Subject: SV: newbie question

From: "Thomas Scholz" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:19:42 +0100

Microsoft IPv6 stack is pretty feature lacking. I works, but they still
haven't made IIS or any other program compatible with IPv6. And they have
removed numricc URLs in XP, now you can only call AAAA records. But if a
AAAA record is found, it tries it before the A record.

XP's new stack has some enhancements over the one 2000 is using. They have
made it possible to view connection with netstat, and a few more
configuration options.

But still, they are a long way from completing it.

+-----< Thomas Scholz >---- --- -- -
| E-Mail: [ [email-masked] ]  PGP:          [ 0x23E4B5F0 ]
| ICQ:    [ 4838106 ]           IPv6 (6Bone): [ 3ffe:b80:2:67::2 ]
+-----< http://tscholz.2y.net >---- --- -- -

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: Anssi Porttikivi [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sendt: 1. november 2001 13:33
Til: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]
Emne: RE: newbie question

Is there any documentation of XP IP6 anywhere? Which included software
besides the TCP/IP stack is able to open IP6 sockets?

I've been told these can:

- IE
- ftp text mode client
- ping6, tracert6, 6to4cfg?

They all can process IP6 textual addresses and resolve DNS names to IP6
also, which I guess usually goes together with being able to open IP6
sockets. IE also can open IP6 numeric URLs in the form of http://[::1]/

Can you configure the address selection criteria of XP in any way? If
DNS returns both an IP4 and IP6 address, which is the application using?

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From: Robert Elz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 13:58:13 +0700

Date:        Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:19:42 +0100
    From:        "Thomas Scholz" <[email-masked]>
    Message-ID:  <[email-masked]>

  | And they have removed numricc URLs in XP,

I'm not a user of any of their systems, so I'm just guessing what this
means, but if it is what it sounds like, it will be a HUGE win for the
internet as a whole way off into the distant future (provided they
resist the temptation to give way to the very few people who suffer
some negative impact - who are over represented in the IETF for sure).

This one (assuming it is as I am guessing) deserves a great vote of thanks.

kre

---

From: "Jeroen Massar" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:15:10 +0100

Robert Elz wrote:
> To: Thomas Scholz

With "numberic URL's" they probably mean the
http://[2001:6e0::1]/example/ addressing...

> This one (assuming it is as I am guessing) deserves a great vote of
thanks.
Wellps... from a developers & network point of view one would like to
see that feature though
As one could quickly check if a site is running without adding dns
entries... then again
most network people have knowledge enough to use telnet <ip> 80 and
issue a get to test that out ;)
And it surely 'saves' the surfing crowd from the IP hassle... and though
the above example can probably
be remembered correctly... I don't think many people would like a full
EUI-64 IP to remember <grin>
But that's why we got that nice DNS system ;)

Greets,
 Jeroen

---

From: Robert Elz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 18:01:56 +0700

Date:        Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:15:10 +0100
    From:        "Jeroen Massar" <[email-masked]>
    Message-ID:  <[email-masked]>

Aside: I'm not on [email-masked] so the copies
of messages I'm sending to that just bounce.   I'm leaving it there so
replies others send won't drop the list by accident.   But do be aware
that readers of that list will be seeing only a one sided exchange.

  | With "numberic URL's" they probably mean the
  | http://[2001:6e0::1]/example/ addressing...

That's what I assumed.

  | Wellps... from a developers & network point of view one would like to
  | see that feature though

Yes, as I said, the IETF is over represented with people who can perhaps
make reasonable use of it, and should know when to, and when not to.

But the much wider Internet community is not.

  | As one could quickly check if a site is running without adding dns
  | entries...

If it is running without DNS entries, what use is it?   Especially if
a popular browser doesn't support finding it any other way?   It might
just as well be down.

The supposed justification for those things is for accessing things that
aren't web sites but just happen to use http as a config tool, and similar.

  | And it surely 'saves' the surfing crowd from the IP hassle...

It isn't the hassle - it is that if these things work, they will get
embedded in web pages.   Perhaps by some web page designer who has
calculated that their web pages load 70ms faster (avoiding 3 or 4 DNS
lookups) when embedded addresses are used.

