Subject: mboned: Draft minutes of mboned session in Montreal

From: Hiroshi Ohta <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 15:25:17 +0900

All,

Below is the draft minutes.  If you have any comment, please 
respond to the list by the end of the next week (i.e., Aug. 18).

Thank you.

Hiroshi

----------------------

-opened at 9:04
-jzwiebel appointed scribe
-agenda bashing, Marshall has trouble figuring out how to talk
        into the microphone
-AD eval is proceeding "fine"
-last-call issued on RAC
-active drafts on agenda
-need to talk about rechartering
-Pekka presents on routing arch.
  - 3 reviews (1 cross-area), of 03,
    reference to address architecture
    mobility impacts
  - moving on to 04
    added summary tables after sections, reviewing summaries
    intro on how protos fit together.
    Forwarding protocols
    changed bi-dir status to be more positive (because already being deployed successfully in some enterprises) 
  - trying to figure out what to say about PIM dense-mode
  - toplogy diagrams
    BGP (add line for BGP w/o SAFI)
    - comment Jerome: SAFI 1 and SAFI maybe should be separate
    - Toerless: legacy BGP don't use SAFI, good to spell out more details, detail for SAFI1 SAFI2, legacy BGP, wants 3 lines. w/o: 1 : 2
  - learning sources
    thinks PIM-SM w/ embedded RP is best
    comment: saying best solution doesnt alway work isnt good only interdomain solution with v4 is --- but doesnt work so well
    comment: that is too strong a solution, "don't work" is too strong
    comment: what is purpose of slide
    purpose it to convey the MSDP  isn't a great solution
    comment: why? it works, it has limitations, is totally functional in a certain context. 
    Dino doesn't like "bad fit" too negative for MSDP.
    Pekka needs to look at it and sound more positive for political  
purposes.
  - Marshall: many limitations have been dealt with
    How many commercial operators are using MSDP?
    Marshall: many
     Dino: dont want to send wrong message that this is only a research project... there are production level systems that are using this.
    Pekka: MSDP in this slide is interdomain
    Toerless: (need to get) many applications in IPTV
RP Configuration
-enterprises seem to have more auto-rp/ BSR
-no comments
  - RP configuration
    Lenny doesn't like auto-RP/BSR wants it to be more 'harsh'
    need to add 'static RP'
  - RP redundancy
    comment: should mention static config
    already discussed in text
    shep wants to remove anycast from configuration slide to just here.

  - host interactions
    z wants note on RTS/CTS, dino doesn't
    recommendation from floor, but told to take to rechartering discussion
  - flooding
    Toerless wanted explanation of R-to-R vs LAN and wants
    PIM snooping removed from LAN column.
    Cisco's RGMP replaced by PIM snooping

   question: meaning of R-R and LAN columns?
   -will revise

-Tom P talked about AMT
  - look at URL to see what changed
  [http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/mboned-4.pdf]
  - added hints about how to refresh
  - IANA section: getting /16 not realistic so changed to /18
  - preventing spoofing in the AMT data message
  - Pekka commented on spoofing possibilities wants it to be "MUST", need to make requirement more clear
  - Tom's open source no longer matches spec.  Who wants to do it? looking for someone to take over implementation

