Subject: [irtf-discuss] draft minutes from Quebec

From: Lars Eggert <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 10:26:37 +0300

Hi,

attached are the draft minutes from Quebec. Thank you, Mat Ford, for taking them.

Please review them and submit corrections - esp. if you spoke at the microphone. (There are a number of unidentified speakers in the minutes.)

Thanks,
Lars

IRTF Open Meeting
Quebec City, Canada
Wednesday, July 27, 2011, 9:00 - 11:30
Room 202

--------------

State of the IRTF
	RG Chairs & Lars Eggert

Lars presented the IRTF status update - slides:
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/slides/IRTF-6.pdf

Feedback was solicited on how to arrange IRTF presentation to the
Technical Plenary vs. IRTF Open Meeting agenda.

Research Group reviews - slides as before:

ASRG
	- little activity, planning to meet in conjunction with MAAWG to
	  rectify this.

CFRG
	- helping IETF move towards crypto policy appropriate for modern
	  age
	- meeting with IAB this week
	- co-chair stepped down - looking for a new co-chair 
	- looking to stimulate more activity on validation and assurance

DTNRG
	- started out as interplanetary research group
	- DTNRG now a little closer to earth ;)
	- protocol has been used in space
	- Stephen Farrel has cool project using this in swedish military
	  applications

HIPRG
	- wrapping up their main charter item, will be discussing the
	  future of the group at their meeting tomorrow

ICCRG
	- incorporating transport layer topics from end-to-end RG that
	  closed

MobOpts
	- forum for discussing alternative mobility mechanisms, e.g.
	  multipath TCP
	- interested in trying to find a community around these
	  questions to make progress, otherwise will shut down 
	- will be touring academic conferences soliciting contributions

NMRG
	- has new chair
	- ran a poll on the mailing list to identify future topics for
	  research

P2PRG
	- rechartered about 2 years ago 
	- since then have published 2 RFCs 
	- p2p security, and alto techniques survey
	- traffic localization is current focus

RRG
	- have been incredibly busy for last few years 
	- work finished, now in recovery period 
	- looking for new topics 
	- if there is sufficient energy to continue will recharter, 
	  otherwise close

SAMRG	(not presented)

TMRG
	- moving this work back into ICCRG

VNRG 
	- Martin Stiemerling presenting 
	- RG founded 18 months ago 
	- working on diverse field of virtual networks 
	- seeking to define their terms for virtual networks 
	- diverse set of people 
	- hard to get them to do work between meetings 
	- have good discussions during meetings 
	- trying to get people back on board, stimulate discussions between
	  meetings 
	- still a lot of talking past each other 
	- will be meeting on Friday morning this week

---------------

Applied Networking Research Prize (ANRP) Awards - see
http://www.irtf.org/anrp for details

	*** Mattia Rossi *** for research into reducing BGP traffic:

	A Technique for Reducing BGP Update Announcements through Path
	Exploration Damping. Geoff Huston, Mattia Rossi and Grenville
	Armitage. IEEE Journal on Selected Areas in Communications
	(JSAC), Vol. 28, No. 8, pp. 1271-1286, October 2010.

	Abstract: Path Exploration Damping is intended as a
	replacement for MRAI and RFD, the two main mechanisms used in
	BGP that aim at a reduction of BGP update churn. This talk
	explains the motivation behind PED, outlines the algorithm and
	provides insight into experimental results.

Questions:

Mat Ford - Why set different PEDI per peer? or per prefix?
What indicators can an operator use to tune these parameters?

Mattia - this is the next focus of our research, we're studying per
prefix behavior to understand better what could be useful in this
regard and to develop heuristics.

? - Any difference between iBGP and eBGP?

Mattia - Yes, we're only looking at eBGP. There is no timer for iBGP.
People not always happy about this - more updates in iBGP then eBGP.
Maybe in future we will recommend a lower default if other defaults
are reduced, could become automatic.

Georgios Karagiannis - interested in experiments and statistical
accuracy. mentioned that relative times are quicker, but have you used
multiple rounds?

Mattia - this is exactly why we used the accelerator - to replay the
data set multiple times - the results I showed you are the averages.

GK - What about confidence intervals?

Mattia - I think these are documented in the paper.

