Subject: [Manycouches] Fwd: IETF 113 will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria

From: Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:44:22 +0100

fyi

I have not read it completely

-------- Message transféré --------
Sujet : 	IETF 113 will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria
Date : 	Wed, 22 Dec 2021 14:41:52 +1300
De : 	IETF Executive Director <[email-masked]>
Répondre à : 	[email-masked]
Pour : 	IETF Announcement List <[email-masked]>

IETF 113 will be held as a hybrid onsite/online meeting with the onsite 
element in Vienna, Austria at the Hilton Vienna Park from 19-25 March 
2022. This is a location change from the originally planned Bangkok, 
Thailand.

# Decision making

In making this decision the IETF Administration LLC has carefully 
considered the current circumstances, the desire of the community and 
the guidance of the IESG to answer a series of questions:

1. Is it possible to hold an international onsite meeting?

We believe that it is now possible to hold an international meeting, as 
has been shown by the recent IGF meeting among others, provided that 
sensible precautions are taken and that the chosen venue has clear and 
workable rules. Austria has clear and workable rules for entry into the 
country and conferences and restaurants.
Clearly, the omicron variant is quickly spreading and some countries are 
responding to that with lockdowns and other restrictions. However, we 
are willing to take the risk that this will be sufficiently managed by 
the time of the meeting that it can go ahead.

2. Is it safe to hold an international onsite meeting?

We believe that it is acceptably safe to hold an international meeting. 
COVID-19 is now endemic in most countries and the mitigations and 
precautions are well understood and practised. Austria in particular has 
strict rules regarding entry to the country and in-country movement, 
excellent access to tests and strict controls on the unvaccinated.

A strong majority of IETF participants reside in countries with easy 
access to vaccines, including a booster shot. Unvaccinated people will 
not be able to enter the country or participate onsite at the meeting, 
and the IESG has advised that this exclusion of unvaccinated people 
should not be considered discriminatory.

The US State Dept currently rates Austria at "level 4 - do not travel", 
but sufficient numbers of staff, contractors and supporting volunteers 
are willing to travel despite this that we are wiling to take the risk.

3. Is it viable to hold an onsite meeting and what will the experience 
be for both those onsite and those online?

The IESG has advised that a meeting of approximately 50% the size of a 
normal in person meeting (~500 people) is acceptable. We cannot be 
certain that this number will wish to participate onsite but we are 
willing to take the risk.

This will not be a normal onsite meetings, it will be a hybrid 
onsite/online meeting with changes made so that any disadvantage to 
those who choose not to travel will be minimised. The IESG is planning a 
shorter working day similar to fully online meetings and new technology 
is being provided by Meetecho to provide a more integrated session 
experience.

We believe that the financial risk is acceptable. The contract has a 
strong force majeure cancellation clause and a strong cancel-and-rebook 
clause.

4. is it the right thing to do?

Many in our community want to meet in person again and believe that the 
risk in doing so is acceptable and we believe that supporting this is 
the right thing to do. Moving back to normal meetings will inevitably 
take multiple steps and this is the first of those.

We are well aware that some will regard this as the wrong decision given 
the risks to personal safety involved. However as nobody is required to 
participate in person (that includes staff, contractors and supporting 
volunteers), nor should any participants feel pressure to be onsite, we 
believe that we are finding the correct balance between personal choice, 
personal safety and meeting experience.

The formal assessment is 
https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_113_Vienna_go_no-go_assessment.pdf

Finally, just to note: as this decision is being made with less than 14 
weeks to go until the meeting, this qualifies as an emergency situation 
under RFC 9137 and so this decision has been made without community 
consultation.

# Registrations

Registrations will open in the new year when we have updated the 
registration system and sorted out European VAT. At that time we will 
provide details of what to expect both in travelling and our onsite 
COVID-management practises so that you can make an informed decision. 
Registration fees will be the same for onsite participation as they have 
been previously.

If you have any questions or wish to discuss this further then please 
either reply to [email-masked] or directly to me at 
[email-masked]

Jay

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
[email-masked]

_______________________________________________
IETF-Announce mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce

---

From: Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 17:44:13 +0100

I stand corrected if someone from Austria thinks differently.

