Subject: Re: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)"

From: "Doug Ewell" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 10:39:43 -0800

Incidentally, this same question applies to cases like the following:

Type: language
Subtag: ain
Description: Ainu (Japan)
Description: Ainu
Added: 2005-10-16

where:

"Ainu" is the name used in ISO 639-2

"Ainu (Japan)" is the name used in ISO 639-3, because there is also an 
"Ainu (China)" that wasn't coded in 639-2

Does it make sense to include both descriptions?  Doing so might confuse 
people looking for the Chinese Ainu, who find "Ainu = ain" (in a user 
interface, not looking directly at the LSR) and don't realize there is 
also a Japanese Ainu and they've hit it by mistake.  Excluding "Ainu 
(Japan)" would guarantee that this would happen.  But excluding plain 
"Ainu" would once again be unacceptable to people who want all ISO 639-1 
and -2 names (except inversions, now) retained in the LSR.  Which is the 
least problematic course of action?

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

---

From: "Mark Davis" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:15:51 -0800

I have less of a problem with these, because the parentheticals with
geographical names would probably be fairly clear to most people. And
because the the 639-2 variant is the most common, I think either of the
following would work.
...
Ainu
Ainu (China)
...

or

...
Ainu (Japan)
Ainu (China)
...

Peter, since Ainu is not a macrolanguage, I assume that there is no
relationship between aib and ain; that it is just an accident that they have
the same English name? (Is the same true for the other name collisions where
one of them was in 639-2 and yet they are not under a macrolanguage? Or are
those slips through the cracks?)

BTW, here is a list of all the names that are only distinguished by
parentheticals in http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/iso-639-3_20071018.tab (don't
worry about the UTF-8 munging -- I just forgot to tell Excel that it was
UTF-8). At the end I list the unique parentheticals.

