Subject: [mmox] Historic meeting

From: Lawson English <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 19:53:17 -0700

So, an historic meeting took place today: representatives from 3 
different virtual worlds met in a virtual world to hash out the details 
of how to bring the MMOX meeting into their respective virtual worlds 
and allow meeting participation from within them.

Qwaq, OpenSim and SecondLife were all represented.

Here's the chat log. A more readable summary is forthcoming:

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/MMOX/Chat_Logs/2009-2-19

Lawson (SjK ISL)

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 22:02:37 -0500

Do you plan for this to be a ongoing thing ?

Marshall

On Feb 18, 2009, at 9:53 PM, Lawson English wrote:

> different virtual worlds met in a virtual world to hash out the  
> details of how to bring the MMOX meeting into their respective  
> virtual worlds and allow meeting participation from within them.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mmox mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmox

---

From: "Meadhbh Hamrick (Infinity)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 19:04:35 -0800

oh hey. i wasn't thinking about that. yer right. i don't know that  
peeps have done that before.

anyone have contacts over at dreamland or project chainsaw? we're not  
haters, reasonable accomodation will be provided to other VW operators  
who wish to stream the MMOX meeting into their systems.

-cheers
-meadhbh

---

From: Lawson English <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 20:07:50 -0700

Well, this was just a nuts and bolts meeting to hash out technical 
details for the media streaming. We're hoping that this meeting plus 
whatever multi-media solution we can devise for the MMOX meeting itself, 
will the the prototypes for some rather nifty and productive regular 
meetings.

Lawson

---

From: "Meadhbh Hamrick (Infinity)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 20:45:45 -0800

the meeting today was just to review requirements and get input from  
peeps with experience hosting large concurrent real-world / virtual- 
world events.

Sai / Lawton already posted the chat logs at http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/MMOX/Chat_Logs/19-2-2009 
  . i'm on the hook for boiling it down to its essential points. so..  
might as well present it here as well:

* there are two major issues... streaming the video out of the  
physical meeting space and providing for input from geographically  
distributed participants

* streaming out...

	* the IETF generally doesn't do video anymore, we're told it's cause  
they don't want to have a camera and camera operator per room
	* we have at least one video camera, a firewire cable, a macbook pro  
running quicktime broadcaster, and a commercial partner who can  
replicate those streams
		* do we need additional audio equipment (tie mic for presenters,  
microphone for attendees to ask questions / make comments?)
	* those who want to view the stream (either within the virtual world,  
or without) would use an RTSP url in their favorite streaming video  
client to access the stream
		* this should work with QuickTime Player, mplayer, miro / democracy,  
et al
	* second life parcel / estate owners and open sim instance operators  
may set the "parcel media stream" to this RTSP url
		* this will allow anyone who enters the parcel to get a reference to  
the RTSP url and establish a stream from our commercial stream partner  
to the user's client host
		* it's important to note that for second life and open sim  
instances, this will consume one RTSP stream per client, not one  
stream per virtual world
		* qwaq says they can consume a single stream and rebroadcast it  
within their virtual world. (which is pretty darn'd awesome)
	* there was considerable variability in the estimates of how many  
streams would be required
		* bjornlyn loon and bevan whitfield were present, giving advice for  
how to judge the requirements
		* the low estimate was 2 streams required
		* the high estimate was 300 streams (eliminating the outliers of 5k  
and 20k)
		* we want to get this number pinned down by COB this Friday (20 Feb  
2009)
	* qwaq has a strong preference / requirement for using H.264 instead  
of H.263
		* but that's not a terrible issue, the SL clients on Mac and Windows  
are known to support H.264.
		* we would love to hear from users / developers of other viewers if  
H.264 support is present.
	* with so many moving parts, it would be nice to have a  test run or  
two (or three)
		* fortunately, whump linden will be using a similar configuration to  
broadcast Ursala K. LeGuin's reading from the upcoming Potlatch  
literary event

