Subject: [Mtgvenue] Martin Vigoureux's Yes on draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process-15: (with COMMENT)

From: Martin Vigoureux <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2018 05:41:22 -0700

Martin Vigoureux has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process-15: Yes

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COMMENT:
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Hello,

please forgive me for raising the following point, especially because I haven't
participated in nor followed the discussions on that draft, but I would much
prefer if "ethnicity" was used instead of "race".

Martin

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From: Pete Resnick <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 14:47:19 -0500

Hi Martin,

Thanks for the comment.

Just so we have the context, here's the text in section 2.1:

       2.  Avoid meeting in countries with laws that effectively exclude
           people on the basis of race, religion, gender, sexual
           orientation, national origin, citizenship, or gender 
identity.

In some contexts, "race" is not completely contained in "ethnicity" 
(sometimes also called "ethnic origin"), and certainly not vice-versa. 
The UN Office of the High Commissioner on Human Rights uses both terms 
in their definition:

"Human rights are rights inherent to all human beings, whatever our 
nationality, place of residence, sex, national or ethnic origin, colour, 
religion, language, or any other status."

"The principle applies to everyone in relation to all human rights and 
freedoms and it prohibits discrimination on the basis of a list of 
non-exhaustive categories such as sex, race, colour and so on."

<http://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/Pages/WhatareHumanRights.aspx>

I've seen other formulations of the list. I don't think there's a 
problem to add "ethnicity" to the list in this document.

pr

On 5 Jun 2018, at 7:41, Martin Vigoureux wrote:

> Please refer to 
> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html

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From: Martin Vigoureux <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 01:24:27 +0200

Hello Pete,

many thanks for your answer.
So, maybe it's only a language barrier. What is the definition of race 
in this document?

Thank you
martin

Le 2018-06-05 à 21:47, Pete Resnick a écrit :
> |2. Avoid meeting in countries with laws that effectively exclude people 
> on the basis of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, national 
> origin, citizenship, or gender identity. |
> 
> http://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/Pages/WhatareHumanRights.aspx
>

---

From: Pete Resnick <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 11:53:55 -0500

Hi Martin,

Well, that's a fraught question. "Race" is a deeply complicated and 
somewhat problematic word (see 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_categorization) for some of 
the controversies), but since the term is still widely used in law and 
public policy, I think it's reasonable to use it here. The distinction 
usually made is that race involves visible physical attributes 
associated with a particular ethnicity or national origin, whether or 
not the person in question is actually of that ethnicity or national 
origin.

pr

On 6 Jun 2018, at 18:24, Martin Vigoureux wrote:

>> |2. Avoid meeting in countries with laws that effectively exclude 
>> people on the basis of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, 
>> national origin, citizenship, or gender identity. |
>>
>> (sometimes also called "ethnic origin"), and certainly not 
>> vice-versa. The UN Office of the High Commissioner on Human Rights 
>> uses both terms in their definition:
>>
>> nationality, place of residence, sex, national or ethnic origin, 
>> colour, religion, language, or any other status."
>>
>> "The principle applies to everyone in relation to all human rights 
>> and freedoms and it prohibits discrimination on the basis of a list 
>> of non-exhaustive categories such as sex, race, colour and so on."
>>

---

From: Martin Vigoureux <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 23:51:38 +0200

Thank you Pete

The fact that, as you say, this is a fraught question illustrates my 
point. There are indeed controversies on the possible definitions and 
use of that word. This is why I was proposing to use another word, 
possibly less controversial.
On the other hand, I fully agree with you that it is used in law and
public policies.
I guess I was influenced by the fact that, in France, that word has been 
removed from law, though it still remains in the constitution.

That being said, thank you for the discussion.
I'll live with whatever you end up deciding.

regards,
martin