    aib
I L Ainu  Ainu (China) 2  ain
I L Ainu  Ainu (Japan) 2  aja
I L Aja  Aja (Sudan) 2  ajg
I L Aja  Aja (Benin) 2  amm
I L Ama  Ama (Papua New Guinea) 2  nyi
I L Ama  Ama (Sudan) 2  rwm
I L Amba  Amba (Uganda) 2  utp
I L Amba  Amba (Solomon Islands) 2  asa
I L Asu  Asu (Tanzania) 2  aum
I L Asu  Asu (Nigeria) 2  ayq
I L Ayi  Ayi (Papua New Guinea) 2  ayx
I L Ayi  Ayi (China) 2  bau
I L Bada  Bada (Nigeria) 2  bhz
I L Bada  Bada (Indonesia) 2  bdh
I L Baka  Baka (Sudan) 2  bkc
I L Baka  Baka (Cameroon) 2  bcn
I L Bali  Bali (Nigeria) 2  bcp
I L Bali  Bali (Democratic Republic of Congo) 2  bas
I L Basa  Basa (Cameroon) 2  bzw
I L Basa  Basa (Nigeria) 2  btc
I L Bati  Bati (Cameroon) 2  bvt
I L Bati  Bati (Indonesia) 2  bey
I L Beli  Beli (Papua New Guinea) 2  blm
I L Beli  Beli (Sudan) 2  bem
I L Bemba  Bemba (Zambia) 2  bmy
I L Bemba  Bemba (Democratic Republic of Congo) 2  bez
I L Bena  Bena (Tanzania) 2  yun
I L Bena  Bena (Nigeria) 2  btb
I L Beti  Beti (Cameroon) 2  eot
I L Beti  Beti (CÃ´te d'Ivoire) 2  bmn
I E Bina  Bina (Papua New Guinea) 2  byj
I L Bina  Bina (Nigeria) 2  bgl
I L Bo  Bo (Laos) 2  bpw
I L Bo  Bo (Papua New Guinea) 2  bzl
I L Boano  Boano (Sulawesi) 2  bzn
I L Boano  Boano (Maluku) 2  boy
I L Bodo  Bodo (Central African Republic) 2  brx
I L Bodo  Bodo (India) 2  bkp
I L Boko  Boko (Democratic Republic of Congo) 2  bqc
I L Boko  Boko (Benin) 2  bwu
I L Buli  Buli (Ghana) 2  bzq
I L Buli  Buli (Indonesia) 2  bjl
I L Bulu  Bulu (Papua New Guinea) 2  bum
I L Bulu  Bulu (Cameroon) 2  bqw
I L Buru  Buru (Nigeria) 2  mhs
I L Buru  Buru (Indonesia) 2  ddn
I L Dendi  Dendi (Benin) 2  deq
I L Dendi  Dendi (Central African Republic) 2  kbv
I L Dera  Dera (Indonesia) 2  kna
I L Dera  Dera (Nigeria) 2  dha
I L Dhanwar  Dhanwar (India) 2  dhw
I L Dhanwar  Dhanwar (Nepal) 2  dgo
I L Dogri  Dogri (individual language) 2  doi
M L Dogri  Dogri (macrolanguage) 2  env
I L Enwan  Enwan (Edu State) 2  enw
I L Enwan  Enwan (Akwa Ibom State) 2  etn
I L Eton  Eton (Vanuatu) 2  eto
I L Eton  Eton (Cameroon) 2  fak
I L Fang  Fang (Cameroon) 2  fan
I L Fang  Fang (Equatorial Guinea) 2  gba
M L Gbaya  Gbaya (Central African Republic) 2  krs
I L Gbaya  Gbaya (Sudan) 2  gim
I L Gimi  Gimi (Eastern Highlands) 2  gip
I L Gimi  Gimi (West New Britain) 2  gqn
I E Guana  Guana (Brazil) 2  gva
I L Guana  Guana (Paraguay) 2  glu
I L Gula  Gula (Chad) 2  kcm
I L Gula  Gula (Central African Republic) 2  isu
I L Isu  Isu (Menchum Division) 2  szv
I L Isu  Isu (Fako Division) 2  anq
I L Jarawa  Jarawa (India) 2  jar
I L Jarawa  Jarawa (Nigeria) 2  jim
I L Jimi  Jimi (Cameroon) 2  jmi
I L Jimi  Jimi (Nigeria) 2  kam
I L Kamba  Kamba (Kenya) 2  xba
I E Kamba  Kamba (Brazil) 2  kcu
I L Kami  Kami (Tanzania) 2  kmi
I L Kami  Kami (Nigeria) 2  kty
I L Kango  Kango (Bas-UÃ(c)lÃ(c) District) 2  kzy
I L Kango  Kango (Tshopo District) 2  kah
I L Kara  Kara (Central African Republic) 4  leu
I L Kara  Kara (Papua New Guinea) 4  reg
I L Kara  Kara (Tanzania) 4  zra
I E Kara  Kara (Korea) 4  kbn
I L Kare  Kare (Central African Republic) 2  kmf
I L Kare  Kare (Papua New Guinea) 2  arr
I L Karo  Karo (Brazil) 2  kxh
I L Karo  Karo (Ethiopia) 2  kcl
I L Kela  Kela (Papua New Guinea) 2  kel
I L Kela  Kela (Democratic Republic of Congo) 2  khy
I L Kele  Kele (Democratic Republic of Congo) 2  sbc
I L Kele  Kele (Papua New Guinea) 2  ktu
I L Kituba  Kituba (Democratic Republic of Congo) 2  mkw
I L Kituba  Kituba (Congo) 2  biw
I L Kol  Kol (Cameroon) 2  kol
I L Kol  Kol (Papua New Guinea) 2  bkm
I L Kom  Kom (Cameroon) 2  kmm
I L Kom  Kom (India) 2  kmw
I L Komo  Komo (Democratic Republic of Congo) 2  xom
I L Komo  Komo (Sudan) 2  knn
I L Konkani  Konkani (individual language) 2  kok
M L Konkani  Konkani (macrolanguage) 2  klk
I L Kono  Kono (Nigeria) 3  kno
I L Kono  Kono (Sierra Leone) 3  knu
I L Kono  Kono (Guinea) 3  kfo
I L Koro  Koro (CÃ´te d'Ivoire) 3  krf
I L Koro  Koro (Vanuatu) 3  kxr
I L Koro  Koro (Papua New Guinea) 3  kfe
I L Kota  Kota (India) 2  koq
I L Kota  Kota (Gabon) 2  kvd
I L Kui  Kui (Indonesia) 2  kxu
I L Kui  Kui (India) 2  bbu
I L Kulung  Kulung (Nigeria) 2  kle
I L Kulung  Kulung (Nepal) 2  lha
I L Laha  Laha (Viet Nam) 2  lhh
I L Laha  Laha (Indonesia) 2  lak
I L Laka  Laka (Nigeria) 2  lap
I L Laka  Laka (Chad) 2  las
I L Lama  Lama (Togo) 2  lay
I L Lama  Lama (Myanmar) 2  laj
I L Lango  Lango (Uganda) 2  lno
I L Lango  Lango (Sudan) 2  lel
I L Lele  Lele (Democratic Republic of Congo) 4  llc
I L Lele  Lele (Guinea) 4  lle
I L Lele  Lele (Papua New Guinea) 4  lln
I L Lele  Lele (Chad) 4  leo
I L Leti  Leti (Cameroon) 2  lti
I L Leti  Leti (Indonesia) 2  loi
I L Loma  Loma (CÃ´te d'Ivoire) 2  lom
I L Loma  Loma (Liberia) 2  mjn
I L Ma  Ma (Papua New Guinea) 2  msj
I L Ma  Ma (Democratic Republic of Congo) 2  mde
I L Maba  Maba (Chad) 2  mqa
I L Maba  Maba (Indonesia) 2  mda
I L Mada  Mada (Nigeria) 2  mxu
I L Mada  Mada (Cameroon) 2  mti
I L Maiwa  Maiwa (Papua New Guinea) 2  wmm
I L Maiwa  Maiwa (Indonesia) 2  mkg
I L Mak  Mak (China) 2  pbl
I L Mak  Mak (Nigeria) 2  ped
I L Mala  Mala (Papua New Guinea) 2  ruy
I L Mala  Mala (Nigeria) 2  mly
I L Malay  Malay (individual language) 2  msa ms M L Malay  Malay
(macrolanguage) 2  mdc
I L Male  Male (Papua New Guinea) 2  mdy
I L Male  Male (Ethiopia) 2  mgs
I L Manda  Manda (Tanzania) 3  mha
I L Manda  Manda (India) 3  zma
I L Manda  Manda (Australia) 3  chm
M L Mari  Mari (Russia) 3  hob
I L Mari  Mari (Madang Province) 3  mbx
I L Mari  Mari (East Sepik Province) 3  mds
I L Maria  Maria (Papua New Guinea) 2  mrr
I L Maria  Maria (India) 2  mve
I L Marwari  Marwari (Pakistan) 2  rwr
I L Marwari  Marwari (India) 2  jms
I L Mashi  Mashi (Nigeria) 2  mho
I L Mashi  Mashi (Zambia) 2  mcw
I L Mawa  Mawa (Chad) 2  wma
I E Mawa  Mawa (Nigeria) 2  mpk
I L Mbara  Mbara (Chad) 2  mvl
I E Mbara  Mbara (Australia) 2  mbo
I L Mbo  Mbo (Cameroon) 2  zmw
I L Mbo  Mbo (Democratic Republic of Congo) 2  men
I L Mende  Mende (Sierra Leone) 2  sim
I L Mende  Mende (Papua New Guinea) 2  hna
I L Mina  Mina (Cameroon) 2  myi
I L Mina  Mina (India) 2  mow
I L Moi  Moi (Congo) 2  mxn
I L Moi  Moi (Indonesia) 2  mnh
I L Mono  Mono (Democratic Republic of Congo) 4  mnr
I L Mono  Mono (USA) 4  mru
I L Mono  Mono (Cameroon) 4  mte
I L Mono  Mono (Solomon Islands) 4  mhz
I L Mor  Mor (Mor Islands) 2  moq
I L Mor  Mor (Bomberai Peninsula) 2  mjh
I L Mwera  Mwera (Nyasa) 2  mwe
I L Mwera  Mwera (Chimwera) 2  naq
I L Nama  Nama (Namibia) 2  nmx
I L Nama  Nama (Papua New Guinea) 2  ngd
I L Ngando  Ngando (Central African Republic) 2  nxd
I L Ngando  Ngando (Democratic Republic of Congo) 2  ngc
I L Ngombe  Ngombe (Democratic Republic of Congo) 2  nmj
I L Ngombe  Ngombe (Central African Republic) 2  nnv
I E Nugunu  Nugunu (Australia) 2  yas
I L Nugunu  Nugunu (Cameroon) 2  nun
I L Nung  Nung (Myanmar) 2  nut
I L Nung  Nung (Viet Nam) 2  oke
I L Okpe  Okpe (Southwestern Edo) 2  okx
I L Okpe  Okpe (Northwestern Edo) 2  pnq
I L Pana  Pana (Burkina Faso) 2  pnz
I L Pana  Pana (Central African Republic) 2  ria
I L Riang  Riang (India) 2  ril
I L Riang  Riang (Myanmar) 2  sng
I L Sanga  Sanga (Democratic Republic of Congo) 2  xsn
I L Sanga  Sanga (Nigeria) 2  sbp
I L Sangu  Sangu (Tanzania) 2  snq
I L Sangu  Sangu (Gabon) 2  ske
I L Seke  Seke (Vanuatu) 2  skj
I L Seke  Seke (Nepal) 2  spb
I L Sepa  Sepa (Indonesia) 2  spe
I L Sepa  Sepa (Papua New Guinea) 2  soc
I L So  So (Democratic Republic of Congo) 2  sox
I L So  So (Cameroon) 2  swa sw M L Swahili  Swahili (macrolanguage) 2  swh
I L Swahili  Swahili (individual language) 2  ten
I E Tama  Tama (Colombia) 2  tma
I L Tama  Tama (Chad) 2  tcl
I L Taman  Taman (Myanmar) 2  tmn
I L Taman  Taman (Indonesia) 2  tbt
I L Tembo  Tembo (Kitembo) 2  tmv
I L Tembo  Tembo (Motembo) 2  tew
I L Tewa  Tewa (USA) 2  twe
I L Tewa  Tewa (Indonesia) 2  tnz
I L Tonga  Tonga (Thailand) 4  tog
I L Tonga  Tonga (Nyasa) 4  toi
I L Tonga  Tonga (Zambia) 4  ton to I L Tonga  Tonga (Tonga Islands) 4  don
I L Toura  Toura (Papua New Guinea) 2  neb
I L Toura  Toura (CÃ´te d'Ivoire) 2  uro
I L Ura  Ura (Papua New Guinea) 2  uur
I L Ura  Ura (Vanuatu) 2  wll
I L Wali  Wali (Sudan) 2  wlx
I L Wali  Wali (Ghana) 2  war
I L Waray  Waray (Philippines) 2  wrz
I L Waray  Waray (Australia) 2  wmo
I L Wom  Wom (Papua New Guinea) 2  wom
I L Wom  Wom (Nigeria) 2  axk
I L Yaka  Yaka (Central African Republic) 3  iyx
I L Yaka  Yaka (Congo) 3  yaf
I L Yaka  Yaka (Democratic Republic of Congo) 3  yuw
I L Yau  Yau (Morobe Province) 2  yyu
I L Yau  Yau (Sandaun Province) 2