-----------

	*** Beichuan Zhang *** for research into "green" traffic
	engineering: GreenTE: Power-Aware Traffic Engineering. Mingui
	Zhang, Cheng Yi, Bin Liu and Beichuan Zhang. Proc. IEEE
	International Conference on Network Protocols (ICNP), pp.
	21-30, October 2010.

	Abstract: Given the high path redundancy and low link
	utilization in today's large networks, one may route traffic
	using fewer number of links so that other links can go sleep
	to conserve energy. In this work we design a traffic
	engineering mechanism that maximizes the number of links to
	sleep under certain performance constraints such as link
	utilization and packet delay. Using network topologies and
	traffic data from several wide-area networks, our evaluation
	demonstrates that GreenTE is both feasible and beneficial.

Questions:

Dirk Kutscher - aware of approaches for wireless networks - slightly
different problem - there the observation is that you save the most
power not by turning base station, wireless i/f off, but turning whole
site off, e.g. air conditioning etc. = real problem is when to switch
on again.

Beichuan - We didn't consider that in this work - these are large routers,
we're assuming they stay on - with better support for whole platform
sleep modes we could explore this

Dave Crocker - this is interesting work - you're taking a whole system
view, focussing on line cards - what are total savings relative to
total consumption?

Beichuan - line cards consumption is 40-50% of total power consumption, also
have data that says 40-70% - so significant amount of total power
consumption could be saved - we only look at line cards, but i imagine
there may be indirect benefits, e.g fans could be turned off once
number of line-cards drops below some threshold

? - server has perfect knowledge of traffic matrix?

Beichuan - traffic matrix is collected from ingress routers - then we
estimate traffic matrix for next interval

? - so you predict for the future?

Beichuan - yes

? - what if there is a discrepancy between reality and prediction?

Beichuan - power savings may not be optimal, but this doesn't violate
constraints

? - slide 22 - power saving potential drops rapidly, why?

Beichuan - lack of flexibility in topology means there are inflection points
where lots of links have to be enabled simultaneously

Georgios Karagiannis - transition from sleep to active mode requires a
power surge - did you include this?

BZ - we didn't do this comparison - when we turn off a card we let it
be off for a long period of time - not opportunistic off/on - can
amortize this power over time by making power off intervals long, but
the point is valid.

Lars Eggert - it happened that both prize winning papers were in the
routing area, that is coincidence, there are no such restrictions an
ANRP nominations

Mat Ford - deadline for next call is aug 28th

Lars - email will go out soon with details of how to nominate etc.,
please nominate!

----------------

Presentation & discussion of proposals for new IRTF research groups

	Network Complexity Michael Behringer
	http://networkcomplexity.org/

This would be extremely valuable for security analysis

Bob Briscoe - there are limits to how complete an analysis can be
arrived at

Michael - yes

----------------

	Information-Centric Networking Dirk Kutscher & Borje Ohlman
	http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/irtf/trac/wiki/icnrg

 - no questions

-----------------

	Learning-Capable Communication Networks Dimitri Papadimitriou
	https://sites.google.com/site/lccngroup/

Marcelo Bagnulo - we have routing protocols - they self-heal already -
so can you provide a more detailed example to motivate this?

Dmitri - please come this afternoon to our meeting, where we will show
that instead of adaptive routing we have self-adaptive routing

Lars - why not do this in existing NMRG?

Dmitri - the role and scope of self-management as indicated on slide 5
- bounds are enforced on a global configuration, based on policies
determined by operator's high and low level objectives.

Lars - I'm wondering if the broader nm community subscribes to your
compartmentalization of the activities here.

Dmitiri - had this discussion in the last meeting - what is the value
of enabling this system with a learning component is first question -
there are advantages in allowing systems …

Lars - I understand that you don't think it fits in NRMG - does NRMG
agree with that?

? - not really - for several years we have had workshop on flow-based
techniques in NMRG - typically these kind of things are already
addressed in the group

Lars - can we have this discussion in the NRMG is the question? let's
continue this at the meeting this afternoon.

-----------

	Energy Efficient Communication Rolf Winter & Juergen Quittek

No further questions.

Meeting adjourned.

-----------

---

From: JinHyeock Choi <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 12:30:13 +0900

Hi

I am the unidentified speaker
who asked a few questions to Prof. Beichuan at ANRP presentation.

Best regards

JinHyeock Choi