But this is what I think now:

Austria and IETF in March is a complete unknown.

One can look at the form of the wave in Austria and maybe expect a
relative high in March, or not, because things change.  See attached.

End of November it was good to plan for an in-person meeting in Austria
by mid-December because that was the plan for getting out of lockdown,
at that time.

By mid-December I learned that the situation varies in Austria: Vienna,
cities and regions have different lockdown states and prolongation.
Then I thought it would not be good to plan an in-person meeting in
Austria before January.

I also learned that Austria has this plan of mandatory vaccinaiton (not
just for specific crafts such as nursery or army, but more universal,
but still depending on age).  The deadline of starting such thing was
for beginning of February.

Then I thought that would be the first in the world that a country makes
such a mandate of vaccination.  Maybe Israel too, but that is special
because of their special ongoing war state of mind, prior to covid
anyways.  In Israel they know what it means to 'lockdown' more than
anybody else; for example in some country there is not even a word to
express this 'lockdown' state, so they use the english word. COmparing
that countryùs understanding of 'lockdown' to ISrael's understanding of
same word is miles apart.

Then it was said that it is not sure that Austria's Feb. 1st vaccination
mandate would work, because many oppose it.  That means many groups,
political as well as in the street, with manifestations ('meeting').
These manifestations are rare now, but a growing event in some
countries.  They manifestate agaiinst covid overall, as if that would
scare the virus.  There are specific requests, but it is hard to tell
who could implement, or whose fault is.  Also, at political level
Austria goes through leadership change because of apparent corruption
aspects, doubly said.

Then omicron arrived seriously.

Still people say that omicron does not change the current vaccination
plan: every 4 months or so a dose of Pfizer.  But still omicron might
change the plan because the so-called vaccine is not really adapted to
it.  Maybe soon it will be admitted that the vaccination plan must
change.  Or maybe not.

Omicron might change all that: for the better or for the worse.

For the worse it might change it in that it could create bigger, more
and longer lockdwons everywhere, not just Austria.  Because lockdowns is
the only thing proven to work.

For the better, omicron might change covid pandemics if it proves to
'kill' delta and at the same time not send people to hospital.  It might
be a 'saviour'.  Or that might be just an illusion of these days.
A paper I read suggests that UK experience in omicron is that omicron is
not worse but not better than delta either, with respect to sending
people to hospital.  That paper says they cant say more and more data
i.e. more time is needed to think.

Bill Gates and WHO head said in Decemner they hope 2022 ends the
pandemics, or that we have to make it end in 2022, or something like
that.  It's a sort of wish to tell others during New YEar's Eve.
Earlier Bill Gates also said 640k was enough for all and WHO also said
at some point that frontiers should not close.   So it is not sure what
to trust.

That is what I think about Austria and IETF in March - a complete unknown.