Here are the unique parentheticals:

 (Akwa Ibom State)  (Australia)  (Bas-UÃ(c)lÃ(c) District)  (Benin)  (Bomberai
Peninsula)  (Brazil)  (Burkina Faso)  (CÃ´te d'Ivoire)  (Cameroon)  (Central
African Republic)  (Chad)  (Chimwera)  (China)  (Colombia)  (Congo)
(Democratic
Republic of Congo)  (East Sepik Province)  (Eastern Highlands)  (Edu
State)  (Equatorial
Guinea)  (Ethiopia)  (Fako Division)  (Gabon)  (Ghana)  (Guinea)
(India)  (individual
language)  (Indonesia)  (Japan)  (Kenya)  (Kitembo)  (Korea)  (Laos)
(Liberia)  (macrolanguage)  (Madang Province)  (Maluku)  (Menchum
Division)  (Mor
Islands)  (Morobe Province)  (Motembo)  (Myanmar)  (Namibia)  (Nepal)
(Nigeria)  (Northwestern Edo)  (Nyasa)  (Pakistan)  (Papua New Guinea)
(Paraguay)  (Philippines)  (Russia)  (Sandaun Province)  (Sierra
Leone)  (Solomon
Islands)  (Southwestern Edo)  (Sudan)  (Sulawesi)  (Tanzania)  (Thailand)
(Togo)  (Tonga Islands)  (Tshopo District)  (Uganda)  (USA)  (Vanuatu)  (Viet
Nam)  (West New Britain)  (Zambia)
I don't see much of a problem with any of them except for the
(macro/individual language) ones.

