Subject: [Mip6] MIP6 BoF Meeting minutes from IETF57

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:24:25 -0500

Hello,

Attached are the preliminary minutes of the MIP6 BoF.
If you have any comments on these, please send them to
me or the mip6 mailing list.

-Basavaraj

**********************************************

Mobility for IPv6 BoF (MIP6)
----------------------------

Wednesday, July 16 2003, 0900-1130

Reported by: 
Eva Gustaffson ([email-masked]) and
Koojana Kuladinithi ([email-masked])
(with some edits by Basavaraj Patil)

Chairs: Basavaraj Patil ([email-masked])
	Gabriel Montenegro ([email-masked])
	Phil Roberts ([email-masked])

Agenda:
0. Intro/Agenda/Tahi Test suite update
1. Charter discussion					Chairs
2. Thoughts on Bootstrapping a mobile node securely	Chairs
3. Alternate HA-MN Signaling Security Ideas		
   Jari Arkko/Charles Perkins	(No I-D)
4. Multiple Care-of Address Registration on Mobile IPv6
   Ryuji Wakikawa (I-D: draft-wakikawa-mip6-multiplecoa-01.txt)
5. Extension to Advanced Socket API for Mobile IPv6
   Samita Chakrabarti (draft-chakrabarti-mobileip-mipext-advapi-01.txt)
6. Backbone interoperability testing
   Philippe Cousin/Samita Chakrabarti

General note: Because of time constraints the Socket API presentation
and the backbone interoperability discussion were constrained
significantly.

--------------------------------------------------------

0. Agenda/Tahi Test Suite Update

--------------------------------------------------------
 Only change to the agenda previously posted is the inclusion of the
 Tahi test suite update. 
 Status of Mobile IPv6 WG I-Ds (base MIPv6 and MN-HA IPsec)
 clarified. All discuss items (by IESG) on the base spec have been
 clarified and closed. Awaiting Steve Bellovins approval on the
 clarifications provided for the MN-HA IPsec I-D.

 Hiroshi Miyata made an announcement of the availability of the Tahi
 test suite version 1.0 for Mobile IPv6 which is based on draft
 version 21. Version 2.0 is expected in October and will support draft
 version 24.

--------------------------------------------------------

1. Charter Discussion

--------------------------------------------------------

 Basavaraj Patil presented the highlights of the charter. The Primary
 goal: improve base spec and work on items critical to get MIPv6
 deployable on large scale 
 1. Refine base spec based on implementations & interoperability experience
 2. Split up base spec into smaller modular interworking pieces

 Work on items identified during development of base:
 1. Bootstrap mechanism for setting up SAs between MN & HA
 2. Improving HA reliability
 3. Support MN changing of address
 4. Alternatives to return-routability
 5. Multicast support

 Discussion:
 Charlie Perkins: we might have more docs for security mechanisms,
 might take longer, may need to refine milestones later (these are
 tentative) 
 Thomas Narten: if document is ready in advance of milestone no reason
 to delay 
 Basavaraj Patil: charter is still being reviewed

 Hesham Soliman: need to consider MIPv4-v6 interaction; should be
 included in charter 
 Basavaraj Patil: consider transition issues to be taken up in v6ops,
 more of a cross-area item 
 Thomas Narten: is there a problem statement for this?
 Hesham Soliman: some work was done earlier, we can resubmit
 Thomas Narten: need a few pages summary why this is a problem
 George Tsirtsis: dual stack node works, but more can be done...
 Basavaraj Patil: charter is very focused, if you think this is
 important enough, write a problem statement 

 Samita Chakrabarti: route optimization?
 Basavaraj Patil: this is the mandated mechanism in base spec

 Charlie Perkins: decision for separate MIPSHOP WG inconclusive,
 better to have just one WG, make work & progress easier, need a lot
 of interaction between the two, would be worthwhile consider making
 these two WGs the same, otherwise we get more work and less
 productivity 
 Basavaraj Patil: people working on issues in the different groups are
 the same yes, but we separate the work into smaller groups to get
 more focus 
 Charlie Perkins: which WG has broader scope?
 Basavaraj Patil: MIP6
 Charlie Perkins: didn't seem like that; if we have one WG now we can
 split it up later, would be harder to join two groups later 
 James Kempf: we've been working on drafts for last three years, not
 making progress, need to get done within next 6 months or this will
 never be done; easier to finish within 6 months with smaller groups 
 Gabriel Montenegro: can we close this issue?
 Thomas Narten: has been a long discussion, in the end ADs have to
 make decision, decided to split, MIP has history of being big and
 unwieldy, lot on its plate already; hesitant to take on new stuff
 that is not core, don't want to overload one WG 
 Charlie Perkins: we had a three year's sprint to get the base done,
 lots of things missing, ex multicast... 
 Thomas Narten: these issues we can still work through, charter is to
 be put in front of IESG within three weeks 

