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From: Stefan Santesson
To: Russ Housley , Denis Pinkas , pkix
CC: Joel Kazin
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 02:48:47 +0100
Subject: RE: PKI Disaster Recovery and Key Rollover
Thread-Topic: PKI Disaster Recovery and Key Rollover
Thread-Index: Ace6c28e/SZCWOA8Twua0KUEFCC5xAARVI0w
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The link seems not to work either.

Stefan Santesson
Senior Program Manager
Windows Security, Standards

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] [mailto:owner-ietf-
> [email-masked]] On Behalf Of Russ Housley
> Sent: den 29 juni 2007 18:22
> To: Denis Pinkas; pkix
> Cc: Joel Kazin
> Subject: Re: PKI Disaster Recovery and Key Rollover
>
>
> I do not know if we want to accept this document or not. I have not
> read it yet. However, if we do, I suggest that we select a file name
> without an ampersand in it.
>
> Russ
>
> At 10:52 AM 6/29/2007, Denis Pinkas wrote:
>
> >To the WG,
> >
> >I edited together with Joel Kazin an individual Internet-Draft that
> >has been placed on the IETF web server.
> >The target category is INFORMATIONAL.
> >
> >The abstract is the following:
> >
> > This document presents a framework to assist the writers of policy
> > or practice statements and the designers of a Public Key
> > Infrastructure to prepare disaster recovery plans in case of a
> > private key-compromise or a private key-loss. This may happen to
> > end-entity keys, Certification Authorities, Revocation
> Authorities,
> > Attribute Authorities, or Time-Stamping Authorities. Since
> > certificates have finite validity, CA key-rollover should be
> > planned in advance.
> >
> > In addition, denial of service attacks on Repositories holding
> > CRLs has also to be considered.
> >
> > This framework provides a comprehensive list of potential key-
> > compromise or key-loss conditions that, in the opinion of the
> > authors, should be addressed so that it is possible to quickly
> > recover from exceptional situations.
> >
> >The document is available at:
> >https://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/draft-pinkas-pkix-pki-dr&kr/
> >
> >I ask the WG to consider whether this document should be progressed
> >as an individual contribution or as a PKIX WG document.
> >
> >I will not be present at the next meeting, but I plan to prepare a
> >few slides to present the draft.
> >
> >To this respect, I ask whether it would be possible to get a time
> >slot (5 minutes)
> >at the next meeting.
> >
> >Denis

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Subject: Re: [Sip] Certificate authentication in SIP
From: Scott Lawrence
To: IETF SIP List , [email-masked]
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
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Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 14:32:15 -0400
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On Fri, 2007-06-29 at 09:37 -0500, Vijay K. Gurbani wrote:
> Sumanth Channabasappa wrote:
> > And if we find that certificates need some work to support this
> > initiative (e.g., SIP identifiers as subjects), perhaps we can
> > present some of those requirements to other WGs. If we find an
> > existing solutions that can be used, good (and we can document them
> > as such :) ).
>
> Scott Lawrence and I have spent some time on this issue, i.e.,
> SIP identifiers as subjects in X.509 certificates. The latest
> version of the draft that includes pkix WG comments from Prague
> and the comments of the sip WG ADs and others was posted
> last week to the archives, and is available at
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gurbani-sip-domain-certs-05

One qualification - the draft above is limited to certificates as whose
subject is a SIP domain - not an individual. The goal is to clarify how
such certificates are constructed and constrained, and how they should
be used to authenticate that a server is authoritative for a domain.

> Comments on this version would be extremely helpful.

--
Scott Lawrence tel:+1-781-938-5306;ext=162 or sip:[email-masked]
sipXecs project coordinator - SIPfoundry http://www.sipfoundry.org/sipXecs
Chief Technology Officer - Pingtel Corp. http://www.pingtel.com/

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Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:22:17 -0400
To: "Denis Pinkas" , "pkix"
From: Russ Housley
Subject: Re: PKI Disaster Recovery and Key Rollover
Cc: "Joel Kazin"
In-Reply-To:
References:
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I do not know if we want to accept this document or not. I have not
read it yet. However, if we do, I suggest that we select a file name
without an ampersand in it.

Russ

At 10:52 AM 6/29/2007, Denis Pinkas wrote:

>To the WG,
>
>I edited together with Joel Kazin an individual Internet-Draft that
>has been placed on the IETF web server.
>The target category is INFORMATIONAL.
>
>The abstract is the following:
>
> This document presents a framework to assist the writers of policy
> or practice statements and the designers of a Public Key
> Infrastructure to prepare disaster recovery plans in case of a
> private key-compromise or a private key-loss. This may happen to
> end-entity keys, Certification Authorities, Revocation Authorities,
> Attribute Authorities, or Time-Stamping Authorities. Since
> certificates have finite validity, CA key-rollover should be
> planned in advance.
>
> In addition, denial of service attacks on Repositories holding
> CRLs has also to be considered.
>
> This framework provides a comprehensive list of potential key-
> compromise or key-loss conditions that, in the opinion of the
> authors, should be addressed so that it is possible to quickly
> recover from exceptional situations.
>
>The document is available at:
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/draft-pinkas-pkix-pki-dr&kr/
>
>I ask the WG to consider whether this document should be progressed
>as an individual contribution or as a PKIX WG document.
>
>I will not be present at the next meeting, but I plan to prepare a
>few slides to present the draft.
>
>To this respect, I ask whether it would be possible to get a time
>slot (5 minutes)
>at the next meeting.
>
>Denis

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Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 16:52:56 +0200
From: "Denis Pinkas"
To: "pkix"
Cc: "Joel Kazin"
Subject: PKI Disaster Recovery and Key Rollover
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To the WG,

I edited together with Joel Kazin an individual Internet-Draft that has been placed on the IETF web server.
The target category is INFORMATIONAL.

The abstract is the following:

This document presents a framework to assist the writers of policy
or practice statements and the designers of a Public Key
Infrastructure to prepare disaster recovery plans in case of a
private key-compromise or a private key-loss. This may happen to
end-entity keys, Certification Authorities, Revocation Authorities,
Attribute Authorities, or Time-Stamping Authorities. Since
certificates have finite validity, CA key-rollover should be
planned in advance.

In addition, denial of service attacks on Repositories holding
CRLs has also to be considered.

This framework provides a comprehensive list of potential key-
compromise or key-loss conditions that, in the opinion of the
authors, should be addressed so that it is possible to quickly
recover from exceptional situations.

The document is available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/draft-pinkas-pkix-pki-dr&kr/

I ask the WG to consider whether this document should be progressed
as an individual contribution or as a PKIX WG document.

I will not be present at the next meeting, but I plan to prepare a few slides to present the draft.

To this respect, I ask whether it would be possible to get a time slot (5 minutes)
at the next meeting.

Denis

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Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 09:37:18 -0500
From: "Vijay K. Gurbani"
Organization: Bell Labs Security Technology Research Group
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To: Sumanth Channabasappa
CC: IETF SIP List , [email-masked], Scott Lawrence
Subject: Re: [Sip] Certificate authentication in SIP
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
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Sumanth Channabasappa wrote:
> And if we find that certificates need some work to support this
> initiative (e.g., SIP identifiers as subjects), perhaps we can
> present some of those requirements to other WGs. If we find an
> existing solutions that can be used, good (and we can document them
> as such :) ).

Scott Lawrence and I have spent some time on this issue, i.e.,
SIP identifiers as subjects in X.509 certificates. The latest
version of the draft that includes pkix WG comments from Prague
and the comments of the sip WG ADs and others was posted
last week to the archives, and is available at
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gurbani-sip-domain-certs-05

Comments on this version would be extremely helpful.

Thanks.

- vijay
--
Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
2701 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9F-546, Lisle, Illinois 60532 (USA)
Email: vkg@{alcatel-lucent.com,bell-labs.com,acm.org}
WWW: http://www.alcatel-lucent.com/bell-labs

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From: Stefan Santesson
To: pkix
Importance: high
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 15:26:06 +0100
Subject: Call for agenda items for the CHicago PKIX meeting
Thread-Topic: Call for agenda items for the CHicago PKIX meeting
Thread-Index: Ace6WW5TLUaZoDk9Ts6QzrNPf9yx1g==
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All,

A number is issues has been brought to the list since last IETF meeting.

Please let me know if you have any topic you want to discuss during the PKI=
X meeting in Chicago.
As usual, I need at least one editor from each active document to send me a=
note whether you want a time slot at the meeting beyond my general status =
report.

I need your request for agenda items before end of next week. I.e. Friday J=
uly 6.

Thank you.

Stefan Santesson
Senior Program Manager
Windows Security, Standards

--_000_A15AC0FBACD3464E95961F7C0BCD1FF0D14883C6EAEXMSGC307euro_
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All,

A number is issues has been brought=
to the
list since last IETF meeting.

Please let me know if you have any =
topic
you want to discuss during the PKIX meeting in Chicago.

As usual, I need at least one edito=
r from
each active document to send me a note whether you want a time slot at the
meeting beyond my general status report.

I need your request for agenda item=
s before
end of next week. I.e. Friday July 6.

Thank you.

Stefan Santesson

Senior Program Manager=

Windows Security, Standards<=
span
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>

--_000_A15AC0FBACD3464E95961F7C0BCD1FF0D14883C6EAEXMSGC307euro_--

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From: Stefan Santesson
To: pkix
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 15:21:59 +0100
Subject: RE: Three short fixes
Thread-Topic: Three short fixes
Thread-Index: Acemzu8J1FtF9cTgR/K0AnGIU7jXbgAD2K2gBN5Fi4A=
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Some general comments on the three short fixes after studying the debate.

1) Text Representation of Community Logos

I don't believe an update of the logotype RFC is motivated. If there is a n=
eed for a Community Attribute however is an open issue. The X.509 model is =
extensible and new attributes can be defined by anybody for any purpose.

2) Member Since attribute

This is the same as 1). If the e-commerce or other parts of any market need=
s a member since attribute. They could define one. The question for me is i=
f this belongs within PKIX.

3) No Padlock Icon attribute

The decision to display a padlock or anything else is an application issue,=
under the application's control. No CA is authoritative over that decision=
and as such, an attribute or extension aimed to control this seems as a ba=
d solution. I agree that this is better solved by negotiating TLS ciphersui=
tes rather than through certificate content. I may for example want to use =
the same certificate for both types of sessions.

Stefan Santesson
Senior Program Manager
Windows Security, Standards

--_000_A15AC0FBACD3464E95961F7C0BCD1FF0D14883C3EAEXMSGC307euro_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Some general comme=
nts
on the three short fixes after studying the debate.

1) Text Representation of Community Logos<=
/span>

I don’t believe an update of the logotype RFC is motivate=
d.
If there is a need for a Community Attribute however is an open issue. The
X.509 model is extensible and new attributes can be defined by anybody for =
any purpose.

2) Member Since attribute<=
/p>

This is the same as 1). If the e-commerce or other parts of any
market needs a member since attribute. They could define one. The question =
for
me is if this belongs within PKIX.

3) No Padlock Icon attribute

The decision to display a padlock or anything else is an
application issue, under the application’s control. No CA is authorit=
ative
over that decision and as such, an attribute or extension aimed to control =
this
seems as a bad solution. I agree that this is better solved by negotiating =
TLS
ciphersuites rather than through certificate content. I may for example wan=
t to
use the same certificate for both types of sessions.

Stefan Santesson

Senior Program Manager

Windows Security, Standards<=
span
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>

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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 08:46:10 +0200
To: [email-masked]
From: "Christan hammond"
Subject: Then this little baby grows up big, an' you find another'n.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="=====================_520171==.REL"

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[]

The display context is a special device context that treats each
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Baron Jukaga lunged forward, grabbing at the commander's holster and
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council against the insurgents.
But he's a mysterious, superior being--that's what makes it so
interesting. But their stroke was too late.
Then this little baby grows up big, an' you find another'n. CONCHITA
But will they love me.
CW is permitted on all frequencies but is exclusive where shown.
CPP(40) - fixes bug 5818.
Cache items with this priority level are the most likely to be
deleted from the cache as the server frees system memory. CPP - Fix
conflict with scanto file of the same name.
CSurrogate class implementation (ISurrogate). Initializes an instance
of the class using an object that maps one type to another.
Or it's not, really. CPP 31 31 The files were just checked in over
the old files.
--=====================_520171==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

The display context is a special device context that treats each

window as a separate display surface. Sweat soaked through the shirt

immediately and began making dark patches on the coat.

CPP(35) - fixes bug 3845. So shall you quietly enjoy your hope And

marry sweet Bianca with consent.

The mbstowcs function converts a string of multibyte characters to a

wide character array. CPP The main implementation file for FRESERVE.

You can even look up an ICOM authorized dealer near you. CPP -

partial fix for bug 4728 If DoFileSave fails because disk is full,

don't clear the image.

Cabanas virus uses this method. CTRL+OPT+M yet again takes you to the

Netscape Fish Cam.

Baron Jukaga lunged forward, grabbing at the commander's holster and

pulled out his pistol. Now it is directly on a line with the blue

cupola of the theatre where an imposing general is holding a war

council against the insurgents.

But he's a mysterious, superior being--that's what makes it so

interesting. But their stroke was too late.

Then this little baby grows up big, an' you find another'n. CONCHITA

But will they love me.

CW is permitted on all frequencies but is exclusive where shown.

CPP(40) - fixes bug 5818.

Cache items with this priority level are the most likely to be

deleted from the cache as the server frees system memory. CPP - Fix

conflict with scanto file of the same name.