Mark

On Dec 8, 2007 10:39 AM, Doug Ewell <[email-masked]> wrote:

> http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell <http://home.roadrunner.com/%7Edewell>

-- 
Mark

---

From: Peter Constable <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:24:35 -0800

It is coincidental that an Altaic language spoken in China and an unrelated isolate language spoken in China both happen to have “Ainu” as their English name.

Peter

From: Mark Davis [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 11:16 AM
To: Doug Ewell
Cc: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)"

I have less of a problem with these, because the parentheticals with geographical names would probably be fairly clear to most people. And because the the 639-2 variant is the most common, I think either of the following would work.
...
Ainu
Ainu (China)
...

or

...
Ainu (Japan)
Ainu (China)
...

Peter, since Ainu is not a macrolanguage, I assume that there is no relationship between aib and ain; that it is just an accident that they have the same English name? (Is the same true for the other name collisions where one of them was in 639-2 and yet they are not under a macrolanguage? Or are those slips through the cracks?)

BTW, here is a list of all the names that are only distinguished by parentheticals in http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/iso-639-3_20071018.tab (don't worry about the UTF-8 munging -- I just forgot to tell Excel that it was UTF-8). At the end I list the unique parentheticals.
aib

I

L

Ainu

Ainu (China)

2

ain

I

L

Ainu

Ainu (Japan)

2

aja

I

L

Aja

Aja (Sudan)

2

ajg

I

L

Aja

Aja (Benin)

2

amm

I

L

Ama

Ama (Papua New Guinea)

2

nyi

I

L

Ama

Ama (Sudan)

2

rwm

I

L

Amba

Amba (Uganda)

2

utp

I

L

Amba

Amba (Solomon Islands)

2

asa

I

L

Asu

Asu (Tanzania)

2

aum

I

L

Asu

Asu (Nigeria)

2

ayq

I

L

Ayi

Ayi (Papua New Guinea)

2

ayx

I

L

Ayi

Ayi (China)

2

bau

I

L

Bada

Bada (Nigeria)

2

bhz

I

L

Bada

Bada (Indonesia)

2

bdh

I

L

Baka

Baka (Sudan)

2

bkc

I

L

Baka

Baka (Cameroon)

2

bcn

I

L

Bali

Bali (Nigeria)

2

bcp

I

L

Bali

Bali (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

bas

I

L

Basa

Basa (Cameroon)

2

bzw

I

L

Basa

Basa (Nigeria)

2

btc

I

L

Bati

Bati (Cameroon)

2

bvt

I

L

Bati

Bati (Indonesia)

2

bey

I

L

Beli

Beli (Papua New Guinea)

2

blm

I

L

Beli

Beli (Sudan)

2

bem

I

L

Bemba

Bemba (Zambia)

2

bmy

I

L

Bemba

Bemba (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

bez

I

L

Bena

Bena (Tanzania)

2

yun

I

L

Bena

Bena (Nigeria)

2

btb

I

L

Beti

Beti (Cameroon)

2

eot

I

L

Beti

Beti (CÃ´te d'Ivoire)

2

bmn

I

E

Bina

Bina (Papua New Guinea)

2

byj

I

L

Bina

Bina (Nigeria)

2

bgl

I

L

Bo

Bo (Laos)

2

bpw

I

L

Bo

Bo (Papua New Guinea)

2

bzl

I

L

Boano

Boano (Sulawesi)

2

bzn

I

L

Boano

Boano (Maluku)

2

boy

I

L

Bodo

Bodo (Central African Republic)

2

brx

I

L

Bodo

Bodo (India)

2

bkp

I

L

Boko

Boko (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

bqc

I

L

Boko

Boko (Benin)

2

bwu

I

L

Buli

Buli (Ghana)

2

bzq

I

L

Buli

Buli (Indonesia)

2

bjl

I

L

Bulu

Bulu (Papua New Guinea)

2

bum

I

L

Bulu

Bulu (Cameroon)

2

bqw

I

L

Buru

Buru (Nigeria)

2

mhs

I

L

Buru

Buru (Indonesia)

2

ddn

I

L

Dendi

Dendi (Benin)

2

deq

I

L

Dendi

Dendi (Central African Republic)

2

kbv

I

L

Dera

Dera (Indonesia)

2

kna

I

L

Dera

Dera (Nigeria)

2

dha

I

L

Dhanwar

Dhanwar (India)

2

dhw

I

L

Dhanwar

Dhanwar (Nepal)

2

dgo

I

L

Dogri

Dogri (individual language)

2

doi

M

L

Dogri

Dogri (macrolanguage)

2

env

I

L

Enwan

Enwan (Edu State)

2

enw

I

L

Enwan

Enwan (Akwa Ibom State)

2

etn

I

L

Eton

Eton (Vanuatu)

