Subject: RE: DEPLOY: Legal liability for creating bounces from forged mess ages

From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:16:46 -0700

> Sorry for the typo, that should read:
> Wrong.  When you bounce it <NOT> knowing the validity of the 
> bounce recipient you have less liability then if you bounce 
> it KNOWING that the bounce 
> recipient is invalid.

Where is the Mens Rea?

The UK obscene publications act is a criminal offense, the issue is
whether the action is criminal, not whether there is a civil liability.

What the computer 'knows' is not relevant to Mens Rea, only individuals
and corporations are subject to criminal law. 

The last time an animal was prosecuted under English common law was
when the citizens of Sunderland hung a monkey as a spy during the 
Napoleonic wars. The only occasion I am aware of in which an inanimate
object was put on trial was before the Norman Conquest when a statue
of the Virgin Mary was convicted of murder and is believed to lie in a
grave that can be seen from my parent's house.

Sure you can find some really obscure offenses if you dredge up obscure
parts of English law. That does not mean that there is the slightest
chance that a Home Secretary is ever going to allow a prosecution.

---

From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 15:03:05 -0400

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hallam-Baker, Phillip [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 2:17 PM
> To: [email-masked]'; Hallam-Baker, Phillip;
> 'Chris Haynes';
> 'IETF MARID WG'
> Subject: RE: DEPLOY: Legal liability for creating bounces from forged
> messages
>
>
>
KNOWING that:
1)  the email is bad
2)  the recipient of the bounce was not valid
3)  sending the bounce message anyway

> and corporations are subject to criminal law.

Wrong.  If what you say is true then I could create a computer program that creates/collects illegal
material (credit cards, kiddie porn, whatever) and because it is the computer that is doing the work
I am not criminally liable.

> grave that can be seen from my parent's house.

Your being silly.  If someone uses a knife or gun to commit the crime, the justice system prosecutes
the person.  The computer is just another such tool.

> chance that a Home Secretary is ever going to allow a prosecution.

But we are not talking obscure.  Porn and Phishing are serious criminal offences perpetrated every
day on the internet using the SMTP protocol.

And FYI the internet is not just for the UK.