CSurrogate class implementation (ISurrogate). Initializes an instance

of the class using an object that maps one type to another.

Or it's not, really. CPP 31 31 The files were just checked in over

the old files.

--=====================_520171==.ALT--

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--=====================_520171==.REL--

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Subject: Domain certificates in SIP
From: Scott Lawrence
To: [email-masked]
Cc: Vijay Gurbani
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draft-gurbani-sip-domain-certs-05 has been submitted to
the IETF archives. We've tried to incorporate some of the advice we got
around the Prague meeting.

This version focuses fairly narrowly on:

- How to use and interpret the SIP identities in a X.509 certificate.
- How to indicate that this particular certificate is for SIP
usage.

What goes in the subjectAltName, and a new EKU value, with the detailed
steps to interpret and validate them are provided from the viewpoint of
user agents, proxies, and registrars.

Until the -05 version appears in the archives, you can get it from:

http://svn.resiprocate.org/rep/ietf-drafts/gurbani/domain-certs/draft-gurbani-sip-domain-certs-05.txt
http://svn.resiprocate.org/rep/ietf-drafts/gurbani/domain-certs/draft-gurbani-sip-domain-certs-05.html

Comments, questions and other feedback is much appreciated.

--
Scott Lawrence tel:+1-781-938-5306;ext=162 or sip:[email-masked]
sipXecs project coordinator - SIPfoundry http://www.sipfoundry.org/sipXecs
Chief Technology Officer - Pingtel Corp. http://www.pingtel.com/

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From: The IESG
Subject: Last Call: draft-ietf-pkix-lightweight-ocsp-profile (Lightweight OCSP Profile for High Volume Environments) to Proposed Standard
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The IESG has received a request from the Public-Key Infrastructure
(X.509) WG (pkix) to consider the following document:

- 'Lightweight OCSP Profile for High Volume Environments'
as a
Proposed Standard

An earlier version of this document was sent out for Last Call on
2007-03-05 with the intent of being published as an Informational RFC.
After the recent revisions, the IESG is considering this document for
publication as a Standards-Track RFC.

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
[email-masked] mailing lists by 2007-06-29. Exceptionally,
comments may be sent to [email-masked] instead. In either case, please
retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

The file can be obtained via
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pkix-lightweight-ocsp-profile-11.txt

IESG discussion can be tracked via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=view_id&dTag=12331&rfc_flag=0

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Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-pkix-lightweight-ocsp-profile-11.txt
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Public-Key Infrastructure (X.509) Working Group of the IETF.

Title : Lightweight OCSP Profile for High Volume Environments
Author(s) : R. Hurst, A. Deacon
Filename : draft-ietf-pkix-lightweight-ocsp-profile-11.txt
Pages : 21
Date : 2007-6-14

This specification defines a profile of the Online Certificate
Status Protocol (OCSP) that addresses the scalability issues
inherent when using OCSP in large scale (high volume) Public Key
Infrastructure (PKI) environments and/or in PKI environments that
require a lightweight solution to minimize communication bandwidth
and client side processing.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
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Subject: RE: Three short fixes
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 20:25:42 -0700
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Thread-Topic: Three short fixes
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From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip"
To: "Kemp, David P." ,
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The null assurance CAs are already out there :-(

Have been for five years :-( :-(

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Kemp, David P.
> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 3:42 PM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: RE: Three short fixes
>
>
> In order to achieve backwards compatibility with a billion
> browsers, you would have to mark any new extension as
> non-critical, where it would be ignored by every single
> browser currently in existence.
>
> Therefore users would be told that their communication is
> secure while issuing practices permit (no, positively
> encourage, once the word on this extension gets out) web site
> spoofing.
>
> If you want to use Peter's OID for this, no one can stop you.
> But the PKIX WG can refuse to assign an OID whose ostensible
> purpose is to enable non-advertised encryption but whose
> actual effect on current browsers would be to advertise
> secure communications while using null-assurance certificates.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]]
> On Behalf Of Hallam-Baker, Phillip
>
> These are not anonymous communications, they are merely
> communications that do not require the level of assurance
> that is necessary to alert the user to tell tham that the
> communication is secure.
>
> > > The reason for using a certificate is to allow for backwards
> > > compatibility with a billion installed browsers.
>
>
> -----------
>
> P.S., the difference between anonymous communications and
> communications for which the participants can claim any desired
> name (e.g. my webserver operating as https://www.verisign.com)
> and into which third parties (e.g. hotel wireless APs) may
> insert themselves eludes me. One definition of anonymous is
> "unnamed", but the second definition is "of unknown origin".
> Spoofed names certainly seem to fit the second definition.
>
>

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From: [email-masked] (Peter Gutmann)
To: [email-masked], [email-masked]
Subject: RE: Three short fixes
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I wrote:

>I'm not really too fussed about it, I'll let users keep using Xyzzy certs,

Oops, what I meant with "Xyzzy certs" is that that's the name of the OID used
to indicate that the cert is merely a bit-bag for a public key. Currently
it's used as a policy OID, which seemed to be the best place to put it,
although a standard extension would be a better way to handle it. The policy
is "This certificate isn't worth the paper it's not printed on".

Peter.

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From: [email-masked] (Peter Gutmann)
To: [email-masked], [email-masked]
Subject: RE: Three short fixes
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"Kemp, David P." writes:

>More to the point, the intent is to create an attribute that says:
>
> "This certificate is merely a convenient universally-accepted
> blob for communicating a public key and a name/email address/URL"
>*AND*
> "There is no claim that the public key and the name/email/URL
> have any relationship whatsoever"

Sure, the latter was implied in the former.

>In other words, the name/email/URL could belong to Bank of America but the
>key pair and certificate request could have been created by Phish-R-Us, and
>no claims to the contrary are made by the issuer.

More or less. As I said, there are people using certs simply as a universal
container for a public key because there's nothing else available. They don't
care about any cert semantics, they just need a means of getting a key from A
to B in a format that B can process. Providing some means of indicating this
in the cert would be useful.

I'm not really too fussed about it, I'll let users keep using Xyzzy certs,
however if there's no centralised record of this you end up with a pile of ad
hoc approaches instead, including the current one of taking otherwise normal-
looking certs and ignoring all the cert semantics. The choice is really:

1) Use null-semantics certs that look like normal certs.

2) Use null-semantics certs but at least mark them as such.

Of these two, (2) seems to be the better approach.

Peter.

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Subject: RE: Three short fixes
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 17:00:16 -0700
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From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip"
To: "Peter Lipp" ,
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Case in point here being your S/MIME cert which does not satisfy my
Outlook chaining so give a warning.

Yet I can get mail from plenty of places without any security and
without a warning either.

Wouldn't it be nice if a cert could say 'the correct course of action if
you don't like me is to simply show the email without any indication the
message is secure'.

Why do folk feel that the user has to be told about merely sub-standard
security when 99% of the Internet has no security at all?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Peter Lipp
> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 5:23 PM
> To: Hallam-Baker, Phillip; [email-masked]
> Subject: AW: Three short fixes
>
> > The information to be encoded here relates to the issue
> practices of
> > the certificate. Therefore they go into the certificate.
> Like the warning sign for an unusable safety-belt that is
> sewn into the belt
> saying: "manufactured without care, don't use for driving"?
> And the belt is applied automatically too, without the user
> noticing, so he wouldn't be realizing that the belt breaks...
>
> Earlier on you wrote:
> > In many cases all that is required is to turn on encryption.
> This would be the case with TLS-anon-cipher suites. Because
> if "all that is required" is encryption, we don't care how it
> is initiated. So there must be a use case....
>
> ...like a pre-manufactured bulk certificate that you ship to
> your customer who puts it into one shipped appliance, so you
> as the issuer have no full control on what happens with the
> certificate (and probably pregenerated key) and thus can't
> give out any warranties, but the overall procedure may be
> safe enough for its purposes? Thus, if the certificate should
> be misused, it might not do any harm elsewhere if this
> extension is in. Then there is a difference to the anon-cipher-suite.
>
> Otherwise, I don't get the point... Since you want to sell
> your certificates, you should first sell your story better.
>
> Peter
>

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Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
From: "Vanessa C"
To: "Erich"
Subject: Re[2]: greetings from me, dear
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 02:54:26 +0300
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Hello, Erich

I don't want to get up into darkness of long, empty and lonely cool days.
I can't be happy to something if I don't have my soul mate, who will
understand me...I want to change my life and let love to come into it. I
looked here at search of a good man, my destiny...And I found you! Give me a
chance to come into your life and to bring into your heart true love We are
masters of our destiny and we create it. I will wait for your letter with
hopes and dreams http://allwaylove.com/womans

Waiting for your answer

Vanessa C

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From: Trevor Freeman
To: "Kemp, David P." , "[email-masked]"
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 15:15:39 -0700
Subject: RE: Three short fixes
Thread-Topic: Three short fixes
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I have to agree with Dave here. For HTTPS these certificates would be practically useless for at least 5 years and probably more given the lag time on OS and browser upgrades. Now other applications of TLS already support the concept of "confidentiality only" TLS with certificates. I am thinking here of SMTP. SMTP servers use "opportunistic TLS" where the SMTP server has a policy to pick the STARTTLS verb whenever it its offered by the receiving server. When operating under optimistic mode the sending server does not validate the receiving servers certificate because the alternative course of action with validation errors is to send in the clear. Because the sending server does not validate the receiving server certificate a common practice is to use self signed certificates which clearly make no warranty about the identity of the owner. Most use of TLS with SMTP over the internet uses opportunistic TLS. I don't see why such a strategy does not work elsewhere if all you want is confidentiality. An interesting side bar is that the anonymous cipher suites would not work in this scenario because these same servers have a subset of domains they do want to authenticate. There is not enough data at the time of the negotiation for the receiving server to decide they do not want to authenticate the sending server so it has to pick a cipher suite with certificates then it has the option to skip validation or not later in the session.

Trevor

* -----Original Message-----
* From: [email-masked] [mailto:owner-ietf-
* [email-masked]] On Behalf Of Kemp, David P.
* Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 12:42 PM
* To: [email-masked]
* Subject: RE: Three short fixes
*
*
* In order to achieve backwards compatibility with a billion browsers,
* you would have to mark any new extension as non-critical, where it
* would be ignored by every single browser currently in existence.
*
* Therefore users would be told that their communication is secure while
* issuing practices permit (no, positively encourage, once the word
* on this extension gets out) web site spoofing.
*
* If you want to use Peter's OID for this, no one can stop you. But
* the PKIX WG can refuse to assign an OID whose ostensible purpose is
* to enable non-advertised encryption but whose actual effect on current
* browsers would be to advertise secure communications while using
* null-assurance certificates.
*
*
*
*
* -----Original Message-----
* From: [email-masked] [mailto:owner-ietf-
* [email-masked]]
* On Behalf Of Hallam-Baker, Phillip
*
* These are not anonymous communications, they are merely communications
* that do not require the level of assurance that is necessary to alert
* the user to tell tham that the communication is secure.
*
* > > The reason for using a certificate is to allow for backwards
* > > compatibility with a billion installed browsers.
*
*
* -----------
*
* P.S., the difference between anonymous communications and
* communications for which the participants can claim any desired
* name (e.g. my webserver operating as https://www.verisign.com)
* and into which third parties (e.g. hotel wireless APs) may
* insert themselves eludes me. One definition of anonymous is
* "unnamed", but the second definition is "of unknown origin".
* Spoofed names certainly seem to fit the second definition.

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Subject: RE: Three short fixes
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From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip"
To: "Peter Lipp" ,
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No: like the roll cage which is stamped 'not certified for competition
use'.

There are plenty of safety measure on my cars which I am completely
unaware of which are perfectly safe for normal road driving but not
designed for competition use.

Building a certification path up from the MAC address is prefectly
sensible and an appropriate use for PKIX. But it is not by itself
sufficient to present a trust statement. There is no accountability - by
design.

What I am working towards here is a multilayer security approach and I
want to use PKIX at a lower level than the SSL folk did.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Lipp [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 5:23 PM
> To: Hallam-Baker, Phillip; [email-masked]
> Subject: AW: Three short fixes
>
> > The information to be encoded here relates to the issue
> practices of
> > the certificate. Therefore they go into the certificate.
> Like the warning sign for an unusable safety-belt that is
> sewn into the belt
> saying: "manufactured without care, don't use for driving"?
> And the belt is applied automatically too, without the user
> noticing, so he wouldn't be realizing that the belt breaks...
>
> Earlier on you wrote:
> > In many cases all that is required is to turn on encryption.
> This would be the case with TLS-anon-cipher suites. Because
> if "all that is required" is encryption, we don't care how it
> is initiated. So there must be a use case....
>
> ...like a pre-manufactured bulk certificate that you ship to
> your customer who puts it into one shipped appliance, so you
> as the issuer have no full control on what happens with the
> certificate (and probably pregenerated key) and thus can't
> give out any warranties, but the overall procedure may be
> safe enough for its purposes? Thus, if the certificate should
> be misused, it might not do any harm elsewhere if this
> extension is in. Then there is a difference to the anon-cipher-suite.
>
> Otherwise, I don't get the point... Since you want to sell
> your certificates, you should first sell your story better.
>
> Peter
>

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From: "Peter Lipp"
To: "'Hallam-Baker, Phillip'" ,
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: AW: Three short fixes
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 23:22:58 +0200
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Dies ist eine mehrteilige Nachricht im MIME-Format.

