Subject: [Ltru] Lowercase language names and the Registry

From: "Doug Ewell" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 23:08:25 -0700

In the past few days, ISO 639-3/RA has released two updates to their 
code list: a major update on January 20 comprising dozens of changes 
proposed throughout 2008, and a much smaller update on January 26 with a 
couple of additional changes.

All of these changes affect the proposed Registry contents in 
draft-4645bis, and some affect the prose as well.  For example, Section 
2.2 says that sign languages are identified and made into extlangs on 
the basis that the name includes the words "Sign Language."  However, 
with the January 20 changes, ISO 639-3/RA approved a sign language 
called "International Sign" (not "International Sign Language"), which 
means this rule in draft-4645bis needs to be modified slightly.

One change that I think needs to be presented to the WG involves 
lowercase language names.  In previous revisions of ISO 639-3, the 
language code 'fss' had the following name:

    Finnish-Swedish Sign Language

In the January 20 revision, this name was changed slightly and two 
translations were added, as follows:

    Finland-Swedish Sign Language
    Finlandssvenskt Teckenspråk
    Suomenruotsalainen Viittomakieli

As a general rule, we and the ietf-languages group try to avoid adding 
translated language names to the IANA Language Subtag Registry.  The 
Registry is not primarily intended to be a dictionary of language names 
in various languages.  But when these translations are provided as 
official names by the ISO standard, we go ahead and include them.

So far so good, but then the January 26 revision came along and 
lowercased the Finnish and Swedish names, as the requestor originally 
suggested (see http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/2008-028.pdf):

    Finland-Swedish Sign Language
    finlandssvenskt teckenspråk
    suomenruotsalainen viittomakieli

The only Description field for a language name in the current LSR that 
begins with a lowercase letter is "tlhIngan-Hol", an additional name for 
Klingon (subtag 'tlh').  Without straying off-topic and getting into the 
sort of flame war that usually accompanies discussions about Klingon, 
this lowercased spelling is generally accepted as the "correct" spelling 
according to the Latin-script orthography for Klingon.

However, I question whether this situation applies to the Finnish and 
Swedish translations above.  With the single exception above, 
Description fields for language subtags normally start with a capital 
letter.  Note that ISO 639-3 already has translated names for other sign 
languages, such as "Catalan Sign Language," and has chosen to spell 
their additional names with an initial capital:

Lengua de señas catalana
Llengua de Signes Catalana

I propose that for draft-4645bis and the Language Subtag Registry 
generally, we introduce a rule that Description fields for language 
subtags be modified from the ISO-provided name if necessary to ensure 
they begin with a capital letter, unless the lowercase letter is 
considered necessary to spell the name correctly (as it is in 
"tlhIngan-Hol").  This is consistent with draft-4646bis, Section 3.1.5, 
which allows Description fields to be "edited or modified" from the ISO 
rendering.

Unless someone objects on-list to this rather pedantic suggestion, it 
will be added to the next draft-4645bis.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ

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---

From: Gerard Meijssen <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 08:17:11 +0100

Hoi,
I have always sadly wondered why the names of languages as spelled in those
languages is allowed to be incorrect according to the rules of that
language. The only reason that I know is the "history" of a list. A language
like Swedish is sverige in Swedish. This list goes on.
Thanks,
      Gerard

2009/1/30 Doug Ewell <[email-masked]>

In the past few days, ISO 639-3/RA has released two updates to their code
> list: a major update on January 20 comprising dozens of changes proposed
> throughout 2008, and a much smaller update on January 26 with a couple of
> additional changes.
>
> draft-4645bis, and some affect the prose as well.  For example, Section 2.2
> says that sign languages are identified and made into extlangs on the basis
> that the name includes the words "Sign Language."  However, with the January
> 20 changes, ISO 639-3/RA approved a sign language called "International
> Sign" (not "International Sign Language"), which means this rule in
> draft-4645bis needs to be modified slightly.
>
> One change that I think needs to be presented to the WG involves lowercase
> language names.  In previous revisions of ISO 639-3, the language code 'fss'
> had the following name:
>
> Registry is not primarily intended to be a dictionary of language names in
> various languages.  But when these translations are provided as official
> names by the ISO standard, we go ahead and include them.
>
> So far so good, but then the January 26 revision came along and lowercased
> the Finnish and Swedish names, as the requestor originally suggested (see
> http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/2008-028.pdf):
>
> sort of flame war that usually accompanies discussions about Klingon, this
> lowercased spelling is generally accepted as the "correct" spelling
> Swedish translations above.  With the single exception above, Description
> fields for language subtags normally start with a capital letter.  Note that
> ISO 639-3 already has translated names for other sign languages, such as
> "Catalan Sign Language," and has chosen to spell their additional names with
> an initial capital:
>
> Lengua de señas catalana
> generally, we introduce a rule that Description fields for language subtags
> be modified from the ISO-provided name if necessary to ensure they begin
> with a capital letter, unless the lowercase letter is considered necessary
> to spell the name correctly (as it is in "tlhIngan-Hol").  This is
> consistent with draft-4646bis, Section 3.1.5, which allows Description
> fields to be "edited or modified" from the ISO rendering.
>
> Unless someone objects on-list to this rather pedantic suggestion, it will
> be added to the next draft-4645bis.
>
> --

---

From: Kent Karlsson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:11:06 +0100

(for some reason all of the original message text has been turned into a
single paragraph; I'm not going to reedit back the newlines)

I would suggest leaving this alone for 4645bis. I have objected to adding
these translations to 639-3, as 639-3 normally does not provide any
translations. (And I pointed out the inappropriateness of applying the
American English bad habit of "titlecasing" to names in other languages. It
is inappropriate for English as well.) It may also happen that these
translations may disappear in a later revision of 639-3 registry content.