Alex

Le 22/12/2021 à 15:44, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit :
> -------- Message transféré -------- Sujet : 	IETF 113 will be a 
> hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria Date : 	Wed, 22 Dec 
> 2021 14:41:52 +1300 De : 	IETF Executive Director 
> <[email-masked]> Répondre à : 	[email-masked] Pour : 
> IETF Announcement List <[email-masked]>
> 
> 
> 
> IETF 113 will be held as a hybrid onsite/online meeting with the 
> onsite element in Vienna, Austria at the Hilton Vienna Park from 
> 19-25 March 2022. This is a location change from the originally 
> planned Bangkok, Thailand.
> 
> 
> # Decision making
> 
> considered the current circumstances, the desire of the community
> and the guidance of the IESG to answer a series of questions:
> 
> We believe that it is now possible to hold an international meeting, 
> as has been shown by the recent IGF meeting among others, provided 
> that sensible precautions are taken and that the chosen venue has 
> clear and workable rules. Austria has clear and workable rules for 
> entry into the country and conferences and restaurants. Clearly, the 
> omicron variant is quickly spreading and some countries are 
> responding to that with lockdowns and other restrictions. However,
> we are willing to take the risk that this will be sufficiently
> managed by the time of the meeting that it can go ahead.
> 
> 
> We believe that it is acceptably safe to hold an international 
> meeting. COVID-19 is now endemic in most countries and the 
> mitigations and precautions are well understood and practised. 
> Austria in particular has strict rules regarding entry to the
> country and in-country movement, excellent access to tests and
> strict controls on the unvaccinated.
> 
> access to vaccines, including a booster shot. Unvaccinated people 
> will not be able to enter the country or participate onsite at the 
> meeting, and the IESG has advised that this exclusion of
> unvaccinated people should not be considered discriminatory.
> 
> The US State Dept currently rates Austria at "level 4 - do not 
> travel", but sufficient numbers of staff, contractors and supporting 
> volunteers are willing to travel despite this that we are wiling to 
> take the risk.
> 
> 
> 3. Is it viable to hold an onsite meeting and what will the 
> experience be for both those onsite and those online?
> 
> The IESG has advised that a meeting of approximately 50% the size of 
> a normal in person meeting (~500 people) is acceptable. We cannot be 
> those who choose not to travel will be minimised. The IESG is 
> planning a shorter working day similar to fully online meetings and 
> new technology is being provided by Meetecho to provide a more 
> integrated session experience.
> 
> strong force majeure cancellation clause and a strong 
> cancel-and-rebook clause.
> 
> Many in our community want to meet in person again and believe that 
> the risk in doing so is acceptable and we believe that supporting 
> this is the right thing to do. Moving back to normal meetings will 
> inevitably take multiple steps and this is the first of those.
> 
> We are well aware that some will regard this as the wrong decision 
> given the risks to personal safety involved. However as nobody is 
> required to participate in person (that includes staff, contractors 
> and supporting volunteers), nor should any participants feel
> pressure to be onsite, we believe that we are finding the correct
> balance between personal choice, personal safety and meeting
> experience.
> 
> The formal assessment is 
Finally, just to note: as this decision is being made with less than
> 14 weeks to go until the meeting, this qualifies as an emergency 
> situation under RFC 9137 and so this decision has been made without 
> community consultation.
> 
> 
> # Registrations
> 
> registration system and sorted out European VAT. At that time we
> will provide details of what to expect both in travelling and our
> onsite COVID-management practises so that you can make an informed 
> decision. Registration fees will be the same for onsite
> participation as they have been previously.
> 
> 
> If you have any questions or wish to discuss this further then
> please either reply to [email-masked] or directly to me at 
> [email-masked]
> 
> Jay
> 
> 
> -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director [email-masked]
> 
> _______________________________________________ IETF-Announce
> mailing list [email-masked] 
> _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing 
> list [email-masked] 
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches

---

From: Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 21:29:20 +0100

> Austria has clear and workable rules for entry into the country and 
> conferences and restaurants.

I think either one is not knowing what one is talking about, or one is
risked into being 'fooled'(?) by some information, or maybe we live in
different metaverses where there is Austria and Austria :-)

If that were true: Austria has clear rules ok which stop the thing,e tc,
do you think other country would not do the same at a moment notice?

Austria came up with these QR codes a few months ago.  Everyone
replicated.  Now it's being challenged: too many conditions 3, there
should be just one, but which one?  It is under discussion.  We dont
know what it will give.

We already thought in the recent past that the Austria covid rules were
better than others, but it was not that way, unfortunately.

[...]

> However as nobody is required to participate in person (that includes
> staff, contractors and supporting volunteers), nor should any
> participants feel pressure to be onsite, we believe that we are 
> finding the correct balance between personal choice, personal safety
>  and meeting experience.

I think this is so old thinking, pre-covid times.

In these pre-covid times we did not know how much inter-related are we
one to another.  We imagined that a person in Austria would have no
impact to a person in Kansas, or that a person in Wuhan would not impact
me in France.  Yet, and yet, and still,  I must worry now once every 4
months if I feel a fever - is it a side effect of vaccine or is it the
virus?  That is the effect of a person there to me here.  But now we know.