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> The information to be encoded here relates to the issue practices of
> the certificate. Therefore they go into the certificate.
Like the warning sign for an unusable safety-belt that is sewn into the belt
saying: "manufactured without care, don't use for driving"? And the belt is
applied automatically too, without the user noticing, so he wouldn't be
realizing that the belt breaks...

Earlier on you wrote:
> In many cases all that is required is to turn on encryption.
This would be the case with TLS-anon-cipher suites. Because if "all that is
required" is encryption, we don't care how it is initiated. So there must be
a use case....

...like a pre-manufactured bulk certificate that you ship to your customer
who puts it into one shipped appliance, so you as the issuer have no full
control on what happens with the certificate (and probably pregenerated key)
and thus can't give out any warranties, but the overall procedure may be
safe enough for its purposes? Thus, if the certificate should be misused, it
might not do any harm elsewhere if this extension is in. Then there is a
difference to the anon-cipher-suite.

Otherwise, I don't get the point... Since you want to sell your
certificates, you should first sell your story better.

Peter

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Subject: RE: Three short fixes
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References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
From: "Kemp, David P."
To:
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In order to achieve backwards compatibility with a billion browsers,
you would have to mark any new extension as non-critical, where it
would be ignored by every single browser currently in existence.

Therefore users would be told that their communication is secure while
issuing practices permit (no, positively encourage, once the word
on this extension gets out) web site spoofing.

If you want to use Peter's OID for this, no one can stop you. But
the PKIX WG can refuse to assign an OID whose ostensible purpose is
to enable non-advertised encryption but whose actual effect on current
browsers would be to advertise secure communications while using
null-assurance certificates.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Hallam-Baker, Phillip

These are not anonymous communications, they are merely communications
that do not require the level of assurance that is necessary to alert
the user to tell tham that the communication is secure.

> > The reason for using a certificate is to allow for backwards
> > compatibility with a billion installed browsers.

-----------

P.S., the difference between anonymous communications and
communications for which the participants can claim any desired
name (e.g. my webserver operating as https://www.verisign.com)
and into which third parties (e.g. hotel wireless APs) may
insert themselves eludes me. One definition of anonymous is
"unnamed", but the second definition is "of unknown origin".
Spoofed names certainly seem to fit the second definition.

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Subject: RE: Three short fixes
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From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip"
To: "Thomas Pornin" ,
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The TLS features are irrelevant.

The information to be encoded here relates to the issue practices of the certificate. Therefore they go into the certificate.

These are not anonymous communications, they are merely communications that do not require the level of assurance that is necessary to alert the user to tell tham that the communication is secure.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Thomas Pornin
> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 12:12 PM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: Three short fixes
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 11, 2007 at 07:23:56AM -0700, Hallam-Baker, Phillip wrote:
> > I don't see why I should appologize for a fix for being
> 'centered' on
> > the only X.509 prototocol that can be regarded as a real success.
>
> This is a technical debate on a technical mailing-list. This
> is not a trial and there is nothing to apologize about yet.
>
>
> > The reason for using a certificate is to allow for backwards
> > compatibility with a billion installed browsers. The
> dilution of trust
> > is inevitable, all it takes to get a WebTrust audit is to
> do what you
> > say. Eventually someone is going to get a WebTrust audit on
> the null
> > CPS.
>
> For backward compatibility, SSL/TLS already has a beautiful
> scheme which is called "cipher suite selection" and it works.
> Basically, the client sends a message ("ClientHello") where
> it states which cipher suites it supports, and then the
> server selects one which it also supports. The cipher suite
> defines how the session will be protected. For DH_anon cipher
> suites, both client and server know that there is no X.509
> certificate involved, only a public key.
>
> Let's assume that we have a server which wishes to use
> encryption but needs not any kind of authentication(*). This
> server will be fine with a DH_anon suite. A client comes along:
>
> -- Either this is a client which supports the concept of an
> unauthenticated but encrypted session. That client then
> implements DH_anon cipher suites, because that is exactly
> what these suites are about, and they have been standard for
> quite a long time. The client states that it supports DH_anon
> suites, the server selects one, and the session is encrypted
> but not authenticated. No X.509 certificate is involved here,
> and, in particular, no X.509-related warning message is
> displayed to the user.
>
> -- Or the client does not support the concept of an
> unauthenticated but encrypted session. This means that the
> client does not support DH_anon cipher suites (because
> DH_anon suites are meant for one thing and one thing only:
> unauthenticated but encrypted session). The client will send
> a ClientHello message which will not contain a DH_anon suite,
> but other cipher suites which expect a X.509 certificate from
> the server. The server sends a certificate which cannot be
> authenticated by the client.
> The client displays a warning to the user, but we cannot do
> better than that since the client does not support
> unauthenticated sessions: this is the "backward
> compatibility" situation.
>
>
>
> What could be done here to makes things even better would be the
> following:
>
> -- Make DH_anon suites more "supported" (newer TLS
> specifications tell that DH_anon suites are obsolescent due
> to the involved security issues(**)).
>
> -- Define RSA_anon suites which should provide better
> performance for computationaly challenged clients (RSA
> encryption is cheap).
>
> Both of these are issues for the IETF TLS mailing-list, not
> the IETF PKIX mailing-list.
>
>
> To sum up, what you ask for _already exists_ in a better way
> (less network traffic and less X.509 processing for the same
> functionality).
> Unless what you want is something entirely different. You write:
>
> > I want to be able to issue device SSL certs. People want to
> buy them.
>
> Of course, if you sell certificates, you will not like a
> scheme where nobody uses certificates and, as such, nobody
> buys certificates.
>
>
> --Thomas Pornin
>
>
> (*) Basically, unauthenticated but encrypted session are
> useful only if the security model allows only passive
> attacks. This is rarely a valid assumptions, but this is not
> the issue in this discussion. We assume here that there are
> plausible situations where unauthenticated but encrypted
> sessions are what is needed.
>
> (**) People involved in the definition of TLS do not believe
> in the existence of plausible situations where
> unauthenticated but encrypted sessions are what is needed.
> This is why DH_anon suites are currently deprecated. But the
> same people, and, more importantly from your point of view,
> the TLS implementors will think just the same about any way
> to get unauthenticated but encryted sessions, whether by
> using the TLS features which have been designed for exactly
> that usage (DH_anon), or by any X.509-related trickery such
> as your fake certificates. So this is not an issue in this debate.
>
>

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On Mon, Jun 11, 2007 at 07:23:56AM -0700, Hallam-Baker, Phillip wrote:
> I don't see why I should appologize for a fix for being 'centered' on
> the only X.509 prototocol that can be regarded as a real success.

This is a technical debate on a technical mailing-list. This is not a
trial and there is nothing to apologize about yet.

> The reason for using a certificate is to allow for backwards
> compatibility with a billion installed browsers. The dilution of trust
> is inevitable, all it takes to get a WebTrust audit is to do what you
> say. Eventually someone is going to get a WebTrust audit on the null
> CPS.

For backward compatibility, SSL/TLS already has a beautiful scheme which
is called "cipher suite selection" and it works. Basically, the client
sends a message ("ClientHello") where it states which cipher suites it
supports, and then the server selects one which it also supports. The
cipher suite defines how the session will be protected. For DH_anon
cipher suites, both client and server know that there is no X.509
certificate involved, only a public key.

Let's assume that we have a server which wishes to use encryption but
needs not any kind of authentication(*). This server will be fine with
a DH_anon suite. A client comes along:

-- Either this is a client which supports the concept of an
unauthenticated but encrypted session. That client then implements
DH_anon cipher suites, because that is exactly what these suites are
about, and they have been standard for quite a long time. The client
states that it supports DH_anon suites, the server selects one, and the
session is encrypted but not authenticated. No X.509 certificate is
involved here, and, in particular, no X.509-related warning message is
displayed to the user.

-- Or the client does not support the concept of an unauthenticated but
encrypted session. This means that the client does not support DH_anon
cipher suites (because DH_anon suites are meant for one thing and one
thing only: unauthenticated but encrypted session). The client will send
a ClientHello message which will not contain a DH_anon suite, but other
cipher suites which expect a X.509 certificate from the server. The
server sends a certificate which cannot be authenticated by the client.
The client displays a warning to the user, but we cannot do better than
that since the client does not support unauthenticated sessions: this is
the "backward compatibility" situation.

What could be done here to makes things even better would be the
following:

-- Make DH_anon suites more "supported" (newer TLS specifications tell
that DH_anon suites are obsolescent due to the involved security
issues(**)).

-- Define RSA_anon suites which should provide better performance for
computationaly challenged clients (RSA encryption is cheap).

Both of these are issues for the IETF TLS mailing-list, not the IETF PKIX
mailing-list.

To sum up, what you ask for _already exists_ in a better way (less
network traffic and less X.509 processing for the same functionality).
Unless what you want is something entirely different. You write:

> I want to be able to issue device SSL certs. People want to buy them.

Of course, if you sell certificates, you will not like a scheme where
nobody uses certificates and, as such, nobody buys certificates.

--Thomas Pornin

(*) Basically, unauthenticated but encrypted session are useful only if
the security model allows only passive attacks. This is rarely a valid
assumptions, but this is not the issue in this discussion. We assume
here that there are plausible situations where unauthenticated but
encrypted sessions are what is needed.

(**) People involved in the definition of TLS do not believe in the
existence of plausible situations where unauthenticated but encrypted
sessions are what is needed. This is why DH_anon suites are currently
deprecated. But the same people, and, more importantly from your point
of view, the TLS implementors will think just the same about any way to
get unauthenticated but encryted sessions, whether by using the TLS
features which have been designed for exactly that usage (DH_anon), or
by any X.509-related trickery such as your fake certificates. So this is
not an issue in this debate.

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References: <[email-masked]>
From: "Kemp, David P."
To:
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More to the point, the intent is to create an attribute that says:

"This certificate is merely a convenient universally-accepted
blob for communicating a public key and a name/email address/URL"
*AND*
"There is no claim that the public key and the name/email/URL
have any relationship whatsoever"

In other words, the name/email/URL could belong to Bank of America
but the key pair and certificate request could have been created by
Phish-R-Us, and no claims to the contrary are made by the issuer.
Unfortunately, the mere existence of a certificate implies such
a claim even if it is disclaimed by an extension.

Saying "CAs want to sell no-claim certificates and server operators
want to buy them" ignores the societal cost of issuing certificates
that can be used to promote phishing.

If the extension MUST be marked critical, and if the certificate
MUST be rejected if subject name is non-null, and if the certificate
MUST be rejected if any other extension (including SAN) is present,
then perhaps there is less danger that current TLS applications
would be misled by the existence of such certificates. But the
safer approach is to not issue them in the first place, particularly
since alternatives (anonymous ciphersuites) already exist.

-----Original Message-----
From: pgut001 [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 5:20 AM
To: Kemp, David P.; [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: RE: Three short fixes

"Hallam-Baker, Phillip" writes:

>The point here is precisely to allow a certificate to state 'there are
no
>security claims being made here'.

So is the intent to create an attribute that says "This certificate is
merely
a convenient universally-accepted blob for communicating a public key
and a
name/email address/URL"? In other words it's not really TLS-specific?

Peter.

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From: [email-masked] (Peter Gutmann)
To: [email-masked], [email-masked], [email-masked], [email-masked]
Subject: RE: Three short fixes
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"Hallam-Baker, Phillip" writes:

>I don't see why I should appologize for a fix for being 'centered' on the
>only X.509 prototocol that can be regarded as a real success.

Uhh... who was that intended for? It doesn't seem to be a response to my
message that you've quoted.

>'This cert makes no security claims that are worth display to an end user'.

As it turns out I've already got an OID out there for just such an extension,
which I added after constant user requests (that is, they didn't specifically
ask for this, but said that all they needed from a cert was a universally-
recognised bit bag for public keys, and they needed some way to tag it so that
relying parties could tell that it was just a no-semantics-attached bit bag).
So if Verisign needs a vendor-neutral OID, you can use mine, assuming that's
what you want (you didn't really answer my question below).

> So is the intent to create an attribute that says "This
> certificate is merely a convenient universally-accepted blob
> for communicating a public key and a name/email address/URL"?

In response to that I got several private-mail comments saying things like
"That's the default action for certificates isn't it?" and "How does this
differ from the current situation" :-).

Peter.

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Subject: RE: Three short fixes
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 07:23:56 -0700
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From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip"
To: "pgut001" , ,
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I don't see why I should appologize for a fix for being 'centered' on the only X.509 prototocol that can be regarded as a real success.

The reason for using a certificate is to allow for backwards compatibility with a billion installed browsers. The dilution of trust is inevitable, all it takes to get a WebTrust audit is to do what you say. Eventually someone is going to get a WebTrust audit on the null CPS.

I want to be able to issue device SSL certs. People want to buy them. All that I want to do here is to make sure that they can be distinguished from certs people are using to take credit cards.

I can give you a cast iron chain for an EUI48 MAC address. But it says nothing that should give an end user warm fuzzies.

'This cert makes no security claims that are worth display to an end user'.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgut001 [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 5:20 AM
> To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]; Hallam-Baker, Phillip
> Subject: RE: Three short fixes
>
> "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" writes:
>
> >The point here is precisely to allow a certificate to state
> 'there are
> >no security claims being made here'.
>
> So is the intent to create an attribute that says "This
> certificate is merely a convenient universally-accepted blob
> for communicating a public key and a name/email address/URL"?
> In other words it's not really TLS-specific?
>
> Peter.
>
>
>

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From: David Chadwick
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Dear WG

I have published a new ID at

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chadwick-webdav-00.txt

This document describes the use of the WebDAV protocol for publishing
and revoking X.509 public key certificates and specifies two new access
methods for the Authority Information Access extension to support this.

