Subject: [Megaco] H.248.23 Enhanced Alerting Package.

From: "Dal Chohan" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:12:10 -0000

The description of the "Call Waiting" signal defined in H.248.23 specifies that call waiting patterns do not repeat - Is this correct?

I would have thought that for a Call Waiting service that it would would make perfect sense for the "call waiting" pattern to be repeatedly applied by the MG until it was told to stop the call waiting signal by the MGC (c.f. ringing) . It is the MGC that determines the interval within which the waiting call should be accepted and thus determines the overall duration of the call waiting pattern.

Dal Chohan

---

From: Raphael Tryster <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 18:26:53 +0200

Kevin Boyle answered this question recently:

Call wait patterns are generally replayed after a short amount of time (10
seconds in North America).  Note that this is not a repetition -- this is
actually a second distinct application of the signal.  There are several
feature scenarios where the second signal will not be applied -- if the
waiting party hangs up, or if the callee flashes, to name a couple.
 
As for the dt package, I believe the characterization of call wait tone as
timeout is erroneous, although previous attempts to fix it have been
rejected.  I wrote the alerting package to be local-variant unaware, leaving
it to the MG to be responsible for how the signals should be applied to its
terminations.  Note that most localities have more than one wait tone
pattern, to allow for assignable distinctive tones (similar to assigning
distinctive ringing patterns to different incoming callers).
 
I see no reason to use dt/cw if using alert/cw.  The alerting package
provides far more functionality than the dt package for both ringing and
call waiting.
 
Kevin

  _____  

	From: Raphael Tryster [mailto:[email-masked]]
<mailto:[mailto:[email-masked]]>  
	Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 5:39 AM
	To: Boyle, Kevin [NCRTP:3Z40:EXCH]; [email-masked]
<mailto:[email-masked]> 
	Subject: call waiting signal type

	In draft_boyle_megaco_alerting_03.txt, the alert/cw signal has type
brief, whereas the standard signal dt/cw apparently has type timeout.  Is
this a matter of national protocol?  The description of alert/cw says "Call
wait patterns do not repeat".  In Israel, a call waiting signal consists of
3 short tones, repeated once a few seconds later.

	If it is a matter of national protocol, does this mean that a
particular installation will use either alert/cw or dt/cw, but not both?

	Raphael Tryster 

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Dal Chohan [SMTP:[email-masked]]
	Sent:	Wednesday, 4 February 2004 18:12
	To:	[email-masked]
	Subject:	[Megaco] H.248.23 Enhanced Alerting Package.

	The description of the "Call Waiting" signal defined in H.248.23
specifies that call waiting patterns do not repeat - Is this correct?
	 
	I would have thought that for a Call Waiting service that it would
would make perfect sense for the "call waiting" pattern to be repeatedly
applied by the MG until it was told to stop the call waiting signal by the
MGC (c.f. ringing) . It is the MGC that determines the interval within which
the waiting call should be accepted and thus determines the overall duration
of the call waiting pattern.

	Dal Chohan

---

From: "Kevin Boyle" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 07:27:37 -0500

So, you would rather need two messages to play the tone once and one message
to play the tone twice?  That is incredibly non-intuitive.
 
Call wait generally has a very long interval between occurrences, and is
generally limited to two occurrences.  Ringing, on the other hand, does not
have a long interval (as compared to the length of the audible signal) and
is always applied indefinitely.  Further, the two examples I gave are just
that -- examples.  If you read the call waiting specifications, certain
feature interactions require only a single application of the call wait tone
as well.  These all lead to the conclusion that I stated earlier: Call wait
is a discrete signal applied multiple times.
 
Kevin

  _____  

From: Dal Chohan [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 4:18 AM
To: Raphael Tryster; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Megaco] H.248.23 Enhanced Alerting Package.

Raphael 
 
Thanks for the response -  but I don't see why the Call Waiting can't be
repeatedly applied just like ringing. If the Callee flashes, then the
detection of the event will stop the signal as per standard H.248 behaviour
and if the waiting party hangs up, then the MGC will instruct the MG to stop
applying the signal via a new signal descriptor.
 
Dal Chohan.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Raphael  <mailto:[email-masked]> Tryster 
To: 'Dal Chohan' <mailto:[email-masked]>  ; [email-masked]
<mailto:[email-masked]>  
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 4:26 PM
Subject: RE: [Megaco] H.248.23 Enhanced Alerting Package.

