Subject: [lemonade] Question on 'Sent Items' deposit

From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:28:05 +0300

Hi all,
It a is a usual practice to place a copy of a sent email (new, replied, forwarded) to a special store typically called "Sent items"/"Sent mail"
I understand that this is not done automatically - or perhaps I missed some draft(?) - and it is the client's responsibility to create and desposit the copy. I recon this is not a problem for a fixed terminal. However, when I send something from a mobile terminal, I would not want to upload it twice (once to SUBMIT server and again to the IMAP server).
Does LEMONADE provide a mechanism to make sure that we do not need to upload an email twice?
If yes, which draft describes it, if not, I think it should be added.
Thank You.

Best regards: Zoltán Ördögh
E-mail: zoltan.ordogh at nokia.com
Phone: +358 50 386 0566

_______________________________________________
lemonade mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade

---

From: Alexey Melnikov <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:33:51 +0100

> Hi all,
Hi Zoltan,

> It a is a usual practice to place a copy of a sent email (new, 
> replied, forwarded) to a special store typically called "Sent 
> items"/"Sent mail"
>
> I understand that this is not done automatically - or perhaps I missed 
> some draft(?) - and it is the client's responsibility to create and 
> desposit the copy. I recon this is not a problem for a fixed terminal. 
> However, when I send something from a mobile terminal, I would not 
> want to upload it twice (once to SUBMIT server and again to the IMAP 
> server).
>
The client uses IMAP CATENATE extension (RFC 4469) to construct a 
complete message in the "Sent mail" mailbox, then the client generates a 
signed URL pointing to the constructed message using IMAP URLAUTH 
extension (RFC 4467) and finally the client submits the message using 
SMTP BURL extension (RFC 4468). This is described in the Lemonade 
Profile document (draft-ietf-lemonade-profile-07.txt, that would become 
an RFC really soon now).

So the client will create a message to be submitted directly in the 
"Sent mail" mailbox, so it wouldn't have to upload the same message 
twice to the Submit server and to the IMAP server.

> If yes, which draft describes it, if not, I think it should be added.
*Alexey

*

---

From: Dave Cridland <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 12:41:23 +0100

> replied, forwarded) to a special store typically called "Sent 

I tend to put them in INBOX, in fact, but the practise of a specific 
mailbox for copies of sent messages is common.

> I understand that this is not done automatically - or perhaps I 
> missed some draft(?) - and it is the client's responsibility to 
> create and desposit the copy. I recon this is not a problem for a 
> fixed terminal. However, when I send something from a mobile 
> terminal, I would not want to upload it twice (once to SUBMIT 
> server and again to the IMAP server).

Yes, and we do - you upload the copy (via APPEND, possibly using 
CATENATE to assemble), and then send by using a single BURL/URLAUTH 
pair.

There's an alternate method, which uses POSTADDRESS, which isn't 
currently part of Lemonade. (Perhaps it should be?)

This is covered in section 2.7 of Profile Bis (and probably of 
Profile, too). I might alter the title if it makes this easier to 
find.

Incidentally, usage of these mechanisms can be sensible over DSL 
links, since usage-based billing is increasingly common.

Dave.
-- 
Dave Cridland - mailto:[email-masked] - xmpp:[email-masked]
  - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/
  - http://dave.cridland.net/
Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade

---

From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 14:45:49 +0300

So this guy is saying what we discussed yesterday. When sending an email
you put it to the sent items and the Submmit the URL with BURL. We have
to ask our engineers about this kind of behavior.

Cat

>-----Original Message-----
>From: ext Dave Cridland [mailto:[email-masked]] 
>Sent: 02 June, 2006 14:41
>To: Ordogh Zoltan (Nokia-TP-MSW/Tampere)
>Cc: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service 
>enivronments
>Subject: Re: [lemonade] Question on 'Sent Items' deposit
>
>I tend to put them in INBOX, in fact, but the practise of a 
>specific mailbox for copies of sent messages is common.
>
>

---

From: "Robert A. Rosenberg" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 00:26:52 -0400

At 10:28 +0300 on 06/02/2006, <[email-masked]> wrote about 
[lemonade] Question on 'Sent Items' deposit:

>terminal, I would not want to upload it twice (once to SUBMIT server 
>and again to the IMAP server).
>

One solution to this problem is to implement an IMAP equivalent of 
the POP3 "XTND XMIT" extension. This POP3 capability, if you are not 
familiar with it, allows the POP Server to act as a MSA (Mail 
Submission Agent) via the POP Session followed by handing off the 
message to the local SMTP Server.