In the old pre-covid times we thought that if someone could not join the
in-person meeting there would be no problem, and that person could join
online.  This old way of thinking is prolongated, wrongly.
The new way of thinking, during covid times, should be this: if a person
cant join online then her travel should be paid to the nearest other
place online and the price of the masks and separating plexiglass.

Moreover, in these pre-covid times, because of the two aspects mentioned
above, I wonder this to myself: should I participate online to an IETF
meeting which has an in-person part whose covid rules are delegated to
an unknown authority?  Remember, a person in Austria spreading to
anoother person in Austria also impacts me, even if I am online in
another country.

What are the detail Austria rules about covid-times meetings?  Do they
consider ventilation?

I will not use the word 'caution' (should I 'caution' this with my
participation)?  Because I am not sure of the word 'caution'.

But I am almost sure I want to reduce to a minimum the number of
physical interactions to others.  That includes minimum things
absolutely necessary for immediate well being.

This is why, for me, at this time, I think I might not participate to
the next IETF meeting eve if online, and even if paid: I dont want to
participate into something that risks to propagate the virus.  There is
no guarantee whatsoever.

Alex
> Registration fees will be the same for onsite participation as they
> have been previously.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ IETF-Announce mailing
> list [email-masked]

---

From: Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 22:10:26 +0100

I think there is a need of advice from a scientific panel about this, 
but this is what I think.

I went firsthand through this experience so I can talk about it.

[...]
> workable rules.

Has the virus spread at IGF?

It is not possible to state that confidently right now, because of the
following:

- all should have been tested on arrival and at departure.  I understand
testing was available under voluntary conditions, not mandatory, at IGF.

- the last test (at departure) is actually a double test: one at time X
and one at 7 days later.  Only the combined result of the two tells
whether or not there is positivity.

I think none of these conditions are satisfied for IGF.

Or maybe is there a statement from IGF that the virus was not spread?

As such, I think the above assumptions of sensible precautions at IGF
are simply not trustable.

Alex

  Austria has clear and workable rules for entry into the
> Manycouches mailing list
> [email-masked]

---

From: Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 10:33:50 +0100

the paper about omicron hospital risk was published today: there is risk 
reduction.

Le 22/12/2021 à 17:44, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit :
>> <[email-masked]> Répondre à :     [email-masked] Pour 
>> : IETF Announcement List <[email-masked]>
>>
>>
>>
>> onsite element in Vienna, Austria at the Hilton Vienna Park from 19-25 
>> March 2022. This is a location change from the originally planned 
>> Bangkok, Thailand.
>>
>>
>> # Decision making
>>
>> omicron variant is quickly spreading and some countries are responding 
>> to that with lockdowns and other restrictions. However,
>> meeting. COVID-19 is now endemic in most countries and the mitigations 
>> and precautions are well understood and practised. Austria in 
>> particular has strict rules regarding entry to the
>> and the IESG has advised that this exclusion of
>> those who choose not to travel will be minimised. The IESG is planning 
>> a shorter working day similar to fully online meetings and new 
>> technology is being provided by Meetecho to provide a more integrated 
>> session experience.
>>
>> the risk in doing so is acceptable and we believe that supporting this 
>> is the right thing to do. Moving back to normal meetings will

---

From: Andrew Campling <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 23:46:01 +0000

On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 at 14:41:52 IETF Executive Director <[email-masked]><mailto:[email-masked]> wrote:

> IETF 113 will be held as a hybrid onsite/online meeting with the onsite element in Vienna, Austria at the Hilton Vienna Park from 19-25 March 2022. This is a location change from the originally planned Bangkok, Thailand.

I wonder whether there is input from this mailing list that the LLC team would find useful?  I think it would be beneficial to focus on providing community input on any aspects of the hybrid event that would improve the experience for both in-person and remote attendees rather than second-guessing the decision-making process, especially given the detail already provided on the latter.

Andrew

---

From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 19:20:36 -0500

Andrew Campling <[email-masked]> wrote:
    > I wonder whether there is input from this mailing list that the LLC
    > team would find useful?  I think it would be beneficial to focus on
    > providing community input on any aspects of the hybrid event that would
    > improve the experience for both in-person and remote attendees rather
    > than second-guessing the decision-making process, especially given the
    > detail already provided on the latter.

