Subject: [newtrk] Re: More pretty graphs

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:37:30 +0200

I think this is *really* interesting for newtrk. This is
the reality of the document dependencies that complicate the
standards track (and ISDs).

     Brian

Bill Fenner wrote:
> Based on the positive feedback from my RFC-Editor graph, I've updated
> some work that I started some time ago - a set of graphs, two per
> working group.  These graphs show inter-document dependencies(*) of
> all I-Ds that are working group documents, and one "hop" forwards and
> back - for example, if a foowg document depends on
> draft-fenner-great-stuff, then the individual draft shows up, but not
> *that* document's dependencies.  The two graphs are <wgname>.pdf,
> which includes relationships that my script could determine are not
> normative, and <wgname>-norm.pdf which does not.  Sometimes when the
> full graph is too much, the -norm graph is still readable.
> 
> It's an interesting way to see what relationships exist, and what
> other groups / documents may be referencing a given WG's work.
> 
> http://rtg.ietf.org/~fenner/ietf/deps/viz/
> 
> Each page includes a key for what the shapes and colors mean. 
> Feedback is welcome.
> 
>   Bill
> 
> (*) - Of course, these dependencies are gathered programmatically,
> using heuristics run over Internet Drafts, looking for filenames of
> other drafts.  This means that some dependencies are not found - e.g.,
> references like
> 
>    [Ken-Arch]Kent, S., and Seo, K., "Security Architecture for the
>              Internet Protocol", RFC ???, ??? 200?.
> 
> that are meant to be to an I-D are never seen in my data.  (I'm not
> picking on IPsec or this reference format - just noting the
> limitations of my heuristics)  The type of reference is also picked up
> by heuristics, looking for sections titled, e.g., "Normative
> References".  I'm happy to look at the specifics of any document that
> the heuristics failed on.
> 
> The actual data behind the graphs can be seen in my mysql database;
> https://rtg.ietf.org/phpmyadmin/ user ietf password ietf database
> draftdep table dep
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ietf mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
> 

.
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From: Douglas Otis <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 10:35:44 -0700

On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 09:37 +0200, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
Brian,

Interesting indeed.  This illustrates the need for this type of
aggregation.

> > https://rtg.ietf.org/phpmyadmin/ user ietf password ietf database

For establishing WG goals...

References to an I-D within an ISD would introduce a fair amount of
instability, but structuring I-Ds within a WG type of ISD may have
benefit.  To allow ISDs to enter a "construction-phase" within a WG, and
to avoid naming conflicts, perhaps a convention of Xn-name.00n could
become name.00n, once all the documents have become RFCs, and the
Xn-name.00n itself is accepted.  The Xn- prefix would track the number
of times an ISD goes into "construction-phase."  This would just be a
tool used when needed.

To allow a reference to be somewhat stable for an I-D in an Xn-
document, a redirection to the I-D (from the base name to current
revision) would be useful in the same manner as a redirection to the ISD
document (from base name to current extension number).  The idea is to
allow the sharing of support infrastructure needed by ISDs proper, where
it would also play a role describing the ISD goals within a WG.

-Doug

.

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From: "Spencer Dawkins" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:08:22 -0500

> standards track (and ISDs).

"Not to mention complicating the implementations and the lives of the 
implementors..."

Spencer, with apologies for being cute.

p.s. For what it's worth, all my life I've heard the story about the 
guy who had his tombstone say "I TOLD you I was sick". That's what I 
thought, when I saw Bill's graphs a few IETFs back - this was stuff I 
"knew", but couldn't visualize or prove until Bill did the work - 
thanks again! 

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