Subject: IPR agenda for Vancouver

From: Harald Alvestrand <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:16:12 +0100

This is the first draft of the agenda. Please comment.

Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) AGENDA

Meeting : IETF 70, Vancouver, December , 2007
Time    : Tuesday, December 4, 09:00-11:30
Location: Oak
Chairs  : Harald Alvestrand
Agenda  : version 1.0 (draft)
====================================================
0900: Administrativia
- NOTE WELL
- Selection of scribe
- Agenda bashing
- Blue sheet

0910: Status of WG documents
Documents:
- draft-ietf-ipr-3978-incoming-03.txt
- draft-ietf-ipr-outbound-rights-04.txt
WG Last Call ends on <insert date>.

0915: Issues raised so far at Last Call
This time will be spent discussing issues RAISED ON THE LIST.
If there are no issues raised, we will not spend any time here.

0945: Instructions to the Trust
- Review of instructions to the Trust in the RFCs
- Additional advice that the WG wishes to convey

1015: Review of charter to verify that we're done

1030: Potential new items in the IPR area

For each item, we will have a draft and a presenter, give a short timeslot
for presenting, and some time for discussion. The resolution will be one of:
- Recommend that the proposal goes forward as an individual submission,
with or without using the IPR WG list for discussion
- Recommend that the proposal is adopted as a WG item
- Recommend that the proposal be dropped

- 1030: draft-carpenter-ipr-patent-frswds-01 (Scott Brim)
- 1045: draft-hallambaker-ipr-patent-harmonization-00 (Phil Hallam-Baker)
- 1100: draft-josefsson-free-standards-howto-01 (Scott Brim)

1115: Any Other Business

1125: Summary and action items
- This may include "disband the group", if core documents are finished and
the group has not proposed to adopt more work.

1130: Close of meeting

_______________________________________________
Ipr-wg mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipr-wg

---

From: "TS Glassey" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:13:22 -0800

Chair and IESG,
This is a formal objection to being suspended by Mr. Alverstrand without
warning or commentary or complaint of anyone in that WG other than the WG
Chair in the IPR WG.

My Alvestrand suspended me for three weeks again without warning based
apparently on what he himself perceived as 'too many postings', but he
neither made any warning and this suspension happened the day of the Chair's
reversing his fraudulent suspension of my posting rights for the last year.

I suggest that you review this matter before attorney's get into this,
because by comparison with other WG's this is way out of line considering in
the NTP WG for instance Danny Mayer and others post tens of instances in a
single day. As such Mr. Alverstrands actions are clearly adversarial putting
the IETF itself in a position where it is formally causing me and others Mr.
Averstrand's actions taint, significant damage.

Since the IETF hass already apologiezed through Mr. Housley for the mistake 
that Mr. Alverstrand promulgated and benefitted from for a calendar year, I 
want the suspension lifted and Mr Alverstrand disciplined for this action.

Have a nice day,
Todd Glassey

---

From: Harald Alvestrand <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:40:43 +0100

Changing the subject line, since this has nothing to do with the agenda
for Vancouver:

Just a few facts....

> warning or commentary or complaint of anyone in that WG other than the WG
Mr. Glassey has been frequently warned against off-topic postings.
>
> My Alvestrand suspended me for three weeks again
The suspension was for two weeks. It has now expired.
> without warning based
> apparently on what he himself perceived as 'too many postings',
The given reason was "multiple off-topic postings".

No other comments.

---

From: "Walls, Endre" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:34:28 -0500

Todd,

You were suspended for 2 weeks because your posts were unnecessarily
abrasive. You need to learn to get your point across without insulting
people.

I personally agreed with the suspension after reading just 3 of your
posts. We can't get anything done if people are going to use the lists
to act like jerks. The suspension happened shortly after I posted a
complaint to Mr. Alvestrand.

I request the chair support the suspension if it convinces Mr. Glassey
to offer his comments and ideas in a way that is collaborative and
cordial.

Regards,

Endre Walls

-----Original Message-----
From: TS Glassey [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 11:13 AM
To: Harald Alvestrand; [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: IPR agenda for Vancouver

Chair and IESG,
This is a formal objection to being suspended by Mr. Alverstrand without
warning or commentary or complaint of anyone in that WG other than the
WG
Chair in the IPR WG.