But that then makes it almost impossible to ever change those addresses,
if you fear that some other site might have links to your web pages
using numeric addresses, and you want to keep attracting visitors, rather
than discouraging them, then you have to keep the same address forever.

That's not what we want.

The best way to avoid that is to simply make this fail, and if that is
what Microsoft have done, then I applaud their foresight.

Note: I don't mind as much if "numeric URLs" work when some user types
them into a locator box - that's much less of a problem.  Where they
really must not work, is when they're extracted from HTML.   (Of course,
typically, one parser will handle all cases, so breaking them for one
breaks them for all.)

kre

---

From: "Jeroen Massar" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 13:03:25 +0100

Robert Elz <[email-masked]> wrote:
> To: Jeroen Massar
<SNIP>
> aren't web sites but just happen to use http as a config 
Ah.... I usually simply throw those into dns also... I hate remembering
IP's :)
Actually I remember only the IP of some shellboxes which should always
work
that way I can always ssh in and use the tools there to do the
resolving...

> lookups) when embedded addresses are used.
They should learn those 'webdesigners' to use .. in url's ;)

> using numeric addresses, and you want to keep attracting 
> visitors, rather than discouraging them, then you have to keep the
same address forever.
On another note.... though that's probably more userspace related...

Scenario:
Company has a webserver with 1 nic in it... they use rtsols to get a
route and do a nice autoconfig.
The nic in the webserver dies (made in holland blabla ;) and they
exchange it with a new one.
Because of the new nic the IPv6 autoconfigged address changes and thus
alongside the downtime because
of the nic-brokage they now also have DNS downtime (till TTL)...

Wouldn't it be nice to have a script or other defacto functionality
which would then get the EUI-64 part from a database/file/setting/...
and then using the prefix it gets from the rtsol to config an alias IP
for the webserver.
This so the DNS can contain the IP address of the webserver say
f00:b44::80 (which takes care of the nic-breaking problem).

Point of problem: The prefix changes, admins know it and start updating
the dns, the machine is notified with router announcements and the
autoconfigged address (the real EUI-64 enabled one) automagically gets
enabled, the old one goes away
when it's TTL expires... The f00:b44::80 IP though doesn't get notified
yet...

What this would need (and haven't found in the most common IPv6 stack
implementations, unless something like this would need to be hacked in)
is somekind of notify of rtsols, or a facility where one can specify
which EUI-64 part a host should also bind too
as an alias... yup I am preferring the EUI-64 address instead of this
'virtual' one...

> really must not work, is when they're extracted from HTML.   
> (Of course, typically, one parser will handle all cases, so breaking
them for one breaks them for all.)
IE handles URL's with the dll wininet.dll, as the functionality of the
numberic URL's have been taken out from there
any program using wininet.dll (for instance WinAmp and Cam32) don't
support it anymore either...
So maybe in this case the parser (mshtml.dll :) still does know about
the numberic stuff ? :)

Greets,
 Jeroen

---

From: Robert Elz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 19:43:50 +0700

Date:        Tue, 6 Nov 2001 13:03:25 +0100
    From:        "Jeroen Massar" <[email-masked]>
    Message-ID:  <[email-masked]>

This time I took the msripv6... address out of the headers, nothing
vendor specific left in this message.

  | Ah.... I usually simply throw those into dns also...

Me too.   The (lame) argument is "but I need to use http to configure
the DNS" (as if the DNS isn't (at least) have its own address in there,
essentially all of the time...)

  | Wouldn't it be nice to have a script or other defacto functionality
  | which would then get the EUI-64 part from a database/file/setting/...
  | and then using the prefix it gets from the rtsol to config an alias IP
  | for the webserver.

Yes, a way by which the implementation would remember the address it
auto-config itself before, and repeat that would be useful.   This is
an implementation feature (or lack thereof) though.

  | is somekind of notify of rtsols, or a facility where one can specify
  | which EUI-64 part a host should also bind too

I have also wanted (for other reasons) to be able to specify just the
interface ID part of the IPv6 address, and have the autoconf code then
apply that to prefixes advertised from the router(s).  This is the kind
of thing that (I expect) will appear as more experience is gained with
the implementations.

kre