Vienna in March is apparently above zero, and may be as high as 10C.
Outdoor Biergartens would seem to be a good thing if allowed.
This is even more true for Philadephia in July.

The last Vienna meeting was in 2003, at a facility that was very hostile to
informal gatherings, (with little to no nearby hotels).
There is a lot of stuff in meeting criteria document about that event and
other ones like it.

We seem to be meeting at a big hotel this time, so this shouldn't as much of
as issue.

I tried to price renting a Double https://www.doublerobotics.com/ a few years
ago (before pandemic) for a funeral I couldn't get to.  I didn't go through
with it, as there was nothing available.  I know that we've seen a few of
these at IETF meetings in the past, and there are some privacy/awareness
issues in my opinion.
It might beyond individuals to book, and beyond the LLC to provide for this.

What might work is having a variety of nooks where there is a non-moving
interface, perhaps logged into gather.town.  I'm not sure how well it would
work, I would be happy to actually try this out.

At this point, I plan to travel.  It looks like I can get a direct flight
from Montreal if I press the right buttons on austrian.com (It wasn't easy!).

I would normally fly to AMS and take a train with some side trips, but I'm
concerned that the rules will change on me, and I'll find myself trying to
find a new PCR test at some Schengen-internal border.

I have been living with two hand made cloth masks since April 2020.
(One is just worn out, the nose wire inside broke...), with some disposable
ones.  Wearing glasses with these masks for long times is not comfortable for
me: a solveable problem, but working at home, I haven't solved it yet.
I can walk through the grocery store without my glasses if I try.

I will need to obtain FFP2 masks that will fit me to attend.
We could have an entire thread on that if people like.

--
Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>   . o O ( IPv6 IøT consulting )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide

---

From: Jay Daley <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 13:35:06 +1300

Andrew

> On 24/12/2021, at 12:46 PM, Andrew Campling <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 at 14:41:52 IETF Executive Director <[email-masked]> wrote:
>  

We previously consulted on this [1] and while there was much discussion, not much of it was relevant and it appeared that few people had read our proposed conditional plan [2], which sets out the various measures we might take.  There have been two changes to that plan since then:

- One was based on strong feedback that unvaccinated people should not be permitted to participate in-person, has now been agreed to in principle.  
- The other comes from the experiences of IETF’rs who participated in some Linux Foundation events and particularly appreciated the coloured wrist bands used to indicate comfort with social discancing, which we are looking to incorporate some how

We are still working on the specifics of how infection control and mitigation will work during the meeting and would still appreciate feedback on the rest of that plan as that is basically the flowchart from which the specifics for 113 will be derived.

cheers
Jay

[1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/R-1NLlYaYrZ7ldFZ0oPQWCFKfZg/
[2] https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/Conditional_plan_for_IETF_meetings_in_COVID-impacted_venues.pdf

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
[email-masked]

---

From: Jay Daley <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 13:38:17 +1300

> On 24/12/2021, at 1:35 PM, Jay Daley <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> Andrew
> 

*not* relevant.

Jay

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
[email-masked]

---

From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 21:09:00 -0500

Jay Daley <[email-masked]> wrote:
    > few people had read our proposed conditional plan [2], which sets out
    > the various measures we might take.

I recall browsing it at the time, and I couldn't see anything that I had any
expertise to comment on :-)

    >> [2] https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/Conditional_plan_for_IETF_meetings_in_COVID-impacted_venues.pdf

Looking again I note that the idea of doing stuff outside is there already.
(I now wonder if I'll find enough food that is compatible with me.)

---

From: Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 14:46:43 +0100

Jay:

> We are still working on the specifics of how infection control and mitigation will work during the meeting and would still appreciate feedback on the rest of that plan as that is basically the flow…

There are probably also some procedural protocols that can also be 
learnt from the recent IGF, but I'm afraid to have to say that the 
Omicron variant is likely to change a lot of these parameters. 
Colleagues in London are confirming first hand that the contagion level 
is unprecedented.
Kindest regards,

Olivier

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 09:04:41 -0800

I find myself wondering what Austria thinks about all this. When my wife visited a few months ago, I looked up vaccination requirements, and Austria seems think that vaccinations expire in 270 days. By that rubric, I’ll be fine in March, but would need a fourth dose for a June meeting. I’m unaware of any science behind this, and a little mystified by the entire logic.