My Alvestrand suspended me for three weeks again without warning based
apparently on what he himself perceived as 'too many postings', but he
neither made any warning and this suspension happened the day of the
Chair's
reversing his fraudulent suspension of my posting rights for the last
year.

I suggest that you review this matter before attorney's get into this,
because by comparison with other WG's this is way out of line
considering in
the NTP WG for instance Danny Mayer and others post tens of instances in
a
single day. As such Mr. Alverstrands actions are clearly adversarial
putting
the IETF itself in a position where it is formally causing me and others
Mr.
Averstrand's actions taint, significant damage.

Since the IETF hass already apologiezed through Mr. Housley for the
mistake 
that Mr. Alverstrand promulgated and benefitted from for a calendar
year, I 
want the suspension lifted and Mr Alverstrand disciplined for this
action.

Have a nice day,
Todd Glassey

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Harald Alvestrand" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 2:16 AM
Subject: IPR agenda for Vancouver

> for presenting, and some time for discussion. The resolution will be
one
> of:

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The information is intended only for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, be 
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this electronic transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying to the address listed in the "From:" field.

---

From: "TS Glassey" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:19:18 -0800

Chair
I assert that this punitive-suspension was a matter  based on the Harald 
reaction your having my posting rights restored based on his and Jordy's 
previous improper termination of those posting rights for 1 year without 
proper review in the [email-masked] WG,   and in this email compliant to you 
I am asserting that they represented to me that this suspension was a 
permanent expulsion. Since that WG immediately started working on the same 
IP issues I was objecting to, they clearly and purposely eliminated my voice 
and feedback from those policy control issues in the operations of the 
IETF...

It (the latest action I assert) constitutes more of Mr. Alverstrands ongoing 
personal attack on my posting commentary disagreeing with his violation of 
what is required under US law to make proper electronic transactions and 
which are properly supported in the US NOW by the Lorraine vs. Markel ruling 
which applies to the IETF too.  Those issues being what I refer to as "the 
sloppy and ineffective IP transfer processes and agreement's" which 
essentially create criminals from all IETF member's by forcing them to also 
assert through Electronic Medium that they actually hold legal power of 
attorney for their sponsor's interests and can properly represent them 
before the IETF.

Lorrain vs. Markel clearly spells out how email based systems must be 
operated and this also pertains to the IETF's list operators as well. The 
costs of being an IETF sponsoring entity just went up, since they must also 
protect that IP in those mailing lists properly and support its availability 
for the full retention period as well.. Welcome to reality.

http://www.mdd.uscourts.gov/Opinions152/Opinions/Lorraine%20v.%20Markel%20-%20ESIADMISSIBILITY%20OPINION.pdf

Responses inline below...

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Harald Alvestrand" <[email-masked]>
To: "TS Glassey" <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 8:40 AM
Subject: Glassey's suspension from the IPR WG mailing list (Re: IPR agenda 
for Vancouver)

> Changing the subject line, since this has nothing to do with the agenda

Fact's as manufactured by you Harald to support your actions?

> Mr. Glassey has been frequently warned against off-topic postings.

Which gives you the right as the WG Chair to arbitralliy make decisions 
about who can and cannot participte? I dont think so.

> The given reason was "multiple off-topic postings".

The posting made you suspended me for was NOT off topic but was labeled as 
such and there was only one of them that I know of so there were no multiple 
posts. There were posts on topic disagreeing with you.

---

From: "TS Glassey" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:20:46 -0800

Endre - I am sorry I offended your "delicate sensibilities" I apologize, but
since there are those in the IESG and IETF with much more acerbic mouths
than mine, this document's the clique type operating structure which
prevents people who disagree with the direction the Status Quo wants to move
are handled.

Is what you are objecting to my wholesale objection to the conversion of the
IETF to a place where submitting any IP to it mechanically makes that IP
impossible to protect???  If that makes me as you put it "A Jerk" then we
need to resolve that between at a higher level I think.