Kevin 

  _____  

	From: Raphael Tryster  <mailto:[mailto:[email-masked]]>
[mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 5:39 AM
To: Boyle, Kevin [NCRTP:3Z40:EXCH];  <mailto:[email-masked]>
[email-masked]
Subject: call waiting signal type

	Raphael Tryster 

	BM__MailData-----Original Message----- 
From:   Dal Chohan [SMTP:[email-masked]] 
Sent:   Wednesday, 4 February 2004 18:12 
To:     [email-masked] 
Subject:        [Megaco] H.248.23 Enhanced Alerting Package. 

The description of the "Call Waiting" signal defined in H.248.23 specifies
that call waiting patterns do not repeat - Is this correct?

I would have thought that for a Call Waiting service that it would would
make perfect sense for the "call waiting" pattern to be repeatedly applied
by the MG until it was told to stop the call waiting signal by the MGC (c.f.
ringing) . It is the MGC that determines the interval within which the
waiting call should be accepted and thus determines the overall duration of
the call waiting pattern.

  
Dal Chohan

_______________________________________________
Megaco mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/megaco

---

From: "Umesh Sharma" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 14:45:48 +0000

Hi,

Just to add specs says Call Waiting tone should be a 440 Hz tone applied for 300 +- 50 ms, talking path should be interrupted for a maximum of 400ms for the application of CW tone. If the controlling party does not flash or disconnect after FIRST burst of CW tone, a second burst should be applied 10 +- 1 seconds later (can go upto 30 ms in overload situation).  The behaviour could be different due to interactions with other services that a subscriber has subscribed to. Applying ringing continously will disturb the conversation going on.

Regards,

Umesh

>From: "Kevin Boyle" >To: Dal Chohan , Raphael Tryster , [email-masked] >Subject: RE: [Megaco] H.248.23 Enhanced Alerting Package. >Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 07:27:37 -0500 > >So, you would rather need two messages to play the tone once and one message >to play the tone twice? That is incredibly non-intuitive. > >Call wait generally has a very long interval between occurrences, and is >generally limited to two occurrences. Ringing, on the other hand, does not >have a long interval (as compared to the length of the audible signal) and >is always applied indefinitely. Further, the two examples I gave are just >that -- examples. If you read the call waiting specifications, certain >feature interactions require only a single application of the call wait tone >a!
s well. These all lead to the conclusion that I stated earlier: Call wait >is a discrete signal applied multiple times. > >Kevin > > > _____ > >From: Dal Chohan [mailto:[email-masked]] >Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 4:18 AM >To: Raphael Tryster; [email-masked] >Subject: Re: [Megaco] H.248.23 Enhanced Alerting Package. > > >Raphael > >Thanks for the response - but I don't see why the Call Waiting can't be >repeatedly applied just like ringing. If the Callee flashes, then the >detection of the event will stop the signal as per standard H.248 behaviour >and if the waiting party hangs up, then the MGC will instruct the MG to stop >applying the signal via a new signal descriptor. > >Dal Chohan. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Raphael Tryster >To: 'Dal Chohan' ; [email-masked] > >Sent: Wednesday, Febru!
ary 04, 2004 4:26 PM >Subject: RE: [Megaco] H.248.23 Enhanced Alert
ing Package. > > >Kevin Boyle answered this question recently: > > >Call wait patterns are generally replayed after a short amount of time (10 >seconds in North America). Note that this is not a repetition -- this is >actually a second distinct application of the signal. There are several >feature scenarios where the second signal will not be applied -- if the >waiting party hangs up, or if the callee flashes, to name a couple. > > >As for the dt package, I believe the characterization of call wait tone as >timeout is erroneous, although previous attempts to fix it have been >rejected. I wrote the alerting package to be local-variant unaware, leaving >it to the MG to be responsible for how the signals should be applied to its >terminations. Note that most localities have more than one wait tone >pattern, to allow for assignable distinctive tones (similar to assigning >distinctive ringing patterns to different incoming !
callers). > > >I see no reason to use dt/cw if using alert/cw. The alerting package >provides far more functionality than the dt package for both ringing and >call waiting. > > >Kevin > > > _____ > > > > From: Raphael Tryster >[mailto:[email-masked]] >Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 5:39 AM >To: Boyle, Kevin [NCRTP:3Z40:EXCH]; >[email-masked] >Subject: call waiting signal type > > > > In draft_boyle_megaco_alerting_03.txt, the alert/cw signal has type >brief, whereas the standard signal dt/cw apparently has type timeout. Is >this a matter of national protocol? The description of alert/cw says "Call >wait patterns do not repeat". In Israel, a call waiting signal consists of >3 short tones, repeated once a few seconds later. > > If it is a matter of national protocol, does this mean that a >particular installation will !
use either alert/cw or dt/cw, but not both? > > Raphael Tryster
> > > BM__MailData-----Original Message----- >From: Dal Chohan [SMTP:[email-masked]] >Sent: Wednesday, 4 February 2004 18:12 >To: [email-masked] >Subject: [Megaco] H.248.23 Enhanced Alerting Package. > > >The description of the "Call Waiting" signal defined in H.248.23 specifies >that call waiting patterns do not repeat - Is this correct? > > >I would have thought that for a Call Waiting service that it would would >make perfect sense for the "call waiting" pattern to be repeatedly applied >by the MG until it was told to stop the call waiting signal by the MGC (c.f. >ringing) . It is the MGC that determines the interval within which the >waiting call should be accepted and thus determines the overall duration of >the call waiting pattern. > > > > >Dal Chohan > > > >_______________________________________________ >Megaco mailing list >[email-masked] >https://www1.ietf.org/mailm!
an/listinfo/megaco