Sent using a machine that autocorrects in interesting ways...

> On Dec 24, 2021, at 5:47 AM, Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> There are probably also some procedural protocols that can also be learnt from the recent IGF, but I'm afraid to have to say that the Omicron variant is likely to change a lot of these parameters. Colleagues in London are confirming first hand that the contagion level is unprecedented.

---

From: Behcet Sarikaya <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 11:15:45 -0600

Hi Jay,

Holding March meeting in Vienna is a good decision, I support it.

Behcet

On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 6:35 PM Jay Daley <[email-masked]> wrote:

> March 2022. This is a location change from the originally planned Bangkok,
> Thailand.
> >
> > I wonder whether there is input from this mailing list that the LLC team
> would find useful?  I think it would be beneficial to focus on providing
> community input on any aspects of the hybrid event that would improve the
> experience for both in-person and remote attendees rather than
> second-guessing the decision-making process, especially given the detail
> already provided on the latter.
>
> We previously consulted on this [1] and while there was much discussion,
> not much of it was relevant and it appeared that few people had read our
> proposed conditional plan [2], which sets out the various measures we might
> take.  There have been two changes to that plan since then:
>
> - One was based on strong feedback that unvaccinated people should not be
> permitted to participate in-person, has now been agreed to in principle.
> - The other comes from the experiences of IETF’rs who participated in some
> Linux Foundation events and particularly appreciated the coloured wrist
> bands used to indicate comfort with social discancing, which we are looking
> to incorporate some how
>
> We are still working on the specifics of how infection control and
> mitigation will work during the meeting and would still appreciate feedback
> on the rest of that plan as that is basically the flowchart from which the
> specifics for 113 will be derived.
>
> cheers
> Jay
>
> [1]
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/R-1NLlYaYrZ7ldFZ0oPQWCFKfZg/
> [2]
> https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/Conditional_plan_for_IETF_meetings_in_COVID-impacted_venues.pdf
> >
> >
> > Andrew
>
> --
> Jay Daley
> IETF Executive Director
> [email-masked]
>

---

From: Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 23:46:21 +0100

Le 24/12/2021 à 18:04, Fred Baker a écrit :
> I find myself wondering what Austria thinks about all this. When my 
> wife visited a few months ago, I looked up vaccination requirements, 
> and Austria seems think that vaccinations expire in 270 days. By
> that rubric, I’ll be fine in March, but would need a fourth dose for
> a June meeting. I’m unaware of any science behind this, and a little 
> mystified by the entire logic.

I dont know about Austria.

But I know me advising all around me to plan right now for the next dose
in 3 months time.  I got my 3rd recently and I will click regularly on
on the URL to check when bookings are open so I can get my 4th dose in
March, hopefully 3 months after my 3rd.  And so on every 3 months during
2022.

Why?  Because the local HAS (Haute Autorité de la Santé, high authority
of health) says 3 months is best.  They said so today.  Until today they
said differently.  They said first 7 months, then they said 6 months,
then they said 4 months.

Also because I learn 2bn doses were already ordered in Europe.  The
source of this info is a printed news paper.

270days (9month) Austria expiration time of a dose is probably an old
info that would probably be modified soon.  It would be strange an EU
country thinks different than another, in this respect.  IT would be
strange that _any_ country to think differently, because we are all homo
sapiens, in whatever country.  But I should ask Austrians.

There are other infos that circulated recently from people with
reputation: it was said that 3rd dose would be last.  Is that still
true?  I will know that at latest in March.

