Subject: Re: [ppsp] [P2PSIP] Is P2PSIP RELOAD not suitable to be leverage for bothP2P Live Streaming and VoD Service?

From: JeffreyHo <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:44:31 +0800

Subject: RE: [P2PSIP] Is P2PSIP RELOAD not suitable to be leverage for bothP2P Live Streaming and VoD Service?
From: JeffreyHo <[email-masked]>
To: "'David A. Bryan'" <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:44:31 +0800

Actually, there is the same topic posted in the PPSP group. Please see
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ppsp/current/msg00552.html
But there is not any discussion there. I think there is indeed a good bits
of overlay of participants between P2PSIP and PPSP lists.
Thanks.

  _____  

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of
David A. Bryan
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 10:15 AM
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [P2PSIP] Is P2PSIP RELOAD not suitable to be leverage for
bothP2P Live Streaming and VoD Service?

This isn't really the best list for a discussion about these topics, since
the P2PSIP group isn't chartered right now to work on streaming or trackers.
The best place is probably over on the PPSP list, rather than here. That is
the group that is looking building streaming systems and trackers, and can
certainly discuss if RELOAD is a good protocol choice for that application,
while this group is currently only chartered to look at a protocol for DHTs
for use with SIP. You are more likely to get the right folks for this
discussion on that list (and of course there is a good bit of overlap of
participants between the lists).

David (as chair)

2010/3/17 Eric Rescorla <[email-masked]>

Yes, this is also out of scope for the WG. 

-Ekr

2010/3/17 <[email-masked]>

DHT/reload discussed here are used for build trackers of a streaming system,
where the resources are chunk/piece of data other than users. 

Wang Russell

Eric Rescorla <[email-masked]> 

2010-03-17 22:12 

收件人
[email-masked] 

抄送
jc <[email-masked]>, "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>,
[email-masked] 	

主题
Re: [P2PSIP] 答复: Re: Is P2PSIP RELOAD not suitable to be leverage for both
P2P Live Streaming and VoD Service?	

This all seems really off topic for this WG. The charter of P2PSIP
explicitly excludes 
any work on this kind of media sharing: 

1. Issues specific to applications other than locating users and
resources for SIP-based communications and presence. 

-Ekr 

2010/3/17 < <mailto:[email-masked]> [email-masked]> 

       I think whatever the centralized or distributed tracker you chose, if
you must deal with billions of users's access, they're the same. The
centralized tracker must be deployed in distributed or so-called 'cluster'
mode, DHT is just one kind of distributed algorithm, not so special... 
     And futhermore, the DHT algorithm does not always mean 'poor
performance', we have implemented one kind of DHT algorithm suitable for
stable network, its lookup cost is one hop(thousands nodes) or two
hop(millions nodes), and the algorithm released as a plug-in of RELOAD
protocol. 
     The similar algorithm you can found in amazon's dynamo or the memcahce
project, and there's also some other constant complexity DHT algorithm. 

Russell Wang

jc < <mailto:[email-masked]> [email-masked]> 
发件人:   <mailto:[email-masked]> [email-masked] 

2010-03-16 08:58 

收件人
Bruce Lowekamp < <mailto:[email-masked]> [email-masked]> 	

抄送
" <mailto:[email-masked]> [email-masked]" < <mailto:[email-masked]>
[email-masked]> 	

主题
Re: [P2PSIP] Is P2PSIP RELOAD not suitable to be leverage for both
P2P Live Streaming and VoD Service?	

The largest overlay i've seen where every node participated in storage and
routing was ~1.6M. They operate best under ~650K. At about 1M the routing
times get into the minutes. You would need to create and ad-hoc overlay for
every stream. I've implemented a multicast layer that does this over a DHT.
The DHT is the signaling layer used to setup these ad-hoc overlays(groups).
RELOAD could perform the signaling, rendezvous setup, multicast grouping
storage but not too much more. 

On Mar 15, 2010, at 8:10 PM, Bruce Lowekamp wrote: 

So substituting the terms used in RELOAD, this is exactly my point.
draft-hu-ppsp-tracker-dht-performance-comparison assumes 20M peers, i.e.
nodes used in routing, and bases latency calculations on that number.  Not
57K.  The draft further works out that with 20M peers storing data, each
needs to store 0.01 of a resource. 

