections of a thread (I
know I've already deleted at least half the postings on this subject).

				Valdis Kletnieks
				Computer Systems Senior Engineer
				Virginia Tech

From: Keith Moore <[email-masked]>
To: Dan Wing <[email-masked]>
cc: Jacob Palme <[email-masked]>, IETF mailing list on MIME and e-mail <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: False threads 
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 02:13:03 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]

this is like the

"do you really want to reply to all of these recipients?"

message that should probably be asked anytime a user tries to 
"reply all" to a message with a large number of recipients.

similarly, the user should be asked if he/she wants to change
the subject for any thread that goes on for awhile.

in general, user agent design needs to realize that there is a
difference between "continuing a discussion", and "starting a
new discussion" (even if it involves the same people).

Keith

To: IETF mailing list on MIME and e-mail <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Sub-trees (was Re: False threads) 
From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:16:48 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]

On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:54:33 EDT, [email-masked] said:
> >   "An MUA SHOULD NOT generate a Reply-To/References header to a message
> >    if the sender has modified the subject of the message."

On further pondering, the correct test is not "has the user modified
the Subject: tag", but rather "has the user included any cited text".

If there's cited text, it's either another entry in a thread or the
start of a new subthread.  If there's no cited text, there's no
context of the thread left, and thus it's not on the thread anymore.

This of course is merely a heuristic, not an algorithm, as
every once in a while, a follow-up is made that doesn't leave any
cited material.  But it's probably close enough for a "SHOULD (NOT)"
requirement.

/Valdis

To: Dan Wing <[email-masked]>
Cc: Jacob Palme <[email-masked]>, IETF mailing list on MIME and e-mail <[email-masked]>
Subject: Sub-trees (was Re: False threads)
From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:54:33 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]

--==_Exmh_-1526111608P
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:33:39 PDT, Dan Wing said:
> Most people, perhaps my mother excluded, will change the subject
> line.  This can be a simple test for a MUA to ask the user if they
> want to continue the previous thread.

What about sub-threads and branches in a thread tree?

>   "An MUA SHOULD NOT generate a Reply-To/References header to a message
>    if the sender has modified the subject of the message."

-- 
				Valdis Kletnieks
				Computer Systems Senior Engineer
				Virginia Tech

Subject: Sub-trees (was Re: False threads)

What do you do there?

--==_Exmh_-1526111608P
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature

--==_Exmh_-1526111608P--

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:33:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dan Wing <[email-masked]>
To: Jacob Palme <[email-masked]>
cc: IETF mailing list on MIME and e-mail <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: False threads
Sender: [email-masked]

On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:52 +0200, Jacob Palme wrote:

> Can anything be done about this? Perhaps mailers should
> have a command "new message with the same recipients" for
> this purpose?

Most people, perhaps my mother excluded, will change the subject
line.  This can be a simple test for a MUA to ask the user if they
want to continue the previous thread.

> Has anyone thought about this problem and how
> to solve it? Can anything be done in email standards to
> solve this problem?

  "An MUA SHOULD NOT generate a Reply-To/References header to a message
   if the sender has modified the subject of the message."

-Dan Wing

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:52:52 +0200
To: IETF mailing list on MIME and e-mail <[email-masked]>
From: Jacob Palme <[email-masked]>
Subject: False threads
Sender: [email-masked]

In the future, we can expect much better support for
threads in e-mail. For example commands to scan threads
back and forwards, list all messages in a thread, etc.

One problem with this is that "false" threads are very
frequent in e-mail. False threads occur, because people are
using their collection of old messages as an address book.
When they want to write to one or more people, they find an
old message to or from the same people, and use the "reply"
command on that, not because it is a reply, but because
this is a simple way of getting the right addresses in the
recipient fields of the new message.

Can anything be done about this? Perhaps mailers should
have a command "new message with the same recipients" for
this purpose? Has anyone thought about this problem and how
to solve it? Can anything be done in email standards to
solve this problem?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jacob Palme <[email-masked]> (Stockholm University and KTH)
for more info see URL: http://www.dsv.su.se/~jpalme

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 19:02:15 +0200
To: "Al Costanzo" <[email-masked]>, "MIME" <[email-masked]>, "IETF-822" <[email-masked]>
From: Jacob Palme <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ISO Documents
Sender: [email-masked]

At 05.02 +0200 99-07-02, Al Costanzo wrote:
> Hello Everyone!
>
> Does anyone know if these documents exist anywhere online?
>
> I looked at the ISO website to no avail.
>
> They are:
>
> [ISO3166-1] ISO 3166-1:1997 Codes for the representation of names of
> countries and their subdivisions -- Part 1: Country codes.

Yes, at http://www-mathdoc.ujf-grenoble.fr/textes/NormesCat/country_codes.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jacob Palme <[email-masked]> (Stockholm University and KTH)
for more info see URL: http://www.dsv.su.se/~jpalme

To: "Al Costanzo" <[email-masked]>
cc: "MIME" <[email-masked]>, "IETF-822" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ISO Documents 
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 22:58:40 -0400
From: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]

Try <http://www.din.de/gremien/nas/nabd/iso3166ma/>

Donald

From:  "Al Costanzo" <[email-masked]>
Message-ID:  <[email-masked]>
Reply-To:  "Al Costanzo" <[email-masked]>
To:  "MIME" <[email-masked]>, "IETF-822" <[email-masked]>
Cc:  "Al Costanzo" <[email-masked]>
Date:  Thu, 1 Jul 1999 22:02:58 -0500
Organization:  AKC Computer Services Corp.
List-Archive:  <http://www.imc.org/ietf-822/mail-archive/>
List-Unsubscribe:  <mailto:[email-masked]?body=unsubscribe>

>Hello Everyone!
>
>Does anyone know if these documents exist anywhere online?
>
>I looked at the ISO website to no avail.
>
>They are:
>
>[ISO3166-1] ISO 3166-1:1997 Codes for the representation of names of
>countries and their subdivisions -- Part 1: Country codes.
>
>[ISO3166-2] ISO/DIS 3166-2 Codes for the representation of names of
>countries and their subdivisions -- Part 2: Country subdivision code.
>
>
>

Reply-To: "Al Costanzo" <[email-masked]>
From: "Al Costanzo" <[email-masked]>
To: "MIME" <[email-masked]>, "IETF-822" <[email-masked]>
Cc: "Al Costanzo" <[email-masked]>
Subject: ISO Documents
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 22:02:58 -0500
Organization: AKC Computer Services Corp.
Sender: [email-masked]

Hello Everyone!

Does anyone know if these documents exist anywhere online?

I looked at the ISO website to no avail.

They are:

[ISO3166-1] ISO 3166-1:1997 Codes for the representation of names of
countries and their subdivisions -- Part 1: Country codes.

[ISO3166-2] ISO/DIS 3166-2 Codes for the representation of names of
countries and their subdivisions -- Part 2: Country subdivision code.