Subject: [Ietf-languages] Armenian (was: Re: ISO 639-3 changes, part 3)

From: "Doug Ewell" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 15:14:03 -0700

Up to now we have had one language subtag for Armenian:

Type: language
Subtag: hy
Description: Armenian
Added: 2005-10-16
Suppress-Script: Armn

ignoring, of course, the subtags 'aen' and 'axm' and 'xcl', which are
for different languages, and 'hyx', which is a collection.

We also have these variants:

Type: variant
Subtag: arevela
Description: Eastern Armenian
Added: 2006-09-18
Prefix: hy

Type: variant
Subtag: arevmda
Description: Western Armenian
Added: 2006-09-18
Prefix: hy

Now, with the 639-3 changes, we will have a new language subtag:

Type: language
Subtag: hyw
Description: Western Armenian
Added: 2018-xx-xx

and I have suggested attaching "see also" comments to 'hy' and 'hyw'
that reference each other.

On February 20, Kent Karlsson asked:

> Does this mean that
>
> Subtag: arevela
>
> [and]
>
> Subtag: arevmda
>
> should be deprecated (with the latter referencing hyw as preferred)?

I'm not the Reviewer, but here are my thoughts.

RFC 5646, Section 3.4, item 15 (B) says:

"For all subtags whose meaning is derived from an external standard
(that is, by ISO 639, ISO 15924, ISO 3166-1, or UN M.49), if a new
meaning is assigned to an existing code and the new meaning broadens the
meaning of that code, then the meaning for the associated subtag MAY be
changed to match.  The meaning of a subtag MUST NOT be narrowed,
however, as this can result in an unknown proportion of the existing
uses of a subtag becoming invalid.  Note: the ISO 639 registration
authority (RA) has adopted a similar stability policy."

As I see it, then, the fact that a new code element for "Western
Armenian" has been approved should not be interpreted as meaning that
the existing code element for "Armenian" now refers only to Eastern (or
"Standard") Armenian, because that interpretation would invalidate some
existing tags. (That's why we deprecate subtags instead of deleting
them.) So content tagged "hy" can still refer to any brand of (modern)
Armenian.

However, the entire purpose of 'hyw' being registered is to allow new
content in Western Armenian to be tagged as such. In practice, this
implies that future applications of the existing subtag 'hy' would be
for Eastern Armenian content only. This is not a de jure narrowing, but
a de facto one, and in that regard is unfortunate.

My suggestions would be:

1. Deprecate the variant 'arevmda' with a Preferred-Value of "hyw" (the
tag consisting of the new language subtag "hyw").

2. Leave the variant 'arevela' unchanged (NOT deprecated), as
"hy-arevela" specifically refers to Eastern Armenian, whereas "hy" might
refer either to Eastern Armenian or to Armenian in general.

3. Leave the two "see also" Comments fields as I have proposed them.

IMHO, (2) is similar to using a "suppressed" script subtag (as
"en-Latn") to call special attention to the script in use, as opposed to
leaving it out ("en"), where the meaning (for written content) can
generally be assumed but is not emphasized or even guaranteed.

If there is agreement, I will post forms for 'arevmda' to implement (2).

--
Doug Ewell | Thornton, CO, US | ewellic.org

---

From: John Cowan <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 18:11:54 -0500

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 5:14 PM, Doug Ewell <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Suppress-Script: Armn

This is true.  I believe, however, that this has always meant Standard
(i.e. Eastern) Armenian, the national language of Armenia.  Both the
proposers of 'hyw' and the RA appear to agree on this point, even though
the name associated with the code is simply "Armenian".  The request at <
http://www-01.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/2017-023.pdf> says "The code
elements "hy". "hye", and "arm" function primarily to identify the national
language of the Republic of Armenia, and for stability we do not request
that these codes be changed."  The response at <
http://www-01.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/PastComments/CR_Comments_2017-023.pdf>
similarly says: "The request to create the new code element [hyw] for
Western Armenian is accepted. When a similar request was submitted six
years ago (2011-176), the request was rejected on the grounds that the
linguistic differences between Western Armenian and standard Armenian were
not great enough to meet the criteria of the standard."

By the same token, 'de' is used to tag Standard German, not any random
German variety such as Bavarian, Swiss German, Low Saxon, or other Germanic
languages spoken in the German-speaking lands, even though its name is just
"German" and not "Standard German".

Therefore, I believe that with the hy/hyw distinction in place we should
deprecate both variant codes.

-- 
John Cowan          http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan        [email-masked]
We are lost, lost.  No name, no business, no Precious, nothing.  Only empty.
Only hungry: yes, we are hungry.  A few little fishes, nassty bony little
fishes, for a poor creature, and they say death.  So wise they are; so just,
so very just.  --Gollum

---

From: Arthur Reutenauer <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 10:14:23 +0100

> (i.e. Eastern) Armenian, the national language of Armenia.

  That seems to be contradicted by the fact that we registered a subtag
for Western Armenian, with [hy] as a prefix.

>                                                          The request at <
> that these codes be changed."

  The quote does say “primarily”; I don’t interpret this as
a statement by the requesters that [hy] only is used with the stricter
meaning of Standard Armenian.

	Best,

		Arthur