Subject: Respect for others (RE: your ongoing diatribe)

From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 20:03:35 +0100

Since Phil claims that this behaviour comes "from the top down", and it's 
hard to find anyone who can be "the top" above me....

I find the behaviour Phil Hallam-Baker describes below unacceptable.

At times, a quickly-tossed-off "I know this is false, but I don't have the 
time to show you the proof" is acceptable as a placeholder until time can 
be made; at times, an "I have explained this problem to you twentyseven 
times, and you still don't agree with me" is nothing more than the simple 
truth, and we have to recognize the underlying disagreement.

But in general, asking the IETF to accept consensus on an unsubstantiated 
objection is no more acceptable than asking the IETF to accept consensus on 
an undocumented proposal.

                        Harald

--On søndag, februar 23, 2003 19:21:08 -0800 "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> I think that the underlying problem here is lack of respect. Frankly I
> don't much care about the technical issues someone is putting forward
> when they are behaving like a shouting head from a sunday talk show.
>
> While Prof Bernsteins posts and general behaviour shows a total lack of
> respect for others I don't think the problem is unique to members of the
> crazy gang.
>
> One of the issues I have with the IETF generally is that the feedback I
> frequently get back on ideas is 'if you understood the problem you would
> know why your proposal is stupid', followed by a blank refusal to cite
> specifics. This is an argument strategy that will be familliar to the
> readers of Joseph Heller.
>
> I am not talking about random bar room conversations here, I am talking
> about longstanding IESG and IAB members. If I get treated that way after
> ten years of involvement with network protocols, how does the graduate
> student who comes to her first IETF get treated?
>
> The point is that this type of behaviour is comming from the top down.
>
>
> 		Phill