2

eto

I

L

Eton

Eton (Cameroon)

2

fak

I

L

Fang

Fang (Cameroon)

2

fan

I

L

Fang

Fang (Equatorial Guinea)

2

gba

M

L

Gbaya

Gbaya (Central African Republic)

2

krs

I

L

Gbaya

Gbaya (Sudan)

2

gim

I

L

Gimi

Gimi (Eastern Highlands)

2

gip

I

L

Gimi

Gimi (West New Britain)

2

gqn

I

E

Guana

Guana (Brazil)

2

gva

I

L

Guana

Guana (Paraguay)

2

glu

I

L

Gula

Gula (Chad)

2

kcm

I

L

Gula

Gula (Central African Republic)

2

isu

I

L

Isu

Isu (Menchum Division)

2

szv

I

L

Isu

Isu (Fako Division)

2

anq

I

L

Jarawa

Jarawa (India)

2

jar

I

L

Jarawa

Jarawa (Nigeria)

2

jim

I

L

Jimi

Jimi (Cameroon)

2

jmi

I

L

Jimi

Jimi (Nigeria)

2

kam

I

L

Kamba

Kamba (Kenya)

2

xba

I

E

Kamba

Kamba (Brazil)

2

kcu

I

L

Kami

Kami (Tanzania)

2

kmi

I

L

Kami

Kami (Nigeria)

2

kty

I

L

Kango

Kango (Bas-UÃ©lÃ© District)

2

kzy

I

L

Kango

Kango (Tshopo District)

2

kah

I

L

Kara

Kara (Central African Republic)

4

leu

I

L

Kara

Kara (Papua New Guinea)

4

reg

I

L

Kara

Kara (Tanzania)

4

zra

I

E

Kara

Kara (Korea)

4

kbn

I

L

Kare

Kare (Central African Republic)

2

kmf

I

L

Kare

Kare (Papua New Guinea)

2

arr

I

L

Karo

Karo (Brazil)

2

kxh

I

L

Karo

Karo (Ethiopia)

2

kcl

I

L

Kela

Kela (Papua New Guinea)

2

kel

I

L

Kela

Kela (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

khy

I

L

Kele

Kele (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

sbc

I

L

Kele

Kele (Papua New Guinea)

2

ktu

I

L

Kituba

Kituba (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

mkw

I

L

Kituba

Kituba (Congo)

2

biw

I

L

Kol

Kol (Cameroon)

2

kol

I

L

Kol

Kol (Papua New Guinea)

2

bkm

I

L

Kom

Kom (Cameroon)

2

kmm

I

L

Kom

Kom (India)

2

kmw

I

L

Komo

Komo (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

xom

I

L

Komo

Komo (Sudan)

2

knn

I

L

Konkani

Konkani (individual language)

2

kok

M

L

Konkani

Konkani (macrolanguage)

2

klk

I

L

Kono

Kono (Nigeria)

3

kno

I

L

Kono

Kono (Sierra Leone)

3

knu

I

L

Kono

Kono (Guinea)

3

kfo

I

L

Koro

Koro (CÃ´te d'Ivoire)

3

krf

I

L

Koro

Koro (Vanuatu)

3

kxr

I

L

Koro

Koro (Papua New Guinea)

3

kfe

I

L

Kota

Kota (India)

2

koq

I

L

Kota

Kota (Gabon)

2

kvd

I

L

Kui

Kui (Indonesia)

2

kxu

I

L

Kui

Kui (India)

2

bbu

I

L

Kulung

Kulung (Nigeria)

2

kle

I

L

Kulung

Kulung (Nepal)

2

lha

I

L

Laha

Laha (Viet Nam)

2

lhh

I

L

Laha

Laha (Indonesia)

2

lak

I

L

Laka

Laka (Nigeria)

2

lap

I

L

Laka

Laka (Chad)

2

las

I

L

Lama

Lama (Togo)

2

lay

I

L

Lama

Lama (Myanmar)

2

laj

I

L

Lango

Lango (Uganda)

2

lno

I

L

Lango

Lango (Sudan)

2

lel

I

L

Lele

Lele (Democratic Republic of Congo)

4

llc

I

L

Lele

Lele (Guinea)

4

lle

I

L

Lele

Lele (Papua New Guinea)

4

lln

I

L

Lele

Lele (Chad)

4

leo

I

L

Leti

Leti (Cameroon)

2

lti

I

L

Leti

Leti (Indonesia)

2

loi

I

L

Loma

Loma (CÃ´te d'Ivoire)

2

lom

I

L

Loma

Loma (Liberia)

2

mjn

I

L

Ma

Ma (Papua New Guinea)

2

msj

I

L

Ma

Ma (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

mde

I

L

Maba

Maba (Chad)

2

mqa

I

L

Maba

Maba (Indonesia)

2

mda

I

L

Mada

Mada (Nigeria)

2

mxu

I

L

Mada

Mada (Cameroon)

2

mti

I

L

Maiwa

Maiwa (Papua New Guinea)

2

wmm

I

L

Maiwa

Maiwa (Indonesia)

2

mkg

I

L

Mak

Mak (China)

2

pbl

I

L

Mak

Mak (Nigeria)

2

ped

I

L

Mala

Mala (Papua New Guinea)

2

ruy

I

L

Mala

Mala (Nigeria)

2

mly

I

L

Malay

Malay (individual language)

2

msa

ms

M

L

Malay

Malay (macrolanguage)

2

mdc

I

L

Male

Male (Papua New Guinea)