Since it has the message, the IMAP Server can save it to the "Sent 
items"/"Sent mail" folder after relaying it to the SMTP Server.

---

From: Mark Crispin <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 09:09:20 -0700 (PDT)

On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, Robert A. Rosenberg wrote:
> One solution to this problem is to implement an IMAP equivalent of the POP3 
> "XTND XMIT" extension. This POP3 capability, if you are not familiar with it, 
> allows the POP Server to act as a MSA (Mail Submission Agent) via the POP 
> Session followed by handing off the message to the local SMTP Server.

Simple answer: No.  No.  1000 times, NO!!

This topic is dead, buried, and the corpse thoroughly rotted.  There are 
list archives, read them.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

---

From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:17:16 +0300

Hi Dave,
thank You.

Yes, I certainly would like to have it in the profile.
>From "The FCC problem" I did not quite get the idea - I am not familiar with the term.
I would prefer describing it more detail in bis.

So, You are saying it can be done.
Now, is the UID the same in all messages - to guarantee that the client does not download the newly deposited message from the "Sent items" box?

Could You elaborate this statement:
"Incidentally, usage of these mechanisms can be sensible over DSL links, since usage-based billing is increasingly common."
I do not understand how can it be sensible when the email is not uploaded again.

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Dave Cridland [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: 02 June, 2006 14:41
To: Ordogh Zoltan (Nokia-TP-MSW/Tampere)
Cc: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Question on 'Sent Items' deposit

> replied, forwarded) to a special store typically called "Sent 

I tend to put them in INBOX, in fact, but the practise of a specific mailbox for copies of sent messages is common.

Dave.

---

From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:18:45 +0300

This is exactly the reason  why we need to describe it in more detail in bis :-)

Thank You Robert and Mark anyway. 

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Mark Crispin [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: 03 June, 2006 19:09
To: Robert A. Rosenberg
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Question on 'Sent Items' deposit

On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, Robert A. Rosenberg wrote:
> One solution to this problem is to implement an IMAP equivalent of the 
> POP3 "XTND XMIT" extension. This POP3 capability, if you are not 
> Submission Agent) via the POP Session followed by handing off the message to the local SMTP Server.

This topic is dead, buried, and the corpse thoroughly rotted.  There are list archives, read them.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc

---

From: Alexey Melnikov <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:40:29 +0100

Dave Cridland wrote:

> CATENATE to assemble), and then send by using a single BURL/URLAUTH pair.
>
> Profile, too).

Yes, this is the same section in Profile.
Step by step instructions are specified in Section 2.4.1 of Profile.

> I might alter the title if it makes this easier to find.

I am wondering if Profile bis should have a section with several simple 
examples, that would help to understand the more detailed explanation?

---

From: Alexey Melnikov <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 14:03:11 +0100

>I would prefer describing it more detail in bis.
FCC is "file carbon copy", a term used in several Mail User Agents to 
describe saving a copy of a sent message into a mailbox (which is 
usually a file).
Somebody who has been around for longer might be better in explaining this.

>Now, is the UID the same in all messages
>
No, IMAP server will create a separate UID (unique identifier) for each 
message.

>- to guarantee that the client does not download the newly deposited message from the "Sent items" box?
>  
>
UIDPLUS extension addresses this issue. When the client 
uploads/constructs a message with APPEND, the server returns the 
APPENDUID response code, which tells the client UID of the created 
message. This is exactly to avoid the need for the client to download 
the message it just uploaded.
This is shown in the example in section 2.4.1.

>I do not understand how can it be sensible when the email is not uploaded again.
I think Dave just said that "forward without download" is useful for 
both people with mobile devices and DSL users.

---

From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:30:20 -0700

At 2:03 PM +0100 6/5/06, Alexey Melnikov wrote:

>  FCC is "file carbon copy", a term used in several Mail User Agents 
> to describe saving a copy of a sent message into a mailbox (which 
> is usually a file).

I'll take a shot: Long, long ago, in the dim, dark ages before we all 
had computers on our desks (much less in our pockets), people who 
worked in offices used a form of written communication called a 
"memo".  It was often used for one-to-one or one-to-many or even 
few-to-many communication within a company (more often, actual 
letters were used to communicate outside the company).  The memo 
typically was typed onto a form that was divided into a heading and 
the body.  The heading listed the names of the recipients and the 
author(s), as well as a subject.  The recipients were subdivided into 
those the memo was being sent to, and others who were being sent a 
copy for their information.  Usually the implication was that those 
it was being sent to were expected to take some sort of action, while 
those only receiving a copy were merely being informed as a courtesy. 
(But there were many political games that were played regarding just 
whose name appeared and where.).

