Subject: [Mtgvenue] upcoming meeting in UK

From: Mikael Abrahamsson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 07:05:14 +0100 (CET)

https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/29/yes-the-uk-now-has-a-law-to-log-web-users-browsing-behavior-hack-devices-and-limit-encryption/?ncid=rss

"The new law also brings in a new requirement: that communications service 
providers harvest and retain logs of the digital services accessed by all 
their users for a full year. This log is accessible to a wide range of 
government agencies, not just law and intelligence agencies. Access to the 
log does not require a warrant."

Is this really a country where we want to have a meeting in 2018?

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: [email-masked]

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From: Eliot Lear <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 07:15:30 +0100

Isn't this precisely the sort of criteria we said we *wouldn't* consider?

On 11/30/16 7:05 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
> "The new law also brings in a new requirement: that communications
> service providers harvest and retain logs of the digital services
> accessed by all their users for a full year. This log is accessible to
> a wide range of government agencies, not just law and intelligence
> agencies. Access to the log does not require a warrant."
>

---

From: Yoav Nir <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 08:24:30 +0200

> On 30 Nov 2016, at 8:15, Eliot Lear <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> Isn't this precisely the sort of criteria we said we wouldn't consider?
> 
+1, but also...
>> https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/29/yes-the-uk-now-has-a-law-to-log-web-users-browsing-behavior-hack-devices-and-limit-encryption/?ncid=rss <https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/29/yes-the-uk-now-has-a-law-to-log-web-users-browsing-behavior-hack-devices-and-limit-encryption/?ncid=rss> 
>> 
>> "The new law also brings in a new requirement: that communications service providers harvest and retain logs of the digital services accessed by all their users for a full year. This log is accessible to a wide range of government agencies, not just law and intelligence agencies. Access to the log does not require a warrant." 
>> 

The IETF has had meetings in the United States, China, South Korea and Sweden. Does any one of those *not* do this?

We might as well assume that pervasive monitoring is happening and adjust our protocols accordingly.

Which we can do, and which we are doing. Even in the UK.

Yoav

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From: Mikael Abrahamsson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 07:37:43 +0100 (CET)

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016, Yoav Nir wrote:

> The IETF has had meetings in the United States, China, South Korea and 
> Sweden. Does any one of those *not* do this?

Well, there is is a difference in degree.

Sweden only allows access to this kind of monitoring for military 
intelligence and secret service only, and there is also criteria put in 
place to have politicians oversee what's being searched for, so there is 
kind of a "warrant".

> Which we can do, and which we are doing. Even in the UK.

Ok. Perhaps people should be briefed on local laws before each meeting 
then? I was not aware of pervasive widespread surveillence in South Korea, 
I only knew about widespread filtering.

For me it's a huge difference to have military&secret service looking at 
traffic, as opposed to having basically any government agency allowed to 
look into peoples Internet access history without warrant (if that's 
indeed true about UK), allowed by law.

---

From: Melinda Shore <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 21:38:31 -0900

On 11/29/16 9:05 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
> accessed by all their users for a full year. This log is accessible to a
> wide range of government agencies, not just law and intelligence

Hi, all:

The mtgvenue working group is dealing with criteria and
processes to provide guidance to the IAOC meetings committee
in choosing future venues, rather than dealing directly
with the question of where to meet, ourselves.  It's probably
best to contact them directly about this, or to take it to the
IETF discussion list.  This needs to be discussed but it's
not within the mtgvenue working group's scope.

Melinda

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From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 11:23:10 +1300

On 30/11/2016 19:38, Melinda Shore wrote:
...
> not within the mtgvenue working group's scope.

Agreed, but perhaps a few case studies on external issues that affect
attendees' willingness to attend would be illuminating.

   Brian