--------------------------------------------------------

2. Thoughts on Bootstrapping a mobile node securely

--------------------------------------------------------

 Gabriel presented the chairs thoughts on the bootstrapping problem. 

 Discussion:
 What is it? Why do we do it? ...
 Hesham Soliman: lots of these comments are not benefits of
 bootstrapping, but of MIPv6 
 Gabriel Montenegro: we can discuss later, but there seem to be enough
 reasons to do bootstrapping 

 Hesham Soliman: just using this doesn't prevent PKIs right...?
 Francis Dupont: our solution was to use AAA infrastructure; if you
 want to change addresses but keep peers... 
 Gabriel Montenegro: Jari will talk about these issues in next
 presentation 

 Hesham Soliman: AAA has to be there, utilize for key distribution,
 but propose to add normal IKE (public key based to use that) 
 Basavaraj Patil: extend to bootstrap MSA... some credentials exist
 already? 
 Gabriel Montenegro: yes, some security context exists; the assumption
 is that you have something to bootstrap off 
...Cont presentation: further thoughts on dynamic MSAs, credential provisioning

 James Kempf: we need to do certificate profile, needs to be looked at 
 Gabriel Montenegro: yes, there is some thought behind it, but we need
 a bit more; to verify 
 Jari Arkko: worried about using certificates in some cases, sometimes
 authentiation not necessarily needs certificates... 
 Gabriel Montenegro: yes...
 Jari Arkko: discussed with IKEv2 folks, IKEv2 has address assignment
 feature... 
 Hesham Soliman: agrees with Jari's first comment, two addresses;
 first you be reached through, second 3041address (?) 
 Gabriel Montenegro: first address is identifier (?), same sort of
 certificate might enable both 
 Hesham Soliman: authorization issues are already been taken care of
 by HA.... if HA accepts certificate just because of trusting this
 certificate...? 
 Gabriel Montenegro: the idea is that the HA doesn't know yet... 
 Hesham Soliman: don't understand.... it's for the HA to decide who
 (what MNs) to accept 
 Gabriel Montenegro: profile would specify ex where security anchor is
 to be 
 Hesham Soliman: thought you were adding specifics to
 certificates.... 
 Gabriel Montenegro: no
 Jari Arkko: wondering about pic, cleaner to do authentication
 directly with HA using this... only HA knows what addresses are
 allocated, however, don't really know where pic is going at the
 moment 
 Alper Yegin: pic is closed, IKEv2 superceding pic work

--------------------------------------------------------

3. Alternate HA-MN Signaling Security Ideas

--------------------------------------------------------

 Presentation on "Alternate proposal for MIPv6 security" was done by
 Jari Arkko. He started giving a background to the specification
 requirements defined in draft-ietf-mobileip-mipv6-ha-ipsec-06.txt to
 configure the signaling protection using IPsec (and IKEv1/IKEv2), as
 well as without using IPsec.

Discussion:

 Background, improvements on RR (most people want to improve
 speed...), suggestion: optional mechanisms allowed in addition to RR 
 Hesham Soliman: possible to add CGAs in a way to eliminate care-of
 test 
 Jari Arkko: specs are welcome...
 Charlie Perkins: not only speed, also simplicity and security (can
 get better with shared secrets than with return routability?) 
 Jari Arkko: right, most of these schemes have some kind of
 tradeoff... however, we need most of these schemes 
 Hesham Soliman: we took tradeoff of making sure it's secure, if we
 take a step back, do we want speed? Then what happens to previous
 assumptions? Different parallel contradicting specs? Don't want that,
 becomes interoperability nightmare 
 Basavaraj Patil: as Jari said, this is optional
 Charlie Perkins: in case of shared secret, MIPv6 implementations do
 allow testing using shared secret 
 Basavaraj Patil: all this is up for further discussion
 ...Cont presentation: new functions: addressing freedom, dynamic
 assignment of HAs 
 Hesham Soliman: dynamic assignment of HA, what's the goal? AAA server
 will pick HA for you? 
 Jari Arkko: yes, roughly, assign a completely new HA for you,
 addressing location privacy 