WebDAV is an extension of HTTP, and allows certificates and CRLs to be
published on Web servers such as Apache, rather than (or as well as) in
LDAP servers, since we all know that LDAP servers are often not
accessible on the Internet.

I should like the WG to consider including this work in its charter, and
would appreciate comments on this draft either to me in person or to the
PKIX list.

regards

David

*****************************************************************
David W. Chadwick, BSc PhD
Professor of Information Systems Security
The Computing Laboratory, University of Kent, Canterbury, CT2 7NF
Skype Name: davidwchadwick
Tel: +44 1227 82 3221
Fax +44 1227 762 811
Mobile: +44 77 96 44 7184
Email: [email-masked]
Home Page: http://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/people/staff/dwc8/index.html
Research Web site: http://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/research/groups/iss/index.html
Entrust key validation string: MLJ9-DU5T-HV8J
PGP Key ID is 0xBC238DE5

*****************************************************************

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Reply-To:
From: "Turner, Sean P."
To: "'pkix'"
Subject: New mailing list and potential BOF: trust anchor management
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 11:46:03 -0400
Organization: IECA, Inc.
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A mailing list has been established to discuss a standard protocol for trust
anchor management. Numerous groups within the IETF (e.g., PKIX, SIDR, and
Kerberos) have all indicated a need for trust anchor management, but that it
is outside of their documents.

A BOF to discuss this has been proposed for IETF 69 in Chicago.

Subscription information for the ietf-trust-anchor mailing list can be found
at:
.

A description of the problem statement can be found at:
.

spt

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From: [email-masked] (Peter Gutmann)
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"Hallam-Baker, Phillip" writes:

>The point here is precisely to allow a certificate to state 'there are no
>security claims being made here'.

So is the intent to create an attribute that says "This certificate is merely
a convenient universally-accepted blob for communicating a public key and a
name/email address/URL"? In other words it's not really TLS-specific?

Peter.

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From: Thomas Pornin
To: pkix
Subject: Re: Three short fixes
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On Wed, Jun 06, 2007 at 10:07:14AM -0700, Hallam-Baker, Phillip wrote:
> If you have a certificate that does not have sufficient information to
> establish encryption then you can't use encryption. I don't see the
> relevance of that fact.

The point is that certificates are meant to be used only after a
complete path validation, and the "sufficient information to establish
encryption" is computed by the validation procedure. It so happens that
for some public key types, you may extract the public key from a lone
certificate, but nothing in X.509 was optimized for such usage.

Another way to see your proposal is the following: what you suggest is
that the server encodes its public key into something which looks like a
certificate. The server adds issuer and subject X.500 names, a serial
number, validity dates, a signature, and a bunch of extensions,
including one which states that all this added information is rubbish
and the client should just extract the public key and ignore everything
else in that "certificate". This strikes me as unnecessarily
inefficient: the server adds several layers of data, making the whole
object fatter and more complex, just so that the client gets rid of that
extra data. It would be much more efficient, especially network-wise, to
just send the server public key without bothering at all with encodings
which look like certificates and hundreds of bytes whose sole fate is to
be utterly ignored by the receiver.

And, lo and behold, SSL/TLS already has cipher suites where a simple
public key is transmitted, with no X.509 implication at all. These are
named "DH_anon". These cipher suites do what you ask for, and do it
faster and better than what your proposal would imply.

--Thomas Pornin

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From: "Kemp, David P."
To: "pkix"
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And my point is that there is no reason to use a certificate to say "no
security claims are being made". You achieve the identical result (an
encrypted channel that makes no security claims) by using DH_ANON
encryption without transmitting, validating, or even issuing a
certificate.

=20

In other words, it is up to applications and encryption protocols to
support unauthenticated and unannounced encryption if they so desire.
Because no certificates are needed to support such applications, there
is no requirement for PKIX to profile such certificates.

=20

=20

=20

[phill]: If you have a certificate that does not have sufficient
information to establish encryption then you can't use encryption. I
don't see the relevance of that fact.

=20

A certificate only needs to have sufficient information to
"authenticate" encryption, not establish. The amount of certified
information needed to "establish" an unauthenticated encryption key is
zero. DH or RSA public keys and parameters can be made up on the fly
(ephemerally) or pre-stored (statically) and handshaked without ever
touching a CA.

=20

=20

_____ =20

From: Hallam-Baker, Phillip [mailto:[email-masked]]=20
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 1:06 PM
To: Kemp, David P.; pkix
Subject: RE: Three short fixes

=20

=20

=20

3) No Padlock Icon attribute

=20

I do not believe PKIX should sponsor an attribute that tells a
certificate user to "ignore this certificate", e.g. "accept this
certificate even if it cannot be validated". I don't object to
applications supporting unauthenticated encryption while making no
security claims. But if the application is not going to authenticate an
encryption key, then the application should not be transmitting or
consuming certificates in the first place. Saying "but TLS won't work
without certificates" is not a convincing argument - the TLS working
group has made decisions regarding unauthenticated (and/or unencrypted)
ciphersuites, and the place to revisit those decisions is there, not
PKIX.=20

=20

The point here is precisely to allow a certificate to state 'there are
no security claims being made here'.=20

=20

The user does not accept the certificate, the client application does.
No user has ever checked a certificate path and no user ever will. The
question is whether the client application should be telling the user
that it is 'safe' or not.

=20

I don't see why we need to tell the user that encryption is being used
unless they have explicitly said that they need confidentiality. Telling
the user that there is encryption means also telling them about a whole
range of failures and other error conditions.=20

=20

=20

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And my point is that there is no =
reason to
use a certificate to say “no security claims are being =
made”.  You
achieve the identical result (an encrypted channel that makes no =
security
claims) by using DH_ANON encryption without transmitting, validating, or =
even
issuing a certificate.

In other words, it is up to =
applications
and encryption protocols to support unauthenticated and unannounced =
encryption
if they so desire.  Because no certificates are needed to support =
such
applications, there is no requirement for PKIX to profile such =
certificates.

[phill]:
If you have a certificate that does not have
sufficient information to establish encryption then you can't use =
encryption. I
don't see the relevance of that fact.

A certificate only needs to have
sufficient information to “authenticate” encryption, not =
establish.
The amount of certified information needed to =
“establish” an
unauthenticated encryption key is zero.    DH or RSA =
public keys and parameters
can be made up on the fly (ephemerally) or pre-stored (statically) and
handshaked without ever touching a CA.

From: =
Hallam-Baker,
Phillip [mailto:[email-masked]]

Sent: Wednesday, June 06, =
2007
1:06 PM

To: Kemp, David P.; =
pkix

Subject: RE: Three short =
fixes

3) No Padlock Icon =
attribute

=

I do not believe PKIX should =
sponsor an
attribute that tells a certificate user to “ignore this
certificate”, e.g. “accept this certificate even if it =
cannot be
validated”.  I don’t object to applications supporting
unauthenticated encryption while making no security claims.  But if =
the
application is not going to authenticate an encryption key, then the
application should not be transmitting or consuming certificates in the =
first
place.  Saying “but TLS won’t work without =
certificates”
is not a convincing argument – the TLS working group has made =
decisions
regarding unauthenticated (and/or unencrypted) ciphersuites, and the =
place to
revisit those decisions is there, not PKIX.

The point here is precisely to =
allow
a certificate to state 'there are no security claims being made =
here'.

The user does not accept the =
certificate,
the client application does. No user has ever checked a certificate path =
and no
user ever will. The question is whether the client application should be
telling the user that it is 'safe' or not.

I don't see why we need to tell the =
user
that encryption is being used unless they have explicitly said that they =
need
confidentiality. Telling the user that there is encryption means also =
telling
them about a whole range of failures and other error conditions. =

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If you have a certificate that does not have sufficient information to establish encryption then you can't use encryption. I don't see the relevance of that fact.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Thomas Pornin
> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 2:47 AM
> To: pkix
> Subject: Re: Three short fixes
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 04, 2007 at 05:01:39PM -0400, Kemp, David P. wrote:
> > I do not believe PKIX should sponsor an attribute that tells a
> > certificate user to "ignore this certificate", e.g. "accept this
> > certificate even if it cannot be validated".
>
> In all generality, the public key represented in a
> certificate is obtained as a byproduct of path validation:
> for DSA-like public keys, the public key parameters may be
> inherited from certificates higher in the path. A stand-alone
> certificate may not contain by itself enough data to
> represent a complete and usable public key. Of course, most
> certificates in the wild contain RSA public keys, which are
> self-contained. Nonetheless, using the contents of
> certificates outside of the context of a certificate path is
> a kind of paradigm shift from what X.509 usually does.
>
>
> > Saying "but TLS won't work without certificates" is not a
> convincing
> > argument - the TLS working group has made decisions regarding
> > unauthenticated (and/or unencrypted) ciphersuites, and the place to
> > revisit those decisions is there, not PKIX.
>
> TLS 1.1 (RFC 4346) still documents the "DH_anon" ciphersuites
> which allow for unauthenticated key exchange. They are marked
> as deprecated because they are vulnerable to
> man-in-the-middle attacks (and you have a quite unusual
> attack model if encryption is needed by active attacks are
> not to be feared). But they still exist. Ideally, additional
> "RSA_anon"
> cipher suites would be added, because RSA key exchange makes
> it much easier for megahertz-impaired clients.
>
>
> --Thomas Pornin
>
>

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From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip"
To: "Kemp, David P." , "pkix"
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=20

3) No Padlock Icon attribute

=20

I do not believe PKIX should sponsor an attribute that tells a =
certificate user to "ignore this certificate", e.g. "accept this =
certificate even if it cannot be validated". I don't object to =
applications supporting unauthenticated encryption while making no =
security claims. But if the application is not going to authenticate an =
encryption key, then the application should not be transmitting or =
consuming certificates in the first place. Saying "but TLS won't work =
without certificates" is not a convincing argument - the TLS working =
group has made decisions regarding unauthenticated (and/or unencrypted) =
ciphersuites, and the place to revisit those decisions is there, not =
PKIX.=20

=20

The point here is precisely to allow a certificate to state 'there are =
no security claims being made here'.=20

=20

The user does not accept the certificate, the client application does. =
No user has ever checked a certificate path and no user ever will. The =
question is whether the client application should be telling the user =
that it is 'safe' or not.

=20

I don't see why we need to tell the user that encryption is being used =
unless they have explicitly said that they need confidentiality. Telling =
the user that there is encryption means also telling them about a whole =
range of failures and other error conditions.=20

=20

=20

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3) No Padlock Icon=20
attribute

I do not =
believe PKIX=20
should sponsor an attribute that tells a certificate user to =93ignore =
this=20
certificate=94, e.g. =93accept this certificate even if it cannot be =
validated=94.=20
I don=92t object to applications supporting unauthenticated =
encryption=20
while making no security claims.  But if the application is not =
going to=20
authenticate an encryption key, then the application should not be=20
transmitting or consuming certificates in the first place. =
Saying =93but=20
TLS won=92t work without certificates=94 is not a convincing argument =
=96 the TLS=20
working group has made decisions regarding unauthenticated (and/or=20
unencrypted) ciphersuites, and the place to revisit those decisions is =
there,=20
not PKIX.

The point here is =
precisely to=20
allow a certificate to state 'there are no security claims being made=20
here'.

The user does not =
accept the=20
certificate, the client application does. No user has ever checked a =
certificate=20
path and no user ever will. The question is whether the client =
application=20
should be telling the user that it is 'safe' or=20
not.

I don't see why we =
need to=20
tell the user that encryption is being used unless they have explicitly =
said=20
that they need confidentiality. Telling the user that there is =
encryption means=20
also telling them about a whole range of failures and other error =
conditions.=20

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Subject: RE: Three short fixes
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From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip"
To: "Trevor Freeman" , , "pkix"
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I already have an authentication process for an X.500 DN. Seems like =
that is going to be the most efficient scheme.

________________________________

From: [email-masked] =
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Trevor Freeman
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 7:42 PM
To: Hallam-Baker, Phillip; [email-masked]; pkix
Subject: RE: Three short fixes
=09
=09

I would have thought audio is a more constrained problem for =
verification than images. Saying you can build a procedure which =
verifies the rights someone to assert "foo bar" but you have difficulty =
building a procedure where someone verifies a wav file contains someone =
reading the text "foo bar" seems hard to believe. However the set of =
logotypes defined by 3709 is extensible so you can define whatever =
logotypes you want for the audio browsers and it does not need workgroup =
input.

=20

From: Hallam-Baker, Phillip [mailto:[email-masked]]=20
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 3:39 PM
To: Trevor Freeman; [email-masked]; pkix
Subject: RE: Three short fixes

=20

Talking to folk it appears that audio is useful but not enough.=20

=20

How do I develop authentication criteria for audio? I am having a =
difficult enough time with images. And it also tips into the language =
issue.

=20

I can't render audio in braille for example. If it is in text or an =
X.500 DN I can render it in any medium I need.

=20

=20

=20

________________________________

From: [email-masked] =
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Trevor Freeman
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 3:39 PM
To: [email-masked]; Hallam-Baker, Phillip; 'pkix'
Subject: RE: Three short fixes

Yes, RFC3709 already supports audio formats which was specifically =
added for accessibility scenarios such as visually impaired users.