About the science of this.  I am not a medical person, but this is what
I he.ard  Immunity is a pair of two things: cell memory immunity, and
antibodies.  The first cant be measured and is not understood, but it
works when it works.  The second can be measured in a blood sample.
Both help one to fight the virus, it is an AND.  Whatever we know about
the second (the antibodies) can be nullified by the first: one can have
no antibodies and still kill viruses, we dont know why.  But if we have
many antibodies then we are sure to fight well.  The curve of antibody
depletion after dose is an asymptotical; it was measured - statistically
- among many people, and they came up with this 7 month number.  But in
an asymptotical there is certainly not just one number, but several (the
fall is not a dirac signal, nor a rectangular on-off signal).  Also,
that common curve is not my curve - it is a statistic mean of many
people, just like the weight of newborn babies: some cruise above
whereas others swim below.   I dont know mine precisely.

Also, I am told by person I trust when we talk Comp. Sci. is that this
vaccine generates something that stays in the body for a long time,
hence he does not vaccinate, independently of 3, 4, 5, 6 or 7 month
spacing between doses.  Just hold on to it as much as possible: not
travel, not see anyone, mask all the time, etc.

Alex

>> Colleagues in London are confirming first hand that the contagion 
>> level is unprecedented.
>

---

From: Vittorio Bertola <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 11:35:59 +0100 (CET)

> Il 24/12/2021 18:04 Fred Baker <[email-masked]> ha scritto:
>  

The deadline is likely to be brought down to 180 days everywhere in Europe (in fact in Italy it already was, three days ago). The science behind this is the preliminary data from the UK on the effectiveness of current vaccines against Omicron, notably the table on page 14 of Report #48: 

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/mrc-global-infectious-disease-analysis/covid-19/report-48-global-omicron/

Data seem to suggest that boosters might be necessary every 3-4 months, with six months possibly staying - for organizational reasons - as the maximum deadline after which you lose your sanitary pass. 

-- 
Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
[email-masked] 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy

---

From: Behcet Sarikaya <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 10:08:47 -0600

> travel, not see anyone, mask all the time, etc.
Alex, in the US there is no 4th dose requirement as of now.
They said no special vaccine is mandated for Omicron. Actually Omicron
seems to spread very fast but it does not make you very sick, kind of a
light flu, I know that from my relatives who got it.

So right now so many people, sports celebrities, etc have caught Omicron,
they just isolate themselves until they test negative.

So for Austria's 9 month requirement, for me it is OK, I  believe for
almost everyone in the US it will be OK because 3rd dose or the booster
dose started in October-November 2021, giving enough window of at least 9
months.

Behcet

---

From: Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 18:46:41 +0100

Le 27/12/2021 à 17:08, Behcet Sarikaya a écrit :
> 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 4:46 PM Alexandre Petrescu 
> <[email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> I find myself wondering what Austria thinks about all this. When
>> my wife visited a few months ago, I looked up vaccination
>> requirements, and Austria seems think that vaccinations expire in
>> 270 days. By that rubric, I’ll be fine in March, but would need a
>> fourth dose for a June meeting. I’m unaware of any science behind
>> this, and a little mystified by the entire logic.
> 
> But I know me advising all around me to plan right now for the next
> dose in 3 months time.  I got my 3rd recently and I will click
> regularly on on the URL to check when bookings are open so I can get
> my 4th dose in March, hopefully 3 months after my 3rd.  And so on
> every 3 months during 2022.
> 
> Why?  Because the local HAS (Haute Autorité de la Santé, high
> authority of health) says 3 months is best.  They said so today.
> Until today they said differently.  They said first 7 months, then
> they said 6 months, then they said 4 months.
> 
> 270days (9month) Austria expiration time of a dose is probably an
> old info that would probably be modified soon.  It would be strange
> an EU country thinks different than another, in this respect.  IT
> would be strange that _any_ country to think differently, because we
> are all homo sapiens, in whatever country.  But I should ask
> Austrians.
> 
> About the science of this.  I am not a medical person, but this is
> what I he.ard  Immunity is a pair of two things: cell memory
> immunity, and antibodies.  The first cant be measured and is not
> understood, but it works when it works.  The second can be measured
> in a blood sample. Both help one to fight the virus, it is an AND.
> Whatever we know about the second (the antibodies) can be nullified
> by the first: one can have no antibodies and still kill viruses, we
> dont know why.  But if we have many antibodies then we are sure to
> fight well.  The curve of antibody depletion after dose is an
> asymptotical; it was measured - statistically - among many people,
> and they came up with this 7 month number.  But in an asymptotical
> there is certainly not just one number, but several (the fall is not
> a dirac signal, nor a rectangular on-off signal).  Also, that common
> curve is not my curve - it is a statistic mean of many people, just
> like the weight of newborn babies: some cruise above whereas others
> swim below.   I dont know mine precisely.
> 
> Also, I am told by person I trust when we talk Comp. Sci. is that
> this vaccine generates something that stays in the body for a long
> time, hence he does not vaccinate, independently of 3, 4, 5, 6 or 7
> month spacing between doses.  Just hold on to it as much as possible:
> not travel, not see anyone, mask all the time, etc.
> 
> 
> Alex, in the US there is no 4th dose requirement as of now. They said
> no special vaccine is mandated for Omicron. Actually Omicron seems to
> spread very fast but it does not make you very sick, kind of a light
> flu, I know that from my relatives who got it.