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---

From: "Umesh Sharma" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 14:45:48 +0000

Hi,

Regards,

Umesh

an/listinfo/megaco

---

From: "Kevin Boyle" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:23:59 -0500

If the MGC wants to apply the tone repeatedly, it is certainly within the
prerogative of the MGC to override the signal type and duration.  I am
interested to know which specification defines the feature you talk about,
since I went out of my way to consider the function of these features in
many localities when I designed the packages.
 
It seems to me that things are a little more complicated than just playing
the sound repeatedly.  Applying a signal on an active speech path requires
the MG to cut the speech path to ensure that only the party to whom the tone
applies hears it.  This would imply that the speech path would be cut for
the entire duration of the signal.  This would be somewhat detrimental to
the ongoing speech on the call if the duration of the tone is "infinite".
 
I stand by what the package says.
 
Kevin

  _____  

From: Dal Chohan [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 8:59 AM
To: Boyle, Kevin [NCRTP:3Z40:EXCH]; Raphael Tryster; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Megaco] H.248.23 Enhanced Alerting Package.

Sorry, but I think you have missed the point that I am making - H.248.23
states that Call Wait patterns do not repeat and to me this means that you
cannot apply the Call Waiting tone repeatedly and I see no reason for such a
restriction.
 
I can think of an implementation of Call Waiting for example in the UK where
it would be advantageous for the Call Waiting tone to be repeatedly applied
by the MG, rather than defining the distinct number of cycles of Call
Waiting that should be applied at the MG as determined by the pattern
parameter. This approach minimises the configuration in the MG and lets the
MGC determine the number of cycles of Call Waiting that should be applied,
which it does know anyway since it is running an overall timer within which
the waiting call should be accepted.
 
Some additional comments in-line.

Dal Chohan.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Kevin Boyle <mailto:[email-masked]>  
To: Dal Chohan <mailto:[email-masked]>  ; Raphael
<mailto:[email-masked]> Tryster ; [email-masked]
<mailto:[email-masked]>  
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 12:27 PM
Subject: RE: [Megaco] H.248.23 Enhanced Alerting Package.

[DC] I didn't say that - Isn't that the purpose of the pattern parameter to
define the duration of the Call Waiting tone, so for example pattern 1 could
mean apply the Call Waiting tone indefinitely and pattern 2 could mean apply
one pulse of Call Waiting tone.

Call wait generally has a very long interval between occurrences, and is
generally limited to two occurrences.  
 
[DC] The two ocurrences may true for the US market, but this isn't the case
for the UK.
 
Ringing, on the other hand, does not have a long interval (as compared to
the length of the audible signal) and is always applied indefinitely.
Further, the two examples I gave are just that -- examples.  If you read the
call waiting specifications, certain feature interactions require only a
single application of the call wait tone as well.  These all lead to the
conclusion that I stated earlier: Call wait is a discrete signal applied
multiple times.
 
[DC] I have no problem with treating the signal as a pulsed signal that is
applied multiple times, but the current text states that "multiple" cannnot
be of an infinite value and I think the UK Call Waiting service operation
could benefit from this latter mode of working.
 
Kevin

  _____  

Raphael 

Dal Chohan.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Raphael  <mailto:[email-masked]> Tryster 
To: 'Dal Chohan' <mailto:[email-masked]>  ; [email-masked]
<mailto:[email-masked]>  

Kevin 

  _____  

	Raphael Tryster 

  
  
Dal Chohan

---

From: "Kevin Boyle" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:23:59 -0500

Kevin

  _____  

 

Dal Chohan.

----- Original Message ----- 

 

 

Kevin

  _____  

Raphael 

Dal Chohan.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Raphael  <mailto:[email-masked]> Tryster 
To: 'Dal Chohan' <mailto:[email-masked]>  ; [email-masked]
<mailto:[email-masked]>  

Kevin 

  _____  

	Raphael Tryster 

  
  
Dal Chohan