=20

From: [email-masked] =
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Turner, Sean P.
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 11:44 AM
To: 'Hallam-Baker, Phillip'; 'pkix'
Subject: RE: Three short fixes

=20

Phil,

=20

For the logos, can't we just use the logo types RFC =
(http://ietf.org/rfc/rfc3709.txt).

=20

spt

=20

________________________________

From: [email-masked] =
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Hallam-Baker, Phillip
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 1:37 PM
To: pkix
Subject: Three short fixes

Work in the w3C Web Security Context group and elsewhere has prompted =
me to consider that we need to take the necessary steps to allow the =
following information to be encoded in certificates in a consistent =
manner:

=20

1) Text Representation of Community Logos

=20

This is an accessibility issue. If a certificate is issued with an =
FDIC community logo in it there has to be a way to present this =
information to blind users, users with an audio browser, etc. etc.=20

=20

One simple fix would be to simply allow for text/plain as a =
community logo slot. Alternatively we could encode the information in =
the image itself. Alternatively we could specify an extension OID that =
simply takes a list of community DNs.

=20

This is not a problem for either the subject or the issuer since =
there are already=20

=20

2) Member Since attribute

=20

This attribute would take a date as a parameter and would encode =
the first date at which the certified entity was issued a credential. =
The exact interpretation of this would be left to the CPS of the =
certificate issuer.

=20

3) No Padlock Icon attribute

=20

This attribute would allow a certificate to say that no user =
indication should be specified in the chrome, nor should any nag =
screens. It would be an option that the issuing CA would put in at their =
discretion.

=20

The need for this is to allow a CA to support a wide range of =
applications which require encryption but require even less =
authentication than current schemes such as domain validated certs. For =
example self signed certificates, certificates issued to embedded =
hardware, etc. etc.

=20

What I want to do is to get us to the point where the browser =
authors feel comfortable with a user experience that does not contain =
the nag screens that disfigure current schemes. In many cases all that =
is required is to turn on encryption. The user does not need to be told =
that the certificate has expired, has been issued by an unknown CA or =
any of the usual nonsense. just don't tell the user that its safe in the =
first place and the browser does not need to say that it is dangerous.

=20

Clearly this attribute is unnecessary from a technical point of =
view. From a market point of view it is essential if we are going to =
ensure that applications are doing the right thing. The padlock icon has =
some pretty strong semantics. Many applications require less. We are not =
going to get everyone who currently has a padlock certificate to get a =
green bar cert. So lets serve the applications that require even less =
than the padlock without diluting the padlock semantics further.

=20

=20

Before writing up a draft I would like to guage whether folk feel =
there is a need for any of these and if so what the likely level of =
contention is, whether it can be completed within PKIX or should it be a =
personal submission.

=20

Main thing I want here is the reservation of the OIDs under a neutral, =
non VeriSign arc. I don't think that the rest of the industry would feel =
comfortable using VeriSign OIDs and VeriSign might not be comfortable =
with them doing so either.

=20

We are definitely going to require the first, the second seems to be =
considered a 'no brainer' since it is information that every CA holds, =
that is not currently provided to the user and is very very effective at =
providing security context.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C7A85B.EEB36611
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I already have an authentication process for an =
X.500 DN.=20
Seems like that is going to be the most efficient=20
scheme.

From: [email-masked] =

[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Trevor=20
Freeman
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 7:42 PM
To:=20
Hallam-Baker, Phillip; [email-masked]; pkix
Subject: RE: =
Three=20
short fixes

I=20
would have thought audio is a more constrained problem for =
verification than=20
images. Saying you can build a procedure which verifies the rights =
someone to=20
assert =93foo bar=94 but you have difficulty building a procedure =
where someone=20
verifies a wav file contains someone reading the text =93foo bar=94 =
seems hard to=20
believe. However the set of logotypes defined by 3709 is extensible so =
you can=20
define whatever logotypes you want for the audio browsers and it does =
not need=20
workgroup input.

From: =
Hallam-Baker,=20
Phillip [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Monday, June 04, =
2007=20
3:39 PM
To: Trevor Freeman; [email-masked];=20
pkix
Subject: RE: Three short=20
fixes

Talking=20
to folk it appears that audio is useful but not enough. =

How do=20
I develop authentication criteria for audio? I am having a difficult =
enough=20
time with images. And it also tips into the language=20
issue.

I=20
can't render audio in braille for example. If it is in text or an =
X.500 DN I=20
can render it in any medium I need.

From:=20
[email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] =
On=20
Behalf Of Trevor Freeman
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 =
3:39=20
PM
To: [email-masked]; Hallam-Baker, Phillip;=20
'pkix'
Subject: RE: Three short =
fixes

Yes,=20
RFC3709 already supports audio formats which was specifically added =
for=20
accessibility scenarios such as visually impaired=20
users.

From:=20
[email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] =
On=20
Behalf Of Turner, Sean P.
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 =
11:44=20
AM
To: 'Hallam-Baker, Phillip'; 'pkix'
Subject: =
RE:=20
Three short fixes

Phil,

For=20
the logos, can't we just use the logo types RFC (http://ietf.org/rfc/rfc3709.txt<=
/A>).

spt

From:=20
[email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] =
On=20
Behalf Of Hallam-Baker, Phillip
Sent: Monday, June 04, =
2007=20
1:37 PM
To: pkix
Subject: Three short=20
fixes

Work in =
the w3C=20
Web Security Context group and elsewhere has prompted me to consider =
that we=20
need to take the necessary steps to allow the following information =
to be=20
encoded in certificates in a consistent =
manner:

1) Text =

Representation of Community =
Logos

This is =
an=20
accessibility issue. If a certificate is issued with an FDIC =
community logo=20
in it there has to be a way to present this information to blind =
users,=20
users with an audio browser, etc. etc.

One =
simple fix=20
would be to simply allow for text/plain as a community logo slot.=20
Alternatively we could encode the information in the image itself.=20
Alternatively we could specify an extension OID that simply takes a =
list of=20
community DNs.

This is =
not a=20
problem for either the subject or the issuer since there are already =

2) =
Member Since=20
attribute

This =
attribute=20
would take a date as a parameter and would encode the first date at =
which=20
the certified entity was issued a credential. The exact =
interpretation of=20
this would be left to the CPS of the certificate=20
issuer.

3) No =
Padlock=20
Icon attribute

This =
attribute=20
would allow a certificate to say that no user indication should be =
specified=20
in the chrome, nor should any nag screens. It would be an option =
that the=20
issuing CA would put in at their =
discretion.

The =
need for this=20
is to allow a CA to support a wide range of applications =
which require=20
encryption but require even less authentication than current schemes =
such as=20
domain validated certs. For example self signed certificates, =
certificates=20
issued to embedded hardware, etc. etc.

What I =
want to do=20
is to get us to the point where the browser authors feel comfortable =
with a=20
user experience that does not contain the nag screens that disfigure =
current=20
schemes. In many cases all that is required is to turn on =
encryption. The=20
user does not need to be told that the certificate has expired, has =
been=20
issued by an unknown CA or any of the usual nonsense. just don't =
tell the=20
user that its safe in the first place and the browser does not need =
to say=20
that it is dangerous.

Clearly =
this=20
attribute is unnecessary from a technical point of view. From a =
market point=20
of view it is essential if we are going to ensure that applications =
are=20
doing the right thing. The padlock icon has some pretty strong =
semantics.=20
Many applications require less. We are not going to get everyone who =

currently has a padlock certificate to get a green bar cert. So lets =
serve=20
the applications that require even less than the padlock without =
diluting=20
the padlock semantics further.

Before =
writing up=20
a draft I would like to guage whether folk feel there is a need for =
any of=20
these and if so what the likely level of contention is, whether it =
can be=20
completed within PKIX or should it be a personal=20
submission.

Main =
thing I want=20
here is the reservation of the OIDs under a neutral, non VeriSign =
arc. I=20
don't think that the rest of the industry would feel comfortable =
using=20
VeriSign OIDs and VeriSign might not be comfortable with them doing =
so=20
either.

We are =
definitely=20
going to require the first, the second seems to be considered a 'no =
brainer'=20
since it is information that every CA holds, that is not currently =
provided=20
to the user and is very very effective at providing security=20
=
context.

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From: Thomas Pornin
To: pkix
Subject: Re: Three short fixes
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
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On Mon, Jun 04, 2007 at 05:01:39PM -0400, Kemp, David P. wrote:
> I do not believe PKIX should sponsor an attribute that tells a
> certificate user to "ignore this certificate", e.g. "accept this
> certificate even if it cannot be validated".

In all generality, the public key represented in a certificate is
obtained as a byproduct of path validation: for DSA-like public keys,
the public key parameters may be inherited from certificates higher in
the path. A stand-alone certificate may not contain by itself enough
data to represent a complete and usable public key. Of course, most
certificates in the wild contain RSA public keys, which are
self-contained. Nonetheless, using the contents of certificates outside
of the context of a certificate path is a kind of paradigm shift from
what X.509 usually does.

> Saying "but TLS won't work without certificates" is not a convincing
> argument - the TLS working group has made decisions regarding
> unauthenticated (and/or unencrypted) ciphersuites, and the place to
> revisit those decisions is there, not PKIX.

TLS 1.1 (RFC 4346) still documents the "DH_anon" ciphersuites which
allow for unauthenticated key exchange. They are marked as deprecated
because they are vulnerable to man-in-the-middle attacks (and you have a
quite unusual attack model if encryption is needed by active attacks are
not to be feared). But they still exist. Ideally, additional "RSA_anon"
cipher suites would be added, because RSA key exchange makes it much
easier for megahertz-impaired clients.

--Thomas Pornin

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From: Trevor Freeman
To: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" , "[email-masked]" , pkix
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 16:42:10 -0700
Subject: RE: Three short fixes
Thread-Topic: Three short fixes
Thread-Index: Acemzu8J1FtF9cTgR/K0AnGIU7jXbgACTK/wAAHStvAABcpHsAACMPXg
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I would have thought audio is a more constrained problem for verification t=
han images. Saying you can build a procedure which verifies the rights some=
one to assert "foo bar" but you have difficulty building a procedure where =
someone verifies a wav file contains someone reading the text "foo bar" see=
ms hard to believe. However the set of logotypes defined by 3709 is extensi=
ble so you can define whatever logotypes you want for the audio browsers an=
d it does not need workgroup input.

From: Hallam-Baker, Phillip [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 3:39 PM
To: Trevor Freeman; [email-masked]; pkix
Subject: RE: Three short fixes

Talking to folk it appears that audio is useful but not enough.

How do I develop authentication criteria for audio? I am having a difficult=
enough time with images. And it also tips into the language issue.

I can't render audio in braille for example. If it is in text or an X.500 D=
N I can render it in any medium I need.

________________________________
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On=
Behalf Of Trevor Freeman
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 3:39 PM
To: [email-masked]; Hallam-Baker, Phillip; 'pkix'
Subject: RE: Three short fixes
Yes, RFC3709 already supports audio formats which was specifically added fo=
r accessibility scenarios such as visually impaired users.

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On=
Behalf Of Turner, Sean P.
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 11:44 AM
To: 'Hallam-Baker, Phillip'; 'pkix'
Subject: RE: Three short fixes

Phil,

For the logos, can't we just use the logo types RFC (http://ietf.org/rfc/rf=
c3709.txt).

spt

________________________________
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On=
Behalf Of Hallam-Baker, Phillip
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 1:37 PM
To: pkix
Subject: Three short fixes
Work in the w3C Web Security Context group and elsewhere has prompted me to=
consider that we need to take the necessary steps to allow the following i=
nformation to be encoded in certificates in a consistent manner:

1) Text Representation of Community Logos

This is an accessibility issue. If a certificate is issued with an FDIC=
community logo in it there has to be a way to present this information to =
blind users, users with an audio browser, etc. etc.

One simple fix would be to simply allow for text/plain as a community l=
ogo slot. Alternatively we could encode the information in the image itself=
. Alternatively we could specify an extension OID that simply takes a list =
of community DNs.

This is not a problem for either the subject or the issuer since there =
are already

2) Member Since attribute

This attribute would take a date as a parameter and would encode the fi=
rst date at which the certified entity was issued a credential. The exact i=
nterpretation of this would be left to the CPS of the certificate issuer.

3) No Padlock Icon attribute

This attribute would allow a certificate to say that no user indication=
should be specified in the chrome, nor should any nag screens. It would be=
an option that the issuing CA would put in at their discretion.

The need for this is to allow a CA to support a wide range of applicati=
ons which require encryption but require even less authentication than curr=
ent schemes such as domain validated certs. For example self signed certifi=
cates, certificates issued to embedded hardware, etc. etc.

What I want to do is to get us to the point where the browser authors f=
eel comfortable with a user experience that does not contain the nag screen=
s that disfigure current schemes. In many cases all that is required is to =
turn on encryption. The user does not need to be told that the certificate =
has expired, has been issued by an unknown CA or any of the usual nonsense.=
just don't tell the user that its safe in the first place and the browser =
does not need to say that it is dangerous.

Clearly this attribute is unnecessary from a technical point of view. F=
rom a market point of view it is essential if we are going to ensure that a=
pplications are doing the right thing. The padlock icon has some pretty str=
ong semantics. Many applications require less. We are not going to get ever=
yone who currently has a padlock certificate to get a green bar cert. So le=
ts serve the applications that require even less than the padlock without d=
iluting the padlock semantics further.

Before writing up a draft I would like to guage whether folk feel there is =
a need for any of these and if so what the likely level of contention is, w=
hether it can be completed within PKIX or should it be a personal submissio=
n.