Thanks for the experience.  It is good to know, I set it aside.

For info, I learned today a 2-dose vaccinated 41yr person close to me,
here got the omicron too, but spent 3 days at hospital under respiratory
(not intube in throat) and now she's back to work.  It all happened
entirely in December, very fast.

Still her smell and taste are not back, and it represents a risk to her
work, but at least she can work.

> So right now so many people, sports celebrities, etc have caught 
> Omicron, they just isolate themselves until they test negative.

Ah?  I wish them the best.

I hear too that there are so many cases that it falls equally probably
on flight personnel (cabin, pilots, et) so they cancel flights, so
flightaware says.

>  almost everyone in the US it will be OK because 3rd dose or the
> booster dose started in October-November 2021, giving enough window
> of at least 9 months.

Hmm, it is ok to think that way too.

I also read recently that the person inventor of Pfizer shot said 3 are
necessary against omicron, that today Israel starts 4th dose to 60yr+
and doctors in contact.  On the contrary, there is said also
that some scientists talk about a potential 'fatigue' of immunity
systems when presented with too many doses.

It is also said that might be that omicron wave goes very high and ends
very soon.

Or not.

The question is of course about the relevance of this kind of discussion
in this group, to the organisiation of IETF hybrid-or-not meetings.

I admit the following, before others tell me I should, sorry:

- it might be that the entire discussion here is irrelevant, and hte WG
is irrelevant altogether.  This kind of discussion is in a scientific
panel of a decision body, not in a WG at IETF.

- it might be that the IETF decision making bodies need inputs, but it
is not clear how they want that inputs and by which channel.  It is not
clear whether a scientific panel more dedicated to these medical aspects
might be necessary.

- it is not clear whether we want these discussions public or private.

- there is a high risk of deviation of discussion into extreme points of
view: vaxx, anti-, collapsology and so on.  At IETF we are used with
these proportions, but still there is a risk.  Sorry about that!

Alex

>>> On Dec 24, 2021, at 5:47 AM, Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond 
>>> <[email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> There are probably also some procedural protocols that can also
>>> be learnt from the recent IGF, but I'm afraid to have to say that
>>> the Omicron variant is likely to change a lot of these
>>> parameters. Colleagues in London are confirming first hand that
>>> the contagion level is unprecedented.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________ Manycouches
>> mailing list [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]> 
> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches>
> 
> list [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]> 
> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches>
>

---

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 08:45:20 +1300

On 28-Dec-21 05:08, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:
...
> They said no special vaccine is mandated for Omicron. Actually Omicron seems to spread very fast but it does not make you very sick, kind of a light flu, I know that from my relatives who got it.

Except for the people who get seriously ill or die from it. With an increased probability of infection mutiplied by a reduced probability of serious illness or death, I think it is very complacent to dismiss it in the same terms that idiots like Bolsonaro used, at least for people in one of the high risk groups.

Also if you read the "Report 48" study that Vittorio cited, you will see that additional booster doses are in discussion, and that an Omicron-specific vaccine is very likely to be developed.

The science changes every day. I don't think I'd want to risk a non-refundable air fare these days.

     Brian