Subject: Re: re-chartering L2TP

From: Vernon Schryver <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 12:51:32 -0700 (MST)

> From: Danny McPherson <[email-masked]>

> ...
> > If modifications to the charter of the L2TP working group were minor
> > or required only to complete its work, they would be reasonable and
> > in my personal view not worth arguing or even talking about.  However,
> > making the working group a permanent fixture, or more accurately, a
> > permanently available rubber stamp for proprietary technically bad
> > ideas are something else.
>
> Where was this proposed?

Until the recent proposal of a brand new Ethernet/IP tunneling protocol,
I had assumed that changes to the charter were nominal.  Judging from
the reception of latest bad idea, my assumption was wrong, and so
I'd like to see exactly what the proposed charter changes are.

Does the new charter justify considering this Ethernet/IP tunneling protocol?
I've been trying to get to the archive at http://www.ipsec.org/email/l2tp/ 
for some time, but it won't answer me.

> ...
> > Where are the words of the new charter, since it is now only proposed
> > and no longer a fait accompli?
>
> Perhaps I'm confused, but how does sending an email to the 
> WG mailing list with the words ***Potential new charter***
> in the subject line constitute this 'stealth' behavior you're 
> alluding to.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that I'm wrong and that there
was nothing stealthy about the charter change.

So let's look at the new charter and not just the tunneling protocols
that it apparently justifies.

> If your intent is to let it be know that you don't think
> the work (i.e., tunneling of PDU types other than PPP via L2TP)
> belongs in L2TP, I think you've succeeded in voicing YOUR
> opinion. 

Do you think that the rest of the IETF or even just the PPP WG knows about
the plans to have L2TP own all tunneling protocols or that they approve?
I don't.

It's past time for the L2TP group to finish.  This latest Ethernet/IP
tunneling issue is a classic example of why permanent WG's are dangerous.
It is also why there is so much politicing on charters in all standards
committees.  The IEEE 100BASE-T vs. 100VG-AnyLAN issue on which reputations
were wrecked that I mentioned before involved the IEEE equivalent of WG
charters.  That's not to say that things as bad are involved here but to
point out that charters, PAR's, agendas and similar are where the most
dangerous and often most indefensible political stuff happens.

Vernon Schryver    [email-masked]

---

From: James Carlson <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 15:23:56 -0500 (EST)

> for some time, but it won't answer me.

The archives are at http://www.l2tp.net/.

The archive location changed sometime around November 1999, but was
not updated in the IETF documents.  (Yes, I was also caught off guard
by this change.)

	http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/l2tpext-charter.html

-- 
James Carlson, Internet Engineering       <[email-masked]>
SUN Microsystems / 1 Network Drive         71.234W   Vox +1 781 442 2084
MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757   42.497N   Fax +1 781 442 1677
Second Edition now available - http://people.ne.mediaone.net/carlson/ppp

---

From: "W. Mark Townsley" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 16:16:37 -0500

I had to recruit a new volunteer to host the list after Y2K killed the
archival code running on the ipsec.org server. The new server went
online July 27, 2000. I noticed that the archive on l2tp.net seems to be
missing a couple of emails from that day. I will work with the sysadmin
to see that they are restored.

The forwarding links from ipsec.org seem to be broken now. I have asked
the secretary to update the page. Apologies for not taking care of this
detail sooner.

- Mark

---

From: "Frederick N. Chase" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 16:37:41 -0500

> to see that they are restored.
.
.
.
.

Hope this helps to get in touch with him:

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