Main thing I want here is the reservation of the OIDs under a neutral, non =
VeriSign arc. I don't think that the rest of the industry would feel comfor=
table using VeriSign OIDs and VeriSign might not be comfortable with them d=
oing so either.

We are definitely going to require the first, the second seems to be consid=
ered a 'no brainer' since it is information that every CA holds, that is no=
t currently provided to the user and is very very effective at providing se=
curity context.

--_000_E1D42DFE30883B488A5BEFC1801FA2DC91D46AD150DFGRTDANEMSGe_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I would have thought audio is a more constrained problem for
verification than images. Saying you can build a procedure which verifies t=
he rights
someone to assert “foo bar” but you have difficulty building a =
procedure
where someone verifies a wav file contains someone reading the text “=
foo bar”
seems hard to believe. However the set of logotypes defined by 3709 is exte=
nsible
so you can define whatever logotypes you want for the audio browsers and it=
does
not need workgroup input.

From: Hallam-Baker,
Phillip [mailto:[email-masked]]

Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 3:39 PM

To: Trevor Freeman; [email-masked]; pkix

Subject: RE: Three short fixes

Talking to folk it appears that audio is useful but not enough.=

How do I develop authentication criteria for audio? I am having=
a
difficult enough time with images. And it also tips into the language issue=
.

I can't render audio in braille for example. If it is in text o=
r an
X.500 DN I can render it in any medium I need.

From: [email-masked]
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Trevor Freeman
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 3:39 PM

To: [email-masked]; Hallam-Baker, Phillip; 'pkix'

Subject: RE: Three short fixes

Yes, RFC3709 already supports audio formats which was
specifically added for accessibility scenarios such as visually impaired us=
ers.

From:
[email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Be=
half
Of Turner, Sean P.

Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 11:44 AM

To: 'Hallam-Baker, Phillip'; 'pkix'

Subject: RE: Three short fixes

Phil,

For the logos, can't we just use the logo types RFC (http://ietf.org/rfc/rfc3709.txt).

spt

From: [email-masked]
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Hallam-Baker, Phi=
llip

Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 1:37 PM

To: pkix

Subject: Three short fixes

Work
in the w3C Web Security Context group and elsewhere has prompted me to cons=
ider
that we need to take the necessary steps to allow the following information=
to
be encoded in certificates in a consistent manner:

1)
Text Representation of Community Logos

This is an accessibility issue. If a certificate is
issued with an FDIC community logo in it there has to be a way to present t=
his
information to blind users, users with an audio browser, etc. etc. <=
o:p>

One simple fix would be to simply allow for text/plai=
n as
a community logo slot. Alternatively we could encode the information in the
image itself. Alternatively we could specify an extension OID that simply t=
akes
a list of community DNs.

This is not a problem for either the subject or the
issuer since there are already

2)
Member Since attribute

This attribute would take a date as a parameter and w=
ould
encode the first date at which the certified entity was issued a credential=
.
The exact interpretation of this would be left to the CPS of the certificat=
e
issuer.

3)
No Padlock Icon attribute

This attribute would allow a certificate to say that =
no
user indication should be specified in the chrome, nor should any nag scree=
ns.
It would be an option that the issuing CA would put in at their discretion.=

The need for this is to allow a CA to support a wide
range of applications which require encryption but require even less
authentication than current schemes such as domain validated certs. For exa=
mple
self signed certificates, certificates issued to embedded hardware, etc. et=
c.

What I want to do is to get us to the point where the
browser authors feel comfortable with a user experience that does not conta=
in
the nag screens that disfigure current schemes. In many cases all that is
required is to turn on encryption. The user does not need to be told that t=
he
certificate has expired, has been issued by an unknown CA or any of the usu=
al
nonsense. just don't tell the user that its safe in the first place and the
browser does not need to say that it is dangerous.

Clearly this attribute is unnecessary from a technica=
l
point of view. From a market point of view it is essential if we are going =
to
ensure that applications are doing the right thing. The padlock icon has so=
me
pretty strong semantics. Many applications require less. We are not going t=
o
get everyone who currently has a padlock certificate to get a green bar cer=
t.
So lets serve the applications that require even less than the padlock with=
out
diluting the padlock semantics further.

Before
writing up a draft I would like to guage whether folk feel there is a need =
for
any of these and if so what the likely level of contention is, whether it c=
an
be completed within PKIX or should it be a personal submission.=

Main
thing I want here is the reservation of the OIDs under a neutral, non VeriS=
ign
arc. I don't think that the rest of the industry would feel comfortable usi=
ng
VeriSign OIDs and VeriSign might not be comfortable with them doing so eith=
er.

We
are definitely going to require the first, the second seems to be considere=
d a
'no brainer' since it is information that every CA holds, that is not curre=
ntly
provided to the user and is very very effective at providing security conte=
xt.

--_000_E1D42DFE30883B488A5BEFC1801FA2DC91D46AD150DFGRTDANEMSGe_--

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Subject: RE: Three short fixes
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From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip"
To: "Trevor Freeman" , , "pkix"
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Talking to folk it appears that audio is useful but not enough.=20
=20
How do I develop authentication criteria for audio? I am having a =
difficult enough time with images. And it also tips into the language =
issue.
=20
I can't render audio in braille for example. If it is in text or an =
X.500 DN I can render it in any medium I need.
=20
=20

________________________________

From: [email-masked] =
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Trevor Freeman
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 3:39 PM
To: [email-masked]; Hallam-Baker, Phillip; 'pkix'
Subject: RE: Three short fixes
=09
=09

Yes, RFC3709 already supports audio formats which was specifically =
added for accessibility scenarios such as visually impaired users.

=20

From: [email-masked] =
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Turner, Sean P.
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 11:44 AM
To: 'Hallam-Baker, Phillip'; 'pkix'
Subject: RE: Three short fixes

=20

Phil,

=20

For the logos, can't we just use the logo types RFC =
(http://ietf.org/rfc/rfc3709.txt).

=20

spt

=20

________________________________

From: [email-masked] =
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Hallam-Baker, Phillip
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 1:37 PM
To: pkix
Subject: Three short fixes

Work in the w3C Web Security Context group and elsewhere has prompted =
me to consider that we need to take the necessary steps to allow the =
following information to be encoded in certificates in a consistent =
manner:

=20

1) Text Representation of Community Logos

=20

This is an accessibility issue. If a certificate is issued with an =
FDIC community logo in it there has to be a way to present this =
information to blind users, users with an audio browser, etc. etc.=20

=20

One simple fix would be to simply allow for text/plain as a =
community logo slot. Alternatively we could encode the information in =
the image itself. Alternatively we could specify an extension OID that =
simply takes a list of community DNs.

=20

This is not a problem for either the subject or the issuer since =
there are already=20

=20

2) Member Since attribute

=20

This attribute would take a date as a parameter and would encode =
the first date at which the certified entity was issued a credential. =
The exact interpretation of this would be left to the CPS of the =
certificate issuer.

=20

3) No Padlock Icon attribute

=20

This attribute would allow a certificate to say that no user =
indication should be specified in the chrome, nor should any nag =
screens. It would be an option that the issuing CA would put in at their =
discretion.

=20

The need for this is to allow a CA to support a wide range of =
applications which require encryption but require even less =
authentication than current schemes such as domain validated certs. For =
example self signed certificates, certificates issued to embedded =
hardware, etc. etc.

=20

What I want to do is to get us to the point where the browser =
authors feel comfortable with a user experience that does not contain =
the nag screens that disfigure current schemes. In many cases all that =
is required is to turn on encryption. The user does not need to be told =
that the certificate has expired, has been issued by an unknown CA or =
any of the usual nonsense. just don't tell the user that its safe in the =
first place and the browser does not need to say that it is dangerous.

=20

Clearly this attribute is unnecessary from a technical point of =
view. From a market point of view it is essential if we are going to =
ensure that applications are doing the right thing. The padlock icon has =
some pretty strong semantics. Many applications require less. We are not =
going to get everyone who currently has a padlock certificate to get a =
green bar cert. So lets serve the applications that require even less =
than the padlock without diluting the padlock semantics further.

=20

=20

Before writing up a draft I would like to guage whether folk feel there =
is a need for any of these and if so what the likely level of contention =
is, whether it can be completed within PKIX or should it be a personal =
submission.

=20

Main thing I want here is the reservation of the OIDs under a neutral, =
non VeriSign arc. I don't think that the rest of the industry would feel =
comfortable using VeriSign OIDs and VeriSign might not be comfortable =
with them doing so either.

=20

We are definitely going to require the first, the second seems to be =
considered a 'no brainer' since it is information that every CA holds, =
that is not currently provided to the user and is very very effective at =
providing security context.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C7A6F9.282F6B7B
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Talking to folk it appears that audio is useful =
but not=20
enough.

How do I develop authentication criteria for =
audio? I am=20
having a difficult enough time with images. And it also tips into the =
language=20
issue.

I can't render audio in braille for example. If =
it is in=20
text or an X.500 DN I can render it in any medium I =
need.

From: [email-masked] =

[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Trevor=20
Freeman
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 3:39 PM
To:=20
[email-masked]; Hallam-Baker, Phillip; 'pkix'
Subject: RE: =
Three=20
short fixes

Yes,=20
RFC3709 already supports audio formats which was specifically added =
for=20
accessibility scenarios such as visually impaired =
users.

From:=20
[email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] =
On=20
Behalf Of Turner, Sean P.
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 =
11:44=20
AM
To: 'Hallam-Baker, Phillip'; 'pkix'
Subject: =
RE: Three=20
short fixes

Phil,

For=20
the logos, can't we just use the logo types RFC (http://ietf.org/rfc/rfc3709.txt<=
/A>).

spt

From:=20
[email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] =
On=20
Behalf Of Hallam-Baker, Phillip
Sent: Monday, June 04, =
2007 1:37=20
PM
To: pkix
Subject: Three short=20
fixes

Work in =
the w3C Web=20
Security Context group and elsewhere has prompted me to consider that =
we need=20
to take the necessary steps to allow the following information to be =
encoded=20
in certificates in a consistent manner:

1) Text=20
Representation of Community Logos

This is =
an=20
accessibility issue. If a certificate is issued with an FDIC community =
logo in=20
it there has to be a way to present this information to blind users, =
users=20
with an audio browser, etc. etc.

One =
simple fix=20
would be to simply allow for text/plain as a community logo slot.=20
Alternatively we could encode the information in the image itself.=20
Alternatively we could specify an extension OID that simply takes a =
list of=20
community DNs.

This is =
not a=20
problem for either the subject or the issuer since there are already=20

2) Member =
Since=20
attribute

This =
attribute=20
would take a date as a parameter and would encode the first date at =
which the=20
certified entity was issued a credential. The exact interpretation of =
this=20
would be left to the CPS of the certificate=20
issuer.

3) No =
Padlock Icon=20
attribute

This =
attribute=20
would allow a certificate to say that no user indication should be =
specified=20
in the chrome, nor should any nag screens. It would be an option that =
the=20
issuing CA would put in at their =
discretion.

The need =
for this=20
is to allow a CA to support a wide range of applications =
which require=20
encryption but require even less authentication than current schemes =
such as=20
domain validated certs. For example self signed certificates, =
certificates=20
issued to embedded hardware, etc. etc.

What I =
want to do=20
is to get us to the point where the browser authors feel comfortable =
with a=20
user experience that does not contain the nag screens that disfigure =
current=20
schemes. In many cases all that is required is to turn on encryption. =
The user=20
does not need to be told that the certificate has expired, has been =
issued by=20
an unknown CA or any of the usual nonsense. just don't tell the user =
that its=20
safe in the first place and the browser does not need to say that it =
is=20
dangerous.

Clearly =
this=20
attribute is unnecessary from a technical point of view. From a market =
point=20
of view it is essential if we are going to ensure that applications =
are doing=20
the right thing. The padlock icon has some pretty strong semantics. =
Many=20
applications require less. We are not going to get everyone who =
currently has=20
a padlock certificate to get a green bar cert. So lets serve the =
applications=20
that require even less than the padlock without diluting the padlock =
semantics=20
further.

Before =
writing up a=20
draft I would like to guage whether folk feel there is a need for any =
of these=20
and if so what the likely level of contention is, whether it can be =
completed=20
within PKIX or should it be a personal =
submission.

Main =
thing I want=20
here is the reservation of the OIDs under a neutral, non VeriSign arc. =
I don't=20
think that the rest of the industry would feel comfortable using =
VeriSign OIDs=20
and VeriSign might not be comfortable with them doing so=20
either.

We are =
definitely=20
going to require the first, the second seems to be considered a 'no =
brainer'=20
since it is information that every CA holds, that is not currently =
provided to=20
the user and is very very effective at providing security=20
=
context.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C7A6F9.282F6B7B--

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Subject: RE: Three short fixes
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 17:01:39 -0400
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References: <[email-masked]>
From: "Kemp, David P."
To: "pkix"
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=20

1) Text Representation of Community Logos

=20

Although RFC3709 currently has no support for ALT text,
LogotypeImageInfo and LogotypeAudioInfo could easily be modified to
include a text description field after the language field. Although
audio could be used for visually impaired users, I agree with also
having a text option usable with screenreaders (and Lynx).

=20

2) Member Since attribute

=20

No objections to creating a PKIX OID for this. Where would it be used -
as a directory attribute for subject alternative name? A new PKIX
private extension seems like overkill for this purpose.