Todd Glassey

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Walls, Endre" <[email-masked]>
To: "TS Glassey" <[email-masked]>; "Harald Alvestrand"
<[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 8:34 AM
Subject: RE: IPR agenda for Vancouver

Todd,

Regards,

Endre Walls

-----Original Message-----
From: TS Glassey [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 11:13 AM
To: Harald Alvestrand; [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: IPR agenda for Vancouver

Chair and IESG,

Since the IETF has already apologized through Mr. Housley for the
mistake
that Mr. Alverstrand promulgated and benefitted from for a calendar
year, I
want the suspension lifted and Mr Alverstrand disciplined for this
action.

Have a nice day,
Todd Glassey

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Harald Alvestrand" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 2:16 AM
Subject: IPR agenda for Vancouver

one

This electronic message transmission contains information from the Company
that may be proprietary, confidential and/or privileged.
The information is intended only for the use of the individual(s) or entity
named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, be
aware that any disclosure, copying or distribution or use of the contents of
this information is prohibited.  If you have received
this electronic transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately
by replying to the address listed in the "From:" field.

---

From: "Walls, Endre" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:45:12 -0500

I suppose your constant use of sharp tongue is your way of proving
intelligence online.

I have nothing personal against you. But for some odd reason every other
person on this list can find a way to communicate their disagreements
with each other without the need for personal attack or dismissive tone.
You seem to have it out for certain people, and instead of just saying
what you have to say you try your best to spit as much verbal venom as
possible.

I don't think your approach helps us get our jobs done. We're all
involved for the love of our profession and the love of the technology.
You need to find a better way to communicate, period. 

I'm sure there are others who are much more abrasive, but you're the
person we're talking about here - and this isn't Rome.

Endre Walls

-----Original Message-----
From: TS Glassey [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 5:21 PM
To: Walls, Endre; Harald Alvestrand; [email-masked]; [email-masked];
[email-masked]

Endre - I am sorry I offended your "delicate sensibilities" I apologize,
but
since there are those in the IESG and IETF with much more acerbic mouths
than mine, this document's the clique type operating structure which
prevents people who disagree with the direction the Status Quo wants to
move
are handled.

Is what you are objecting to my wholesale objection to the conversion of
the
IETF to a place where submitting any IP to it mechanically makes that IP
impossible to protect???  If that makes me as you put it "A Jerk" then
we
need to resolve that between at a higher level I think.

Todd Glassey

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Walls, Endre" <[email-masked]>
To: "TS Glassey" <[email-masked]>; "Harald Alvestrand"
<[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>;
<[email-masked]>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 8:34 AM
Subject: RE: IPR agenda for Vancouver

Todd,

Regards,

Endre Walls

-----Original Message-----
From: TS Glassey [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 11:13 AM
To: Harald Alvestrand; [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: IPR agenda for Vancouver

Chair and IESG,

Have a nice day,
Todd Glassey

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Harald Alvestrand" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 2:16 AM
Subject: IPR agenda for Vancouver

one

This electronic message transmission contains information from the
Company
that may be proprietary, confidential and/or privileged.
The information is intended only for the use of the individual(s) or
entity
named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, be
aware that any disclosure, copying or distribution or use of the
contents of
this information is prohibited.  If you have received
this electronic transmission in error, please notify the sender
immediately
by replying to the address listed in the "From:" field.

---

From: "TS Glassey" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:08:19 -0800

Endre - this isn't furthering the WG's operations so if you want to continue 
can we do it off the list?

Todd
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Walls, Endre" <[email-masked]>
To: "TS Glassey" <[email-masked]>; "Harald Alvestrand" 
<[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 2:45 PM
Subject: RE: IPR agenda for Vancouver

Endre Walls

-----Original Message-----
From: TS Glassey [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 5:21 PM
To: Walls, Endre; Harald Alvestrand; [email-masked]; [email-masked];
[email-masked]

Todd Glassey

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Walls, Endre" <[email-masked]>
To: "TS Glassey" <[email-masked]>; "Harald Alvestrand"

Todd,

Regards,

Endre Walls

-----Original Message-----
From: TS Glassey [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 11:13 AM
To: Harald Alvestrand; [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: IPR agenda for Vancouver

Chair and IESG,

Have a nice day,
Todd Glassey

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Harald Alvestrand" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 2:16 AM
Subject: IPR agenda for Vancouver

one