2

mdy

I

L

Male

Male (Ethiopia)

2

mgs

I

L

Manda

Manda (Tanzania)

3

mha

I

L

Manda

Manda (India)

3

zma

I

L

Manda

Manda (Australia)

3

chm

M

L

Mari

Mari (Russia)

3

hob

I

L

Mari

Mari (Madang Province)

3

mbx

I

L

Mari

Mari (East Sepik Province)

3

mds

I

L

Maria

Maria (Papua New Guinea)

2

mrr

I

L

Maria

Maria (India)

2

mve

I

L

Marwari

Marwari (Pakistan)

2

rwr

I

L

Marwari

Marwari (India)

2

jms

I

L

Mashi

Mashi (Nigeria)

2

mho

I

L

Mashi

Mashi (Zambia)

2

mcw

I

L

Mawa

Mawa (Chad)

2

wma

I

E

Mawa

Mawa (Nigeria)

2

mpk

I

L

Mbara

Mbara (Chad)

2

mvl

I

E

Mbara

Mbara (Australia)

2

mbo

I

L

Mbo

Mbo (Cameroon)

2

zmw

I

L

Mbo

Mbo (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

men

I

L

Mende

Mende (Sierra Leone)

2

sim

I

L

Mende

Mende (Papua New Guinea)

2

hna

I

L

Mina

Mina (Cameroon)

2

myi

I

L

Mina

Mina (India)

2

mow

I

L

Moi

Moi (Congo)

2

mxn

I

L

Moi

Moi (Indonesia)

2

mnh

I

L

Mono

Mono (Democratic Republic of Congo)

4

mnr

I

L

Mono

Mono (USA)

4

mru

I

L

Mono

Mono (Cameroon)

4

mte

I

L

Mono

Mono (Solomon Islands)

4

mhz

I

L

Mor

Mor (Mor Islands)

2

moq

I

L

Mor

Mor (Bomberai Peninsula)

2

mjh

I

L

Mwera

Mwera (Nyasa)

2

mwe

I

L

Mwera

Mwera (Chimwera)

2

naq

I

L

Nama

Nama (Namibia)

2

nmx

I

L

Nama

Nama (Papua New Guinea)

2

ngd

I

L

Ngando

Ngando (Central African Republic)

2

nxd

I

L

Ngando

Ngando (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

ngc

I

L

Ngombe

Ngombe (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

nmj

I

L

Ngombe

Ngombe (Central African Republic)

2

nnv

I

E

Nugunu

Nugunu (Australia)

2

yas

I

L

Nugunu

Nugunu (Cameroon)

2

nun

I

L

Nung

Nung (Myanmar)

2

nut

I

L

Nung

Nung (Viet Nam)

2

oke

I

L

Okpe

Okpe (Southwestern Edo)

2

okx

I

L

Okpe

Okpe (Northwestern Edo)

2

pnq

I

L

Pana

Pana (Burkina Faso)

2

pnz

I

L

Pana

Pana (Central African Republic)

2

ria

I

L

Riang

Riang (India)

2

ril

I

L

Riang

Riang (Myanmar)

2

sng

I

L

Sanga

Sanga (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

xsn

I

L

Sanga

Sanga (Nigeria)

2

sbp

I

L

Sangu

Sangu (Tanzania)

2

snq

I

L

Sangu

Sangu (Gabon)

2

ske

I

L

Seke

Seke (Vanuatu)

2

skj

I

L

Seke

Seke (Nepal)

2

spb

I

L

Sepa

Sepa (Indonesia)

2

spe

I

L

Sepa

Sepa (Papua New Guinea)

2

soc

I

L

So

So (Democratic Republic of Congo)

2

sox

I

L

So

So (Cameroon)

2

swa

sw

M

L

Swahili

Swahili (macrolanguage)

2

swh

I

L

Swahili

Swahili (individual language)

2

ten

I

E

Tama

Tama (Colombia)

2

tma

I

L

Tama

Tama (Chad)

2

tcl

I

L

Taman

Taman (Myanmar)

2

tmn

I

L

Taman

Taman (Indonesia)

2

tbt

I

L

Tembo

Tembo (Kitembo)

2

tmv

I

L

Tembo

Tembo (Motembo)

2

tew

I

L

Tewa

Tewa (USA)

2

twe

I

L

Tewa

Tewa (Indonesia)

2

tnz

I

L

Tonga

Tonga (Thailand)

4

tog

I

L

Tonga

Tonga (Nyasa)

4

toi

I

L

Tonga

Tonga (Zambia)

4

ton

to

I

L

Tonga

Tonga (Tonga Islands)

4

don

I

L

Toura

Toura (Papua New Guinea)

2

neb

I

L

Toura

Toura (CÃ´te d'Ivoire)

2

uro

I

L

Ura

Ura (Papua New Guinea)

2

uur

I

L

Ura

Ura (Vanuatu)

2

wll

I

L

Wali

Wali (Sudan)

2

wlx

I

L

Wali

Wali (Ghana)

2

war

I

L

Waray

Waray (Philippines)

2

wrz

I

L

Waray

Waray (Australia)

2

wmo

I

L

Wom

Wom (Papua New Guinea)

2

wom

I

L

Wom

Wom (Nigeria)

2

axk

I

L

Yaka

Yaka (Central African Republic)

3

iyx

I

L

Yaka

Yaka (Congo)

3

yaf

I

L

Yaka

Yaka (Democratic Republic of Congo)

3

yuw

I

L

Yau

Yau (Morobe Province)