* getting questions / comments back into the face to face meeting

	* there is a concern that all participants volunteering information  
(questions, comments, etc.) have been made aware of the IETF IPR  
Disclosure rules
		* you can find information about this at http://www.ietf.org/NOTEWELL.html
		* this issue is the primary "business requirement"
	* there were several proposals for how to ensure remote participants  
were presented with the NOTEWELL URL and told to read it before  
commenting
		* one solution was to require people to visit a "click through" web  
page requiring you to acknowledge you were told to read the contents  
of the NOTEWELL page
		* another solution (for virtual worlds) was to spam users with  
notecards and placards telling them to read the contents of the  
NOTEWELL page
			* this won't work for people who aren't in one of the virtual  
worlds, assuming people come in via XMPP
				* assuming we resolve the technical challenges of connecting to  
jabber.ietf.org with mac clients
		* yet another solution was for the person relaying questions from  
the virtual world to ask everyone, "have you read and understand the  
IETF IPR disclosure policy as outlined on the NOTEWELL page?"
	* we assume there will be one person physically present at the  
meeting who will relay questions from geographically distributed  
participants to the presenters

* related, but not completely the same, is the idea of having chat- 
bridges for people viewing the the meeting in a virtual world to talk  
to each other, and the people in various XMPP / IRC chatrooms
	
	* it would be great if _this_ was the mechanism that relayed  
questions / comments from geographically distributed participants
		* if we used one that only worked on second life, would this be fair  
to the qwaq participants or the OSGrid participants?

* other issues

	* bjornlyn loon has a solution for accessibility, w00t!
	* IETF meetings are considered public, so we are assuming the video,  
audio, audio transcription and chat log will be archived and freely  
available.
		* so don't say anything you don't want your (grand)kids hearing you  
say 15 years from now

* moving forward

	* we need to figure out how many streams we're going to purchase by  
close of business on friday 20 february, 2009
	* we need to get guidance from the IETF with respect to what  
constitutes "notice" for IETF IPR disclosure policy
	* it would be great to test this configuration
	* is the use of [email-masked] required? several mac users have  
noted difficulty in using it.

-cheers
-meadhbh

---

From: Dave Coyle <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 07:56:26 -0500

On 2009-02-18 23:45:45 -0500, [email-masked] wrote:
> 	* is the use of [email-masked] required? several mac users
> 	have  noted difficulty in using it.

That's because the room hasn't been created yet.  :)  Try
[email-masked] ... that works, mmox doesn't.

-Coyle

---

From: Morgaine <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:38:47 +0000

Excellent summary of a complex meeting, thanks Infinity. :-)

> noted difficulty in using it.

I'll echo Dave's reply that jabber.ietf.org is working fine.  Some of us
were in there together last night for tests in the "test" room.  The "mmox"
room hasn't yet been set up or enabled, but no doubt our AD can fix that.

Looking at the Jabber room logs at http://jabber.ietf.org/logs/, it's worth
noting that this facility is in use by many workgroups, well over a dozen
since the start of the year.  I think that it would serve MMOX well too,
both during the forthcoming special meetings and subsequently when more
interactive discussion is needed than email allows.

Morgaine.

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 12:02:39 -0500

I have asked for [email-masked] to be created.

Regards
Marshall

---

From: "Meadhbh Hamrick (Infinity)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 09:06:48 -0800

hmm... what client were you using? colloquy seems to have problems  
with both [email-masked] as well as other jabber servers.

and can you change the mmox wiki page you made to not reference [email-masked] 
  ?

thx

On Feb 19, 2009, at 5:38 AM, Morgaine wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 4:45 AM, Meadhbh Hamrick (Infinity) <[email-masked] 
> > wrote:
>
> I'll echo Dave's reply that jabber.ietf.org is working fine.  Some  
> of us were in there together last night for tests in the "test"  
> room.  The "mmox" room hasn't yet been set up or enabled, but no  
> doubt our AD can fix that.
>
> Looking at the Jabber room logs at http://jabber.ietf.org/logs/,  
> it's worth noting that this facility is in use by many workgroups,  
> well over a dozen since the start of the year.  I think that it  
> would serve MMOX well too, both during the forthcoming special  
> meetings and subsequently when more interactive discussion is needed  
> than email allows.
>
> Morgaine.