=20

3) No Padlock Icon attribute

=20

I do not believe PKIX should sponsor an attribute that tells a
certificate user to "ignore this certificate", e.g. "accept this
certificate even if it cannot be validated". I don't object to
applications supporting unauthenticated encryption while making no
security claims. But if the application is not going to authenticate an
encryption key, then the application should not be transmitting or
consuming certificates in the first place. Saying "but TLS won't work
without certificates" is not a convincing argument - the TLS working
group has made decisions regarding unauthenticated (and/or unencrypted)
ciphersuites, and the place to revisit those decisions is there, not
PKIX.

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1) Text Representation of Community =
Logos

=

Although RFC3709 currently has no =
support
for ALT text, LogotypeImageInfo and LogotypeAudioInfo could easily be =
modified
to include a text description field after the language field.  =
Although audio
could be used for visually impaired users, I agree with also having a =
text
option usable with screenreaders (and =
Lynx).

2) Member Since =
attribute

No objections to creating a PKIX =
OID for
this.  Where would it be used – as a directory attribute for =
subject alternative
name?  A new PKIX private extension seems like overkill for this =
purpose.

3) No Padlock Icon =
attribute

=

I do not believe PKIX should =
sponsor an
attribute that tells a certificate user to “ignore this =
certificate”,
e.g. “accept this certificate even if it cannot be =
validated”.  I
don’t object to applications supporting unauthenticated encryption =
while
making no security claims.  But if the application is not going to =
authenticate
an encryption key, then the application should not be transmitting or =
consuming
certificates in the first place.  Saying “but TLS won’t =
work
without certificates” is not a convincing argument – the TLS =
working
group has made decisions regarding unauthenticated (and/or unencrypted)
ciphersuites, and the place to revisit those decisions is there, not =
PKIX.

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From: Trevor Freeman
To: "[email-masked]" , "'Hallam-Baker, Phillip'" , "'pkix'"
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 12:39:06 -0700
Subject: RE: Three short fixes
Thread-Topic: Three short fixes
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Yes, RFC3709 already supports audio formats which was specifically added fo=
r accessibility scenarios such as visually impaired users.

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On=
Behalf Of Turner, Sean P.
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 11:44 AM
To: 'Hallam-Baker, Phillip'; 'pkix'
Subject: RE: Three short fixes

Phil,

For the logos, can't we just use the logo types RFC (http://ietf.org/rfc/rf=
c3709.txt).

spt

________________________________
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On=
Behalf Of Hallam-Baker, Phillip
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 1:37 PM
To: pkix
Subject: Three short fixes
Work in the w3C Web Security Context group and elsewhere has prompted me to=
consider that we need to take the necessary steps to allow the following i=
nformation to be encoded in certificates in a consistent manner:

1) Text Representation of Community Logos

This is an accessibility issue. If a certificate is issued with an FDIC=
community logo in it there has to be a way to present this information to =
blind users, users with an audio browser, etc. etc.

One simple fix would be to simply allow for text/plain as a community l=
ogo slot. Alternatively we could encode the information in the image itself=
. Alternatively we could specify an extension OID that simply takes a list =
of community DNs.

This is not a problem for either the subject or the issuer since there =
are already

2) Member Since attribute

This attribute would take a date as a parameter and would encode the fi=
rst date at which the certified entity was issued a credential. The exact i=
nterpretation of this would be left to the CPS of the certificate issuer.

3) No Padlock Icon attribute

This attribute would allow a certificate to say that no user indication=
should be specified in the chrome, nor should any nag screens. It would be=
an option that the issuing CA would put in at their discretion.

The need for this is to allow a CA to support a wide range of applicati=
ons which require encryption but require even less authentication than curr=
ent schemes such as domain validated certs. For example self signed certifi=
cates, certificates issued to embedded hardware, etc. etc.

What I want to do is to get us to the point where the browser authors f=
eel comfortable with a user experience that does not contain the nag screen=
s that disfigure current schemes. In many cases all that is required is to =
turn on encryption. The user does not need to be told that the certificate =
has expired, has been issued by an unknown CA or any of the usual nonsense.=
just don't tell the user that its safe in the first place and the browser =
does not need to say that it is dangerous.

Clearly this attribute is unnecessary from a technical point of view. F=
rom a market point of view it is essential if we are going to ensure that a=
pplications are doing the right thing. The padlock icon has some pretty str=
ong semantics. Many applications require less. We are not going to get ever=
yone who currently has a padlock certificate to get a green bar cert. So le=
ts serve the applications that require even less than the padlock without d=
iluting the padlock semantics further.

Before writing up a draft I would like to guage whether folk feel there is =
a need for any of these and if so what the likely level of contention is, w=
hether it can be completed within PKIX or should it be a personal submissio=
n.

Main thing I want here is the reservation of the OIDs under a neutral, non =
VeriSign arc. I don't think that the rest of the industry would feel comfor=
table using VeriSign OIDs and VeriSign might not be comfortable with them d=
oing so either.

We are definitely going to require the first, the second seems to be consid=
ered a 'no brainer' since it is information that every CA holds, that is no=
t currently provided to the user and is very very effective at providing se=
curity context.

--_000_E1D42DFE30883B488A5BEFC1801FA2DC91D46ACF8EDFGRTDANEMSGe_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yes, RFC3709 already supports audio formats which was specif=
ically
added for accessibility scenarios such as visually impaired users.

From: owner-ietf-pk=
[email-masked]
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Turner, Sean P.
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 11:44 AM

To: 'Hallam-Baker, Phillip'; 'pkix'

Subject: RE: Three short fixes

Phil,

For the logos, can't we just use the logo types RFC (http://ietf.org/rfc/rfc3709.txt).

spt

From: [email-masked]
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Hallam-Baker, Phi=
llip

Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 1:37 PM

To: pkix

Subject: Three short fixes

Work
in the w3C Web Security Context group and elsewhere has prompted me to cons=
ider
that we need to take the necessary steps to allow the following information=
to
be encoded in certificates in a consistent manner:

1)
Text Representation of Community Logos

This is an accessibility issue. If a certificate is
issued with an FDIC community logo in it there has to be a way to present t=
his
information to blind users, users with an audio browser, etc. etc. <=
o:p>

One simple fix would be to simply allow for text/plai=
n as
a community logo slot. Alternatively we could encode the information in the
image itself. Alternatively we could specify an extension OID that simply t=
akes
a list of community DNs.

This is not a problem for either the subject or the
issuer since there are already

2)
Member Since attribute

This attribute would take a date as a parameter and w=
ould
encode the first date at which the certified entity was issued a credential=
.
The exact interpretation of this would be left to the CPS of the certificat=
e
issuer.

3)
No Padlock Icon attribute

This attribute would allow a certificate to say that =
no
user indication should be specified in the chrome, nor should any nag scree=
ns.
It would be an option that the issuing CA would put in at their discretion.=

The need for this is to allow a CA to support a wide
range of applications which require encryption but require even less
authentication than current schemes such as domain validated certs. For exa=
mple
self signed certificates, certificates issued to embedded hardware, etc. et=
c.

What I want to do is to get us to the point where the
browser authors feel comfortable with a user experience that does not conta=
in
the nag screens that disfigure current schemes. In many cases all that is
required is to turn on encryption. The user does not need to be told that t=
he
certificate has expired, has been issued by an unknown CA or any of the usu=
al
nonsense. just don't tell the user that its safe in the first place and the
browser does not need to say that it is dangerous.

Clearly this attribute is unnecessary from a technica=
l
point of view. From a market point of view it is essential if we are going =
to
ensure that applications are doing the right thing. The padlock icon has so=
me
pretty strong semantics. Many applications require less. We are not going t=
o
get everyone who currently has a padlock certificate to get a green bar cer=
t.
So lets serve the applications that require even less than the padlock with=
out
diluting the padlock semantics further.

Before
writing up a draft I would like to guage whether folk feel there is a need =
for
any of these and if so what the likely level of contention is, whether it c=
an
be completed within PKIX or should it be a personal submission.=

Main
thing I want here is the reservation of the OIDs under a neutral, non VeriS=
ign
arc. I don't think that the rest of the industry would feel comfortable usi=
ng
VeriSign OIDs and VeriSign might not be comfortable with them doing so eith=
er.

We
are definitely going to require the first, the second seems to be considere=
d a
'no brainer' since it is information that every CA holds, that is not curre=
ntly
provided to the user and is very very effective at providing security conte=
xt.

--_000_E1D42DFE30883B488A5BEFC1801FA2DC91D46ACF8EDFGRTDANEMSGe_--

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Subject: RE: Three short fixes
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 12:22:27 -0700
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From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip"
To: , "pkix"
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No, in case I am not being clear here,
=20
The assumption is that we issue a certificate with the FDIC and Equal =
Opportunity lender LOGOTYPE images as community logos.
=20
Now how do I provide the same information to a non sighted reader? For =
Issuer and Subject logos I just pull the info out of the cert issuer and =
subject. I need a way to express the same info in text as the LOGOTYPE =
contains.

________________________________

From: Turner, Sean P. [mailto:[email-masked]]=20
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 2:44 PM
To: Hallam-Baker, Phillip; 'pkix'
Subject: RE: Three short fixes
=09
=09
Phil,
=20
For the logos, can't we just use the logo types RFC =
(http://ietf.org/rfc/rfc3709.txt).
=20
spt

________________________________

From: [email-masked] =
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Hallam-Baker, Phillip
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 1:37 PM
To: pkix
Subject: Three short fixes
=09
=09
Work in the w3C Web Security Context group and elsewhere has prompted =
me to consider that we need to take the necessary steps to allow the =
following information to be encoded in certificates in a consistent =
manner:
=20
1) Text Representation of Community Logos
=20
This is an accessibility issue. If a certificate is issued with an =
FDIC community logo in it there has to be a way to present this =
information to blind users, users with an audio browser, etc. etc.=20
=20
One simple fix would be to simply allow for text/plain as a =
community logo slot. Alternatively we could encode the information in =
the image itself. Alternatively we could specify an extension OID that =
simply takes a list of community DNs.
=20
This is not a problem for either the subject or the issuer since =
there are already=20
=20
2) Member Since attribute
=20
This attribute would take a date as a parameter and would encode =
the first date at which the certified entity was issued a credential. =
The exact interpretation of this would be left to the CPS of the =
certificate issuer.
=20
3) No Padlock Icon attribute
=20
This attribute would allow a certificate to say that no user =
indication should be specified in the chrome, nor should any nag =
screens. It would be an option that the issuing CA would put in at their =
discretion.
=20
The need for this is to allow a CA to support a wide range of =
applications which require encryption but require even less =
authentication than current schemes such as domain validated certs. For =
example self signed certificates, certificates issued to embedded =
hardware, etc. etc.
=20
What I want to do is to get us to the point where the browser =
authors feel comfortable with a user experience that does not contain =
the nag screens that disfigure current schemes. In many cases all that =
is required is to turn on encryption. The user does not need to be told =
that the certificate has expired, has been issued by an unknown CA or =
any of the usual nonsense. just don't tell the user that its safe in the =
first place and the browser does not need to say that it is dangerous.
=20
Clearly this attribute is unnecessary from a technical point of =
view. From a market point of view it is essential if we are going to =
ensure that applications are doing the right thing. The padlock icon has =
some pretty strong semantics. Many applications require less. We are not =
going to get everyone who currently has a padlock certificate to get a =
green bar cert. So lets serve the applications that require even less =
than the padlock without diluting the padlock semantics further.
=20
=20
Before writing up a draft I would like to guage whether folk feel there =
is a need for any of these and if so what the likely level of contention =
is, whether it can be completed within PKIX or should it be a personal =
submission.
=20
Main thing I want here is the reservation of the OIDs under a neutral, =
non VeriSign arc. I don't think that the rest of the industry would feel =
comfortable using VeriSign OIDs and VeriSign might not be comfortable =
with them doing so either.
=20
We are definitely going to require the first, the second seems to be =
considered a 'no brainer' since it is information that every CA holds, =
that is not currently provided to the user and is very very effective at =
providing security context.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C7A6DD.DA444793
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

No, in case I am not being clear =
here,

The assumption is that we issue a certificate =
with the FDIC=20
and Equal Opportunity lender LOGOTYPE images as community=20
logos.

Now how do I provide the same information to a =
non sighted=20
reader? For Issuer and Subject logos I just pull the info out of the =
cert issuer=20
and subject. I need a way to express the same info in text as the =
LOGOTYPE=20
contains.

From: Turner, Sean P.=20
[mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 2:44=20
PM
To: Hallam-Baker, Phillip; 'pkix'
Subject: RE: =
Three=20
short fixes

Phil,

For the logos, can't we just use the logo =
types RFC (http://ietf.org/rfc/rfc3709.txt<=
/A>).

spt

From: [email-masked] =

[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of =
Hallam-Baker,=20
Phillip
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 1:37 PM
To:=20
pkix
Subject: Three short fixes

Work =
in the w3C=20
Web Security Context group and elsewhere has prompted me to consider =
that we=20
need to take the necessary steps to allow the following information to =
be=20
encoded in certificates in a consistent manner:

1) Text=20
Representation of Community Logos

This is an accessibility issue. If a certificate is issued =
with an FDIC=20
community logo in it there has to be a way to present this information =
to=20
blind users, users with an audio browser, etc. etc. =

One simple fix would be to simply allow for text/plain as a =
community=20
logo slot. Alternatively we could encode the information in the image =
itself.=20
Alternatively we could specify an extension OID that simply takes a =
list of=20
community DNs.

This is not a problem for either the subject or the issuer =
since there=20
are already

2) Member=20
Since attribute

This attribute would take a date as a parameter and would =
encode the=20
first date at which the certified entity was issued a credential. The =
exact=20
interpretation of this would be left to the CPS of the certificate=20
issuer.