2

yyu

I

L

Yau

Yau (Sandaun Province)

2

(Akwa Ibom State)

(Australia)

(Bas-UÃ©lÃ© District)

(Benin)

(Bomberai Peninsula)

(Brazil)

(Burkina Faso)

(CÃ´te d'Ivoire)

(Cameroon)

(Central African Republic)

(Chad)

(Chimwera)

(China)

(Colombia)

(Congo)

(Democratic Republic of Congo)

(East Sepik Province)

(Eastern Highlands)

(Edu State)

(Equatorial Guinea)

(Ethiopia)

(Fako Division)

(Gabon)

(Ghana)

(Guinea)

(India)

(individual language)

(Indonesia)

(Japan)

(Kenya)

(Kitembo)

(Korea)

(Laos)

(Liberia)

(macrolanguage)

(Madang Province)

(Maluku)

(Menchum Division)

(Mor Islands)

(Morobe Province)

(Motembo)

(Myanmar)

(Namibia)

(Nepal)

(Nigeria)

(Northwestern Edo)

(Nyasa)

(Pakistan)

(Papua New Guinea)

(Paraguay)

(Philippines)

(Russia)

(Sandaun Province)

(Sierra Leone)

(Solomon Islands)

(Southwestern Edo)

(Sudan)

(Sulawesi)

(Tanzania)

(Thailand)

(Togo)

(Tonga Islands)

(Tshopo District)

(Uganda)

(USA)

(Vanuatu)

(Viet Nam)

(West New Britain)

(Zambia)

I don't see much of a problem with any of them except for the (macro/individual language) ones.

Mark
On Dec 8, 2007 10:39 AM, Doug Ewell < [email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:
Incidentally, this same question applies to cases like the following:

Type: language
Subtag: ain

where:

--
Doug Ewell  *  Fullerton, California, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://home.roadrunner.com/~dewell<http://home.roadrunner.com/%7Edewell>
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

---

From: "Doug Ewell" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:30:02 -0800

Peter Constable wrote:

> It is coincidental that an Altaic language spoken in China and an 
> unrelated isolate language spoken in China both happen to have “Ainu” 
> as their English name.

Recte: an unrelated isolate language spoken in Japan

---

From: "Mark Davis" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:30:50 -0800

I suspected as much. Is that the case for all the other duplicates that have
one of them defined in 639-2?

Mark

On Dec 8, 2007 11:24 AM, Peter Constable <[email-masked]> wrote:

> unrelated isolate language spoken in China both happen to have "Ainu" as
> their English name.
>
>
>
> Peter
>

---

From: Peter Constable <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:35:14 -0800

You’re going to need to clarify that question for me to understand what you have in mind.

Peter

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 11:31 AM
To: Peter Constable
Cc: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)"

I suspected as much. Is that the case for all the other duplicates that have one of them defined in 639-2?

Mark
On Dec 8, 2007 11:24 AM, Peter Constable < [email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:

It is coincidental that an Altaic language spoken in China and an unrelated isolate language spoken in China both happen to have "Ainu" as their English name.

Peter

---

From: Peter Constable <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:35:51 -0800

> From: Doug Ewell [mailto:[email-masked]]

> Recte: an unrelated isolate language spoken in Japan

Quite so.

Peter

---

From: "Mark Davis" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 12:07:06 -0800

Sorry. What I mean is, when you look at the list I sent out, there are lots
of duplicate names, like Mari, Konkani, Kare, etc. Some of those have
macrolanguage relationships (like Mari), and some don't (like Ainu). There
are 4 possible classes of duplicates:

1. They have no genetic relationship, thus there is no macrolanguage (Ainu)
2. They have a genetic relationship, but neither was in 639-2, so there is
no need for a macrolanguage (Tonga?)
3. They have a genetic relationship, and one was in 639-2, so there is a
macrolanguage (Mari)
4. They have a genetic relationship, and one was in 639-2, so one of them
should be a macrolanguage but isn't. (??)

I wanted confirmation that #4 was empty.

Mark

On Dec 8, 2007 11:35 AM, Peter Constable <[email-masked]> wrote:

>  You're going to need to clarify that question for me to understand what
> you have in mind.
>
>
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> *From:* [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] *On
> Behalf Of *Mark Davis
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 08, 2007 11:31 AM
> *To:* Peter Constable
> *Cc:* Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group
> *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)"
>
>
>
> On Dec 8, 2007 11:24 AM, Peter Constable < [email-masked]> wrote:
>

---

From: "Doug Ewell" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 12:14:59 -0800

Mark Davis wrote:

> There are 4 possible classes of duplicates:
>
> 2. They have a genetic relationship, but neither was in 639-2, so 
> there is no need for a macrolanguage (Tonga?)
> 3. They have a genetic relationship, and one was in 639-2, so there is 
> a macrolanguage (Mari)
> 4. They have a genetic relationship, and one was in 639-2, so one of 
> them should be a macrolanguage but isn't. (??)
>

For my part, I've assumed all along that SIL got it right with regard to 
the parenthesized country or region names, that "X (Indonesia)" and "X 
(Philippines)" are truly different languages and not regional variants 
or otherwise related.

I've certainly assumed that #4 is empty.

---

From: Peter Constable <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:36:30 -0800

#4 is *not* empty; but your classifications are too simplistic for the actual data. In particular, I consider the assumption that if there is a genetic relationship and one is in 639-2 that therefore it should be a macrolanguage to be invalid.