This was in the days before routine photocopy machines, so the manner 
in which copies were produced was interesting: multiple sheets of 
paper were stacked, interleaved with sheets of something called 
'carbon paper'.  This 'carbon paper' was an extremely thin sheet of 
paper coated on one side with carbon.  If it was in between two 
sheets of paper, then anything written or typed on the top sheet 
would be also appear on the second sheet, by virtue of the force of 
the writing or typing pressing the carbon onto the second sheet. 
(Multiple sets of carbon paper and plain paper could be used 
together, to produce the desired number of copies.  However, because 
the physical pressure of the typing (or writing) was needed to 
produce each copy, and needed to be transferred through each 
preceding copy, there were limits to how many copies could be 
produced.  Each successive copy was fainter than the one before.)

Because of the technology used, those being sent a copy were referred 
to as "carbon copy recipients" or "cc" recipients.

When email was developed it naturally used the memo as a model. 
Hence we still use the term "cc".  (Those being sent a copy without 
the knowledge of the others are referred to as "blind carbon copy" 
recipients or "bcc".)

>  No, IMAP server will create a separate UID (unique identifier) for 
> each message.
>
>>  - to guarantee that the client does not download the newly 
>> deposited message from the "Sent items" box?
>>
> message. This is exactly to avoid the need for the client to 
> download the message it just uploaded.

Note that the client will first create the message using APPEND 
(perhaps with CATENATE to help with assembly).  It then receives the 
UID via APPENDUID, and then uses this UID to have a URLAUTH 
constructed.  It then uses the URLAUTH to send the message via BURL. 
The key here to answering your question is that the client of 
necessity knows the UID of the appended message.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
Wealth is not only money.
Wealth can be happiness in your sweetheart or your honey.
  --(Fortune cookie)

---

From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 17:55:45 -0700

At 12:30 PM -0700 6/9/06, I wrote:

>   Long, long ago, in the dim, dark ages before we all had computers 
> on our desks (much less in our pockets), people who worked in 
> offices used a form of written communication called a "memo".

By the way, one can learn all about this sort of ancient ritual from 
watching old movies and TV shows.  It seems that in those days, 
almost anyone above the clerk level had his or her (but mostly his) 
own office that included a bar.  When visitors dropped in to discuss 
business, drinks were consumed.  In addition to an office complete 
with bar, a secretary was provided for his (or her) exclusive use. 
The secretary typed up letters and memos and filed them.  Even though 
it seemed to take much longer, the person wishing to send a memo 
never typed it himself (or herself) but instead always summoned the 
secretary, composed it off the cuff aloud, then waited for the 
secretary to type it up.  There were then rounds of edits.  Seems 
very time-consuming to us!
-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
In the beginning was the word...and it was the wrong length.
                 --Bob Barton (Burroughs computer architect)

---

From: "Robert A. Rosenberg" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:40:07 -0400

At 12:30 -0700 on 06/09/2006, Randall Gellens wrote about Re: 

>the knowledge of the others are referred to as "blind carbon copy" 

In Email usage, the first C in Cc and Bcc represents Courtesy not the 
old Carbon (although the Carbon is often used for historical/homage 
purposes).

To add to the historical description of memos in the prior message, I 
will add that when Photocopies came into use, the names in the Cc 
were often replaced with a group description of why they were getting 
a copy (ie: Department A, Department B, etc.) with a separate list of 
Who was in that Group and thus would get a copy. For Email this 
became the Group Nickname/Persona which when listed would either 
expand into a list of the members of that Group or would be a mailing 
address that would (via a .forward list) echo the incoming message to 
the relevant email addresses.

---

From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 09:32:00 +0300

Yes, title change and additional info in bis would be great.
Thank You. 

Best regards: Zoltán Ördögh
E-mail: zoltan dot ordogh at nokia dot com
Phone: +358 50 386 0566

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Alexey Melnikov [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: 05 June, 2006 15:40
To: Dave Cridland
Cc: Ordogh Zoltan (Nokia-TP-MSW/Tampere); [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Question on 'Sent Items' deposit

> I might alter the title if it makes this easier to find.

I am wondering if Profile bis should have a section with several simple examples, that would help to understand the more detailed explanation?