-Dino talked about cisco implemenation of AMT
   [http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/mboned-2/sld1.htm]
  - 3 implentations. Tom Pusateri (open, Pusateri); Dave Thaler, Microsoft(05); Dino, Cisco(06)
  - Tom's relay works on Linux, but not the gateway.
  - 154.17/16 used as anycast
  - will be on 3 Cisco OS.
  - wants 2byte header reduction.
  - Cisco AMT implementation, by next IETF, interoperability with FreeBSD and Microsoft implementation based on -06 drsft, get box to microsoft
  - close on IANA assigning anycast prefix
  - Confusion on what anycast address to use in the mean time.
    Needs an AS number to work.
  - issue that may not be able to IANA address until this is RFC
  - Dave Thaler-- not an issue because checksum being done at different level
  - Pekka wants UDP header checksum.  Dino says it isn't practical.
    thayer say, it isn't worth dealing with.  Will it get past the  
IESG?
  - Pekka is concerned about using the 6to4 prefix, but has no option.
    Marshall says he'll find one.
  - Tom says we could use the relay AS, Pekka agrees.  Shep says its
    bad juju.  Lots of wonderment.  Pekka says 6to4 deals with this.
    Discussion about moving to 32-bit AS.  Shep says, Path would  
give you
    the source.  BGP purists will not like it.  Building route filters
    for the multiple AS will have problems but it can be dealt with.
  - Jean, any ISPs interested in this?  dino says large data centers
    'blah-blah-blah' are intrigued.  Shep says content owners are very
    interested.  Parallel file updates.  IP video deployments.
  - Joel says AMT is to address gap caused by ISPs.  Dino explained its
    a way of pushing multicast to the edge.  Pekka says transit  
providers
    will like it because it will cause more traffic to be sent to their
    customers.
-Sato, RAC 
  [ http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/mboned-6/sld1.htm] 
   No comments.  The proposal was to merge with AAA, and it  
passed with no objects, OK to merge
-Sato AAA draft
  - listed changes in this draft.
  -ASM question
  - Sato: independent of ASM/ SSM currently, won't work with ASM tunnel
  - Marshall wanted to know is this theory or implementation.  Sato  
says there are no implemenations, but NTT will be doing it when the  
draft is mature.
  - Marshall asked will it be propiretary or open.
  - Sato first step is proprietary mechanism but goal is standard
McWalter: MIB
   - little change from last IETF, 2 changes, some additional statistics
   - reviewed by Pekka
   - waiting to make sure no changes are necessary due to PIM
   - toerless, scopes and zones question.  Wanted to know about  
restrictions
    on scopes
  - dino, RPF drop counter question are DF failure drops part of  
this same
    counter.
  - Marshall says 'its been around' so moving to last-call.
Wei: igmpv3 lite.  'liu'
  - Excellent ppt summary
   [http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/mboned-0/sld1.htm]
   -applies to IGMPV2 and 3
   -IGMPv2MLDv3 is complex, some functionality not used so much
lite and full version should work together
  - question on whether or not it is worth changing host  
implementations
  - z said excellent summary, but we should just do it as a BCP on the
    router to remove the 'exclude filter mode'
  - z said if we're going to simplify it, go even further and do
    just block and allow.  Marshall asked if it would interoperate,
    z said it needs more study but not a problem in general.
  - Toerless said Cisco said IGMPv3-lite was already in use so  
change the name.  Can we do a RFC on a subset of an RFC.  Marshall says  
some say yes,     others say no.
  - Open Issues
    -going further on host side if necessary
    - reducing nmore meesage type if appropriate
  - Marshall: Magma is going away, mailing list alive but new protocols arent working on
  - Brian supported BCP.
  - Marshall says AD said MBONED could move forward.
  - Marshall: other issue is issuing a partial protocol, Marshall fully supports BCP, could also be informational.
  - Brian says 'informational document'.
  - Lenny wants to restate the problem.  Specifically settop boxes, settop boxes often dont yet support IGMPv2.. therefore valuable to implement easier solution, supports effort at BCP
  - Marshall "what can you drop safely".  Lenny wants BCP to simplify.
  - Toerless wants to focus on SSM if we simplify
  - Marshall will present to the list as a BCP.

Koch: mcast.net issues
  -what is maintenance policy for mcast.net DNS zone?
  - most of the ip addresses exist
  - multicast and DNS intersections.  Where is it homed?  It seems  
to be a problem.  There is no policy.
  - Joel suggests that mcast.net isn't useful to him any longer.
  - toerless says ssm-translation is used, but... it isn't that useful
    all the time.  Marshall wanted a written description but Toerless say  they don't exist.  It's not standardized.
  - Simon Leinen: likes to see the names in "netstat" output.
  - Marshall: IANA occassionally allocates new addresses.
  - Marshall: you can do your own multicast address in an A record.
    Peter, but it wouldn't be consistent.
  - Toerless thinks its helpful         
  - Marshall suggests this is going to be painful to figure out.
    <collective sigh.
  - Joel, the maintainter is going to get a lot of email.  And he  
doesn't
    want it.
  - Dino wants to keep it.
  - Marshall outlined the long process that its going to take.
  - Dino said you can't arbitrarily grab an address and put it into  
your
    company domain because it won't be global.
  - Joel wanted to know what IANA needs, Marshall says an RFC (to clean
    out the old cruft.)
  - Tom wanted to put AMT in here.
  - Summary, 'something' is going to happen.  It won't get thrown out.
   
Charter Discussion.
  -not much discussion on mailing list
  - keep old items?
  - or new items? (some are already in RFC queue)
  - newly discussed items
[ http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/mboned-8/sld1.htm]
	SSM
	IPTV (collaborate eith ITU-T IPTV-FG)
	- IPTV standards
	- Operator Survey
	AMT
	Muticast AAA work
	Multicast Number Registry
	- port regis
	- address regis
	IGMPv4/MLDv2- Lite

  - Lenny wants to see "what are we going to do" vs "what have we done"
    Better direction for people outside of the group. wants group to encourage more deployment of mcast (not just documenting what have done)
  - Toerless wants to have clear guidelines on mboned's ownership of protocol work
  - Marshall is going to send out another *NOG poll
  - Pekka says his docs meet lenny's desires.
  - John wanted a Source Discovery method, a central regrstry.
    Marshall agreed.  He's using RSS.
  - Dino.  He wants protocol development to be included in MBONED.
    Marshall said it would be OK with him.
  - John Buefard.  Thurs Scalable Multicast.  Charter will intersect.
    SAM.  Marshall doesn't "get it" yet.  Wants to know if John will  
use
    MBONED tools?  John: yes.  ALM.  Marshall, you can put AMT on host,
    so it could be considered an ALM.  Marshall, "SAM is reinventing  
the wheels".  John, "we should talk".
  -will need an IPTV BCP someday, including trouble shooting some other WG  - asking to interface

Shep is proud of these notes.
Dino agreed.
Dino said "Happy Birthday John".
Steve Rife reviewed the notes and agrees with both Dino and Shep that these are very good notes.

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