Potential cases of languages

-          with the same

-          genetically related

-          one is in 639-2 but is not a macrolanguage encompassing the other(s)

include the following (item in 639-2 listed first):

bas vs. bzw: These are two Niger-Congo languages separated at a genetic level that encompasses 961 languages.

bem vs. bey: These are two Bantoid languages separated at a genetic level that encompasses 513 languages.

fan vs. fak: These are two Bantoid languages separated at a genetic level that encompasses 659 languages

luo vs. luw: luw is not yet classified, so this pair may or may not fit the criteria. They are not regionally contiguous. Also, luw is all but extinct (known speaker population = 1), so there’s likely no body of documents, and hence no useful reason to consider it encompassed by luo.

Now, in the first three cases, geographic proximity might provide a basis to say that a macrolanguage is appropriate in spite of the genetic distance. But because of the distance it’s really a stretch to suppose that anyone would find it useful to tag documents from the two varieties the same.

Peter

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 12:07 PM
To: Peter Constable
Cc: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] "X" vs. 'X (macrolanguage)"

Sorry. What I mean is, when you look at the list I sent out, there are lots of duplicate names, like Mari, Konkani, Kare, etc. Some of those have macrolanguage relationships (like Mari), and some don't (like Ainu). There are 4 possible classes of duplicates:

1. They have no genetic relationship, thus there is no macrolanguage (Ainu)
2. They have a genetic relationship, but neither was in 639-2, so there is no need for a macrolanguage (Tonga?)
3. They have a genetic relationship, and one was in 639-2, so there is a macrolanguage (Mari)
4. They have a genetic relationship, and one was in 639-2, so one of them should be a macrolanguage but isn't. (??)

Mark
On Dec 8, 2007 11:35 AM, Peter Constable < [email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:

You're going to need to clarify that question for me to understand what you have in mind.

Peter

From: [email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]> [mailto:[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 11:31 AM
To: Peter Constable
Cc: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group

Mark

Peter

---

From: "Kent Karlsson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 22:47:40 +0100

Mark Davis wrote:

Regarding 2:
 
tnz   I L Tonga  Tonga (Thailand) 4 
tog   I L Tonga  Tonga (Nyasa) 4 
toi   I L Tonga  Tonga (Zambia) 4 
ton to I L Tonga  Tonga (Tonga Islands) 4 
 
Given the geographical spread here, it seems unlikely that these four are all related...
And Ethnologue says they are not related, not even the Nyasa (Malawi) and Zambia ones.
 
But in general, if there is a macrolanguage relationship that should have been noted in
639-3 quite regardless of 639-2, should it not. If not, I think something is wrong
(and then I'm especially happy that the extlang reserved feature will not be used).
 
Regarding the country parentheticals, I'm not too happy about them either.
A language may well be spoken, in a significant fraction, outside of the
country of origin. And the display names, in at least one display name
generator, will turn out strange. Take tnz as an example:
 
tnz            Tonga (Thailand)
tnz-TH       Tonga (Thailand) (Thailand)
tnz-MY      Tonga (Thailand) (Malaysia)
 
Compare to:
 
th         Thai
th-TH    Thai (Thailand)
 
"Tonga (Thailand)" could be (mis)read as "Tonga as spoken in Thailand"
(with some extra implications for locale choice, which may also
imply (default) currency choice).
 
While not directly an LTRU issue, it's close enough I think.

            /kent k

---

From: "Mark Davis" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 14:38:03 -0800

Fair enough; I'm not trying to argue with you on this, just trying to get
the picture straight in my own mind. And since there are only a small number
of language names (4) that need to be distinguished with " (macrolanguage)"
and " (individual language)", it is really not a big deal; I guess we can
just leave that issue to UI designers to deal with.

Mark

On Dec 8, 2007 1:36 PM, Peter Constable <[email-masked]> wrote:

>  #4 is **not** empty; but your classifications are too simplistic for the
> actual data. In particular, I consider the assumption that if there is a
> genetic relationship and one is in 639-2 that therefore it should be a
> macrolanguage to be invalid.
>
>
>
> luo vs. luw: luw is not yet classified, so this pair may or may not fit
> the criteria. They are not regionally contiguous. Also, luw is all but
> extinct (known speaker population = 1), so there's likely no body of
> documents, and hence no useful reason to consider it encompassed by luo.
>
>
>
> Now, in the first three cases, geographic proximity might provide a basis
> to say that a macrolanguage is appropriate in spite of the genetic distance.
> But because of the distance it's really a stretch to suppose that anyone
> would find it useful to tag documents from the two varieties the same.
>
>
>
>
>
> Peter
>

---

From: "Doug Ewell" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 14:50:31 -0800

> And Ethnologue says they are not related, not even the Nyasa (Malawi) 

I'm satisfied that they are unrelated, and I'm convinced that if they 
were, SIL would have noticed this and coded or described them 
differently.  I don't see any disagreement here.

> Regarding the country parentheticals, I'm not too happy about them 
> either. A language may well be spoken, in a significant fraction, 
> outside of the country of origin.

The parenthesized country names are just to indicate which Tonga we are 
talking about.  Ethnologue shows that Tonga (Thailand) is also spoken in 
Malaysia.  (Ignore the bit about "may be extinct" for now; it's an 
example.)

> And the display names, in at least one display name generator, will 
> turn out strange. Take tnz as an example:
>
> tnz            Tonga (Thailand)

Do you have an alternative suggestion that will satisfy the WG members 
who want Description fields to match the ISO names?

For user interfaces, of course, you can rename these languages as you 
please.