 Basavaraj Patil: scope is not only assignment of HA, you can get
 assigned home address as well as HA 
 Hesham Soliman: yes but we already have these mechanisms in HMIP, is
 this just copying MIPv4? 
 Jari Arkko: no
 James Kempf: there is requirement that each MN has ability to use
 MIPv6, no requirement for ability to use HMIP 
 Hesham Soliman: what's the requirement to do this with AAA? 
 Jari Arkko: need for local HA
 Greg Daley: experimental protocol, work on this, come back to this
 later, seems a bit premature, 
 Basavaraj Patil: not to go into MIPSHOP at this point 
 Alper Yegin: options are not limited to home domain
 ...Cont presentation: HA-MN IKE-variant feedback, additional IKEv2 issues
 Francis Dupont: "move IKEv2 first then send BU in MIPv6", will not
 work, do not move SA... 
 Jari Arkko: could you post details on this?

  Hesham inquired about possibility of
 eliminating CoA test with CGA. James mentioned that it is not sure,
 but for some cases, it might be possible. Charlie pointed out that
 there are most of schemes available to consider within this
 proposal. But, we have to consider the trade off between speed,
 security and also configurations. Basavaraj pointed that all those
 should be discussed within the WG. Hesham raised a question about the
 goal of DAHA (Dynamic Assignment of Home Agent)  within this
 proposal. Jari told that it is not only finding the current HA, but
 also to keep the location privacy. Hesham told that it can be done
 within HMIP with AAA. Jari further explianed that it is not based on
 whether MN is in home domain or local domain. Jari mentioned about
 additional IKE2 issues that do not consider in the current MIPv6
 draft. Francis Dupont mentioned that it is not the way to do this.

--------------------------------------------------------

4. Multiple Care-of Address Registration on Mobile IPv6

--------------------------------------------------------

 Ryuji Wakikawa presented the  "Multiple Care-of Address Registration
 on Mobile IPv6" I-D. He  mentioned that this draft
 (draft-wakikawa-mip6-multiplecoa-01.txt)  can be discussed within
 mip6 or nemo WG. He briefly went through  motivation, CoA
 registration, Binding Management. Basavaraj mentioned that all drafts
 related to multiple CoA's, flow movement, multiple interfaces will
 be summarised in order to determine how to proceed in future. 

--------------------------------------------------------

5. Extension to Advanced Socket API for Mobile IPv6

--------------------------------------------------------
 
 Samita Chakrabarti presented the "Mobile IPv6 Advanced Sockets
 API". She briefly explianed what is MIPv6 sockets and updates 
 from draft V00 to V01. In terms of next steps, she asked about creating a
 working group item within the mailing list. Alper raised a question
 whether it can be considered within IPv6 WG since this has a
 different scope from Mobile IP. Basavaraj mentioned that this work
 item would be discussed with the IPv6 WG chairs and decided
 accordingly. 

--------------------------------------------------------

6. Backbone interoperability testing

--------------------------------------------------------

  Samita Chakrabrti and Philippe Cousin presented the testbed proposal
  for MIPv6 interop testing. 
  Philippe explained the different types of testing focusing on event
  testing, MIPv6 permanent test-bed for ad-hoc remote testing & remote
  event testing. First draft on remote testing is available at
  www.etsi.org/plugtests. Samitha requested interested people to join
  the evening Bar BOF to duscuss further about Mobile IPv6 Internet
  testing ideas, specifically focused on having remote test-beds.

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---

From: Alper Yegin <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 15:19:12 -0700

Correction below...

> 5. Extension to Advanced Socket API for Mobile IPv6

I didn't suggest this work should be considered in IPv6 WG instead of Mobile
IP WG. I just asked "if we are going to adapt this work in Mobile IP WG,
what are we (as the WG) planning to do with the other Mobile IP API proposal
(draft-yokote-mobileip-api-02.txt)?" meaning we should look at all the
relevant work and have a plan if we are going to move forward.

Alper