3) No=20
Padlock Icon attribute

This attribute would allow a certificate to say that no user =
indication=20
should be specified in the chrome, nor should any nag screens. It =
would be an=20
option that the issuing CA would put in at their=20
discretion.

The need for this is to allow a CA to support a wide range of =

applications which require encryption but require even less=20
authentication than current schemes such as domain validated certs. =
For=20
example self signed certificates, certificates issued to embedded =
hardware,=20
etc. etc.

What I want to do is to get us to the point where the browser =
authors=20
feel comfortable with a user experience that does not contain the nag =
screens=20
that disfigure current schemes. In many cases all that is required is =
to turn=20
on encryption. The user does not need to be told that the certificate =
has=20
expired, has been issued by an unknown CA or any of the usual =
nonsense. just=20
don't tell the user that its safe in the first place and the browser =
does not=20
need to say that it is dangerous.

Clearly this attribute is unnecessary from a technical point =
of view.=20
From a market point of view it is essential if we are going to ensure =
that=20
applications are doing the right thing. The padlock icon has some =
pretty=20
strong semantics. Many applications require less. We are not going to =
get=20
everyone who currently has a padlock certificate to get a green bar =
cert. So=20
lets serve the applications that require even less than the padlock =
without=20
diluting the padlock semantics further.

Before writing up=20
a draft I would like to guage whether folk feel there is a need for =
any of=20
these and if so what the likely level of contention is, whether it can =
be=20
completed within PKIX or should it be a personal=20
submission.

Main =
thing I want=20
here is the reservation of the OIDs under a neutral, non VeriSign arc. =
I don't=20
think that the rest of the industry would feel comfortable using =
VeriSign OIDs=20
and VeriSign might not be comfortable with them doing so=20
either.

We =
are definitely=20
going to require the first, the second seems to be considered a 'no =
brainer'=20
since it is information that every CA holds, that is not currently =
provided to=20
the user and is very very effective at providing security=20
context.

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Reply-To:
From: "Turner, Sean P."
To: "'Hallam-Baker, Phillip'" , "'pkix'"
References: <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: Three short fixes
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 14:44:28 -0400
Organization: IECA, Inc.
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Phil,

For the logos, can't we just use the logo types RFC
(http://ietf.org/rfc/rfc3709.txt).

spt

_____

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of Hallam-Baker, Phillip
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 1:37 PM
To: pkix
Subject: Three short fixes

Work in the w3C Web Security Context group and elsewhere has prompted me to
consider that we need to take the necessary steps to allow the following
information to be encoded in certificates in a consistent manner:

1) Text Representation of Community Logos

This is an accessibility issue. If a certificate is issued with an FDIC
community logo in it there has to be a way to present this information to
blind users, users with an audio browser, etc. etc.

One simple fix would be to simply allow for text/plain as a community
logo slot. Alternatively we could encode the information in the image
itself. Alternatively we could specify an extension OID that simply takes a
list of community DNs.

This is not a problem for either the subject or the issuer since there
are already

2) Member Since attribute

This attribute would take a date as a parameter and would encode the
first date at which the certified entity was issued a credential. The exact
interpretation of this would be left to the CPS of the certificate issuer.

3) No Padlock Icon attribute

This attribute would allow a certificate to say that no user indication
should be specified in the chrome, nor should any nag screens. It would be
an option that the issuing CA would put in at their discretion.

The need for this is to allow a CA to support a wide range of
applications which require encryption but require even less authentication
than current schemes such as domain validated certs. For example self signed
certificates, certificates issued to embedded hardware, etc. etc.

What I want to do is to get us to the point where the browser authors
feel comfortable with a user experience that does not contain the nag
screens that disfigure current schemes. In many cases all that is required
is to turn on encryption. The user does not need to be told that the
certificate has expired, has been issued by an unknown CA or any of the
usual nonsense. just don't tell the user that its safe in the first place
and the browser does not need to say that it is dangerous.

Clearly this attribute is unnecessary from a technical point of view.
>From a market point of view it is essential if we are going to ensure that
applications are doing the right thing. The padlock icon has some pretty
strong semantics. Many applications require less. We are not going to get
everyone who currently has a padlock certificate to get a green bar cert. So
lets serve the applications that require even less than the padlock without
diluting the padlock semantics further.

Before writing up a draft I would like to guage whether folk feel there is a
need for any of these and if so what the likely level of contention is,
whether it can be completed within PKIX or should it be a personal
submission.

Main thing I want here is the reservation of the OIDs under a neutral, non
VeriSign arc. I don't think that the rest of the industry would feel
comfortable using VeriSign OIDs and VeriSign might not be comfortable with
them doing so either.

We are definitely going to require the first, the second seems to be
considered a 'no brainer' since it is information that every CA holds, that
is not currently provided to the user and is very very effective at
providing security context.

------=_NextPart_000_00DF_01C7A6B6.DB0F2510
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Phil,

For the logos, can't we just use the logo types =
RFC (http://ietf.org/rfc/rfc3709.txt<=
/A>).

spt

From: [email-masked]=20
[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Hallam-Baker,=20
Phillip
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 1:37 PM
To:=20
pkix
Subject: Three short fixes

Work =
in the w3C Web=20
Security Context group and elsewhere has prompted me to consider that we =
need to=20
take the necessary steps to allow the following information to be =
encoded in=20
certificates in a consistent manner:

1) Text=20
Representation of Community Logos

This is an accessibility issue. If a certificate is issued with =
an FDIC=20
community logo in it there has to be a way to present this information =
to blind=20
users, users with an audio browser, etc. etc.

One simple fix would be to simply allow for text/plain as a =
community=20
logo slot. Alternatively we could encode the information in the image =
itself.=20
Alternatively we could specify an extension OID that simply takes a list =
of=20
community DNs.

This is not a problem for either the subject or the issuer =
since there=20
are already

2) Member=20
Since attribute

This attribute would take a date as a parameter and would =
encode the=20
first date at which the certified entity was issued a credential. The =
exact=20
interpretation of this would be left to the CPS of the certificate=20
issuer.

3) No=20
Padlock Icon attribute

This attribute would allow a certificate to say that no user =
indication=20
should be specified in the chrome, nor should any nag screens. It would =
be an=20
option that the issuing CA would put in at their =
discretion.

The need for this is to allow a CA to support a wide range of=20
applications which require encryption but require even less =
authentication=20
than current schemes such as domain validated certs. For example self =
signed=20
certificates, certificates issued to embedded hardware, etc.=20
etc.

What I want to do is to get us to the point where the browser =
authors=20
feel comfortable with a user experience that does not contain the nag =
screens=20
that disfigure current schemes. In many cases all that is required is to =
turn on=20
encryption. The user does not need to be told that the certificate has =
expired,=20
has been issued by an unknown CA or any of the usual nonsense. just =
don't tell=20
the user that its safe in the first place and the browser does not need =
to say=20
that it is dangerous.

Clearly this attribute is unnecessary from a technical point of =
view.=20
>From a market point of view it is essential if we are going to ensure =
that=20
applications are doing the right thing. The padlock icon has some pretty =
strong=20
semantics. Many applications require less. We are not going to get =
everyone who=20
currently has a padlock certificate to get a green bar cert. So lets =
serve the=20
applications that require even less than the padlock without diluting =
the=20
padlock semantics further.

Before =
writing up a=20
draft I would like to guage whether folk feel there is a need for any of =
these=20
and if so what the likely level of contention is, whether it can be =
completed=20
within PKIX or should it be a personal submission.

Main =
thing I want=20
here is the reservation of the OIDs under a neutral, non VeriSign arc. I =
don't=20
think that the rest of the industry would feel comfortable using =
VeriSign OIDs=20
and VeriSign might not be comfortable with them doing so=20
either.

We are =
definitely=20
going to require the first, the second seems to be considered a 'no =
brainer'=20
since it is information that every CA holds, that is not currently =
provided to=20
the user and is very very effective at providing security=20
context.

------=_NextPart_000_00DF_01C7A6B6.DB0F2510--

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From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip"
To: "pkix"
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Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Work in the w3C Web Security Context group and elsewhere has prompted me =
to consider that we need to take the necessary steps to allow the =
following information to be encoded in certificates in a consistent =
manner:
=20
1) Text Representation of Community Logos
=20
This is an accessibility issue. If a certificate is issued with an =
FDIC community logo in it there has to be a way to present this =
information to blind users, users with an audio browser, etc. etc.=20
=20
One simple fix would be to simply allow for text/plain as a =
community logo slot. Alternatively we could encode the information in =
the image itself. Alternatively we could specify an extension OID that =
simply takes a list of community DNs.
=20
This is not a problem for either the subject or the issuer since =
there are already=20
=20
2) Member Since attribute
=20
This attribute would take a date as a parameter and would encode the =
first date at which the certified entity was issued a credential. The =
exact interpretation of this would be left to the CPS of the certificate =
issuer.
=20
3) No Padlock Icon attribute
=20
This attribute would allow a certificate to say that no user =
indication should be specified in the chrome, nor should any nag =
screens. It would be an option that the issuing CA would put in at their =
discretion.
=20
The need for this is to allow a CA to support a wide range of =
applications which require encryption but require even less =
authentication than current schemes such as domain validated certs. For =
example self signed certificates, certificates issued to embedded =
hardware, etc. etc.
=20
What I want to do is to get us to the point where the browser =
authors feel comfortable with a user experience that does not contain =
the nag screens that disfigure current schemes. In many cases all that =
is required is to turn on encryption. The user does not need to be told =
that the certificate has expired, has been issued by an unknown CA or =
any of the usual nonsense. just don't tell the user that its safe in the =
first place and the browser does not need to say that it is dangerous.
=20
Clearly this attribute is unnecessary from a technical point of =
view. From a market point of view it is essential if we are going to =
ensure that applications are doing the right thing. The padlock icon has =
some pretty strong semantics. Many applications require less. We are not =
going to get everyone who currently has a padlock certificate to get a =
green bar cert. So lets serve the applications that require even less =
than the padlock without diluting the padlock semantics further.
=20
=20
Before writing up a draft I would like to guage whether folk feel there =
is a need for any of these and if so what the likely level of contention =
is, whether it can be completed within PKIX or should it be a personal =
submission.
=20
Main thing I want here is the reservation of the OIDs under a neutral, =
non VeriSign arc. I don't think that the rest of the industry would feel =
comfortable using VeriSign OIDs and VeriSign might not be comfortable =
with them doing so either.
=20
We are definitely going to require the first, the second seems to be =
considered a 'no brainer' since it is information that every CA holds, =
that is not currently provided to the user and is very very effective at =
providing security context.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C7A6CF.18E753C3
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Work =
in the w3C Web=20
Security Context group and elsewhere has prompted me to consider that we =
need to=20
take the necessary steps to allow the following information to be =
encoded in=20
certificates in a consistent manner:

1) Text=20
Representation of Community Logos

This is an accessibility issue. If a certificate is issued with =
an FDIC=20
community logo in it there has to be a way to present this information =
to blind=20
users, users with an audio browser, etc. etc.

One simple fix would be to simply allow for text/plain as a =
community=20
logo slot. Alternatively we could encode the information in the image =
itself.=20
Alternatively we could specify an extension OID that simply takes a list =
of=20
community DNs.

This is not a problem for either the subject or the issuer =
since there=20
are already

2) Member=20
Since attribute

This attribute would take a date as a parameter and would =
encode the=20
first date at which the certified entity was issued a credential. The =
exact=20
interpretation of this would be left to the CPS of the certificate=20
issuer.

3) No=20
Padlock Icon attribute

This attribute would allow a certificate to say that no user =
indication=20
should be specified in the chrome, nor should any nag screens. It would =
be an=20
option that the issuing CA would put in at their =
discretion.

The need for this is to allow a CA to support a wide range of=20
applications which require encryption but require even less =
authentication=20
than current schemes such as domain validated certs. For example self =
signed=20
certificates, certificates issued to embedded hardware, etc.=20
etc.

What I want to do is to get us to the point where the browser =
authors=20
feel comfortable with a user experience that does not contain the nag =
screens=20
that disfigure current schemes. In many cases all that is required is to =
turn on=20
encryption. The user does not need to be told that the certificate has =
expired,=20
has been issued by an unknown CA or any of the usual nonsense. just =
don't tell=20
the user that its safe in the first place and the browser does not need =
to say=20
that it is dangerous.

Clearly this attribute is unnecessary from a technical point of =
view.=20
>From a market point of view it is essential if we are going to ensure =
that=20
applications are doing the right thing. The padlock icon has some pretty =
strong=20
semantics. Many applications require less. We are not going to get =
everyone who=20
currently has a padlock certificate to get a green bar cert. So lets =
serve the=20
applications that require even less than the padlock without diluting =
the=20
padlock semantics further.

Before =
writing up a=20
draft I would like to guage whether folk feel there is a need for any of =
these=20
and if so what the likely level of contention is, whether it can be =
completed=20
within PKIX or should it be a personal submission.

Main =
thing I want=20
here is the reservation of the OIDs under a neutral, non VeriSign arc. I =
don't=20
think that the rest of the industry would feel comfortable using =
VeriSign OIDs=20
and VeriSign might not be comfortable with them doing so=20
either.

We are =
definitely=20
going to require the first, the second seems to be considered a 'no =
brainer'=20
since it is information that every CA holds, that is not currently =
provided to=20
the user and is very very effective at providing security=20
context.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C7A6CF.18E753C3--