    /kent k

> In the past few days, ISO 639-3/RA has released two updates to their 
code
> throughout 2008, and a much smaller update on January 26 with a 
couple of

All of these changes affect the proposed Registry
> contents in 
draft-4645bis, and some affect the prose as well.  For example,
> Section 
with
> the January 20 changes, ISO 639-3/RA approved a sign language 
called
> "International Sign" (not "International Sign Language"), which 
means this
> rule in draft-4645bis needs to be modified slightly.

One change that I think
> needs to be presented to the WG involves 
lowercase language names.  In
> previous revisions of ISO 639-3, the 
language code 'fss' had the following
> name:

In the January 20 revision, this
> name was changed slightly and two 

> Suomenruotsalainen Viittomakieli

As a general rule, we and the ietf-languages
> group try to avoid adding 
translated language names to the IANA Language
> Subtag Registry.  The 
Registry is not primarily intended to be a dictionary
> of language names 
in various languages.  But when these translations are
> provided as 
official names by the ISO standard, we go ahead and include
> them.

> suomenruotsalainen viittomakieli

The only Description field for a language
> name in the current LSR that 
begins with a lowercase letter is
> "tlhIngan-Hol", an additional name for 
Klingon (subtag 'tlh').  Without
> straying off-topic and getting into the 
sort of flame war that usually
> accompanies discussions about Klingon, 
this lowercased spelling is generally
> accepted as the "correct" spelling 
according to the Latin-script orthography
> for Klingon.

However, I question whether this situation applies to the
> Finnish and 
their
> additional names with an initial capital:

Lengua de señas catalana
Llengua de
> Signes Catalana

I propose that for draft-4645bis and the Language Subtag
> Registry 
they
> begin with a capital letter, unless the lowercase letter is 
considered
> necessary to spell the name correctly (as it is in 
"tlhIngan-Hol").  This is
> consistent with draft-4646bis, Section 3.1.5, 
which allows Description fields
> to be "edited or modified" from the ISO 
rendering.

Unless someone objects
> on-list to this rather pedantic suggestion, it 
will be added to the next
> draft-4645bis.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN
> #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.htm
> l
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
> –

Ltru mailing
> list
[email-masked]

---

From: Kent Karlsson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:11:12 +0100

Well, "sverige" would mean "sweden"; "Swedish" is called "svenska".

   While we are nitpicking
    /kent k

Den 2009-01-30 08.17, skrev "Gerard Meijssen" <[email-masked]>:

> languages is allowed to be incorrect according to the rules of that language.
> The only reason that I know is the "history" of a list. A language like
> Swedish is sverige in Swedish. This list goes on.
> Thanks,
>       Gerard

---

From: Gerard Meijssen <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:57:46 +0100

Hoi,
You are completely right... It shows that I do not know Swedish :) The
sentiment is however the same.
Thanks,
      Gerard

2009/1/30 Kent Karlsson <[email-masked]>

---

From: Gerard Meijssen <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:00:31 +0100

Hoi,
The CLDR does include the original names of languages. There is also room
for the translations in all other languages. Consequently it seems
appropriate to me to refer to the CLDR for translations of languages.
Thanks,
      Gerard

---

From: "Doug Ewell" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 07:03:01 -0700

Kent Karlsson <kent dot karlsson14 at comhem dot se> wrote:

> I would suggest leaving this alone for 4645bis. I have objected to 
> adding these translations to 639-3, as 639-3 normally does not provide 
> any translations.

The only reason we're talking about these translations is that 639-3 
provided them.  This does seem to happen more with sign languages than 
with traditional spoken/written languages.

The request form to make these changes said, "The next two names 
proposed are from Finnish and Swedish, respectively. Since Finnish and 
Swedish are national languages in Finland, it seems reasonable to 
include the Finnish and Swedish names for this sign language in the ISO 
639-3 registry."  I'm not sure why the RA agreed that this was 
reasonable or within the scope of the standard, but they did.

> (And I pointed out the inappropriateness of applying the American 
> English bad habit of "titlecasing" to names in other languages. It is 
> inappropriate for English as well.)

If you mean it is inappropriate to write the English name 
"Finland-Swedish Sign Language" in titlecase instead of "Finland-Swedish 
sign language" in sentence case, that is a matter of stylistic 
preference, because these are labels within the Registry and not part of 
a sentence.

Gerard Meijssen <gerard dot meijssen at gmail dot com> wrote:

> I have always sadly wondered why the names of languages as spelled in 
> those languages is allowed to be incorrect according to the rules of 
> that language. The only reason that I know is the "history" of a list. 
> A language like Swedish is [svenska] in Swedish. This list goes on.

Mostly I was trying to take an inconsistency in the 639-3 code list, in 
which the translations into Spanish and Catalan that I cited were 
capitalized but these Finnish and Swedish translations were not, and 
regularize it.

Both posters make very good points, however.

---

From: Leif Halvard Silli <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:14:40 +0100

>    suomenruotsalainen viittomakieli

    [...]

> will be added to the next draft-4645bis.

In my view it is defendable to let language names begin with 
upper-case letter even in Scandinavian languages, as long as the 
names appears in a list -aka "menu" - as opposed to in a comma 
separated line of words. Hence, I'm ok with it.
-- 
leif halvard silli
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