---

From: Morgaine <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:34:30 +0000

> I have asked for [email-masked] to be created.

Wow, fast work, it's been created already!

Thanks Marshall, and whoever turned the switch. :-)

Morgaine.

---

From: Rob Lanphier <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:01:56 -0800

On Mac, I've been able to get Adium to work (using my Google Talk
account).  Colloquy was a bust (failed, and eventually crashed)

Adium instructions:
1.  Get a Jabber account on a publicly-connected server somewhere (e.g.
Google)
2.  Log into the account
3.  Choose "Join Chat", select your Jabber account, then fill in these
fields:
a.  Chat room name: mmox
b.  Server: jabber.ietf.org
4.  Join

Since I already had a private IM exchange going, it added the chat room
as a tab on the existing dialog box, not giving it focus.  That made me
think it wasn't working when it fact, people were saying "Hi Rob" to me
without my knowing it.

Since Adium uses libpurple (nee libgaim), I imagine that Pidgin (nee
Gaim) should work just fine for Win32 and Linux.

Rob

On 2/19/09 9:06 AM, Meadhbh Hamrick (Infinity) wrote:
> with both [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]> as well
> as other jabber servers.
>
> and can you change the mmox wiki page you made to not reference
> [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]> ?
>
> thx
>
>> On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 4:45 AM, Meadhbh Hamrick (Infinity)
>> <[email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:
>>
>>      
>>       * is the use of [email-masked]
>>     <mailto:[email-masked]> required? several mac users have
>> I'll echo Dave's reply that jabber.ietf.org <http://jabber.ietf.org>
>> is working fine.  Some of us were in there together last night for
>> tests in the "test" room.  The "mmox" room hasn't yet been set up or
>> enabled, but no doubt our AD can fix that.
>>
>> Looking at the Jabber room logs at http://jabber.ietf.org/logs/, it's
>> worth noting that this facility is in use by many workgroups, well
>> over a dozen since the start of the year.  I think that it would
>> serve MMOX well too, both during the forthcoming special meetings and
>> subsequently when more interactive discussion is needed than email
>> allows.
>>
>> Morgaine.
>> [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:18:52 -0500

Dear Rob;

> account).  Colloquy was a bust (failed, and eventually crashed)

On the Mac, what's wrong with iChat ?

Marshall

>>> it's

---

From: Rob Lanphier <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:25:21 -0800

> On the Mac, what's wrong with iChat ?

I wasn't able to get it to work.  I tried that as well.

Rob

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:41:15 -0500

> I wasn't able to get it to work.  I tried that as well.

On iChat

File
Go to Chat Room (AKA Command R)
enter room name "[email-masked]"
make sure that you have right account selected (jabber, not AIM, etc)
push "go"

Marshall

>>>>> I'll echo Dave's reply that jabber.ietf.org <http://jabber.ietf.org 
>>>>> >

---

From: "Meadhbh Hamrick (Infinity)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:15:20 -0800

okay. i've tried this. iChat gives no indication i've joined a chat  
room. it gives no error to say i have not entered a chat room. it  
provides no UI for me to enter text (which is what i'm assuming it's  
supposed to do.)

i've been trying this with a livejournal account and my two gtalk  
accounts.

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:43:25 -0500

> provides no UI for me to enter text (which is what i'm assuming it's  

Are you sure you are online with jabber ? (To add, go to preferences,  
add the jabber account by clicking on
the "+".)

I have hide it "hide" one window behind another on rare occasions, but  
the window has a UI for entering text - a text box, exactly as for any  
other IM.

If you are not on line, the text box goes away.

If you have joined the room :

Under "Accounts" you should see a check mark by your jabber account name
Under "Window" you should see "Chatting in [email-masked]"

Regards
Marshall