Even if you do the calculations with a reasonable number of peers (routing
nodes), the dht overlay will still obviously have higher latency than a
single-server based solution.  You select a dht overlay for different
reasons than you would select a central server-based solution. 

Bruce 

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 3:27 PM, jc < <mailto:[email-masked]>
[email-masked]> wrote: 
You need 57,142.857 nodes to route 20M of peer traffic. This is the
algorithm we used in fasttrack and is the same as in skype. This is a
maximum capacity scenario.

Sent from my iPhone 

On Mar 15, 2010, at 6:32 PM, Bruce Lowekamp < <mailto:[email-masked]>
[email-masked]> wrote:

They scale fine, but there is a point beyond which adding additional peers
to the overlay routing merely adds latency.  Don't have time to look up the
references now, but there are a number of papers discussing the advantages
of different numbers of peers (superpeers in a lot of systems) needed for
overlay routing.  You don't need 10M. 

Bruce 

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:55 AM, jc < <mailto:[email-masked]>
<mailto:[email-masked]> [email-masked]> wrote: 

On Mar 15, 2010, at 3:32 PM, Bruce Lowekamp wrote: 

The performance comparison draft compares the performance of a centralized
lookup server with a P2P DHT system with 10M peers.  Since those address
entirely different use cases, and no one would ever deploy a 10M peer
distributed tracker, it's not clear what the point of the comparison is.
This has nothing to do with RELOAD. 

There are active distributed trackers w/ > 1M peers. Why would you not
deploy a 10M user distributed tracker? They do inherently scale infinitely
by nature. 

Bruce 

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:55 AM, World < <mailto:[email-masked]>
<mailto:[email-masked]> [email-masked]> wrote: 
Dear all, 
 
I am thinking what P2P Live Streaming and VoD Service can leverage P2PSIP
RELOAD. According to some research or proposal report, it seems that P2PSIP
RELOAD can be used in P2P-based Tracker and/or chunk description
distribution (chunk discovery) at the full distributed deployment. Both
P2P-based Tracker and chunk description distribution over P2PSIP overlay
were evaluated in performance referred to
draft-chen-ppsp-dht-chunk-discovery-evaluation-00.txt and
draft-hu-ppsp-tracker-dht-performance-comparison-01.txt. The result showed
the performance of DHT-based Tracker and chunk description distribution is
worse, even not acceptable for P2P Live Streaming and VoD Service. 

So can we make such conclusion that P2PSIP RELOAD is not suitable to be
leverage for both P2P Live Streaming and VoD Service in case a full
distributed deployment is not mandatory? What do you think? 
 
Any comments are welcome. Thanks. 
 
BR,
Jeffrey	

_______________________________________________
P2PSIP mailing list
 <mailto:[email-masked]>  <mailto:[email-masked]> [email-masked]
 <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip>
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip

_______________________________________________
P2PSIP mailing list
 <mailto:[email-masked]>  <mailto:[email-masked]> [email-masked]
 <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip>
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip 

_______________________________________________
P2PSIP mailing list
 <mailto:[email-masked]> [email-masked]
 <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip

--------------------------------------------------------
ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail is
solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication is
confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain secrecy and
are not permitted to disclose the contents of this communication to others.
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
If you have received this email in error please notify the originator of the
message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual
sender.
This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam system.

_______________________________________________
P2PSIP mailing list
 <mailto:[email-masked]> [email-masked]
 <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip

--------------------------------------------------------

ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail is
solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication is
confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain secrecy and
are not permitted to disclose the contents of this communication to others.

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
If you have received this email in error please notify the originator of the
message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual
sender.

This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam system.

_______________________________________________
P2PSIP mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip

本信件可能包含工研院機密資訊，非指定之收件者，請勿使用或揭露本信件內容，並請銷毀此信件。
This email may contain confidential information. Please do not use or disclose it in any way and delete it if you are not the intended recipient.

---

From: "zhangyunfei" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 14:03:50 +0800

Besides the paper mentioned in the discussion list, some reference for comparision of tracker and DHT performance can be found in the following paper.Some comparative results in this paper showed that a
single tracker/multiple tracker system provides better performance than DHT methods. But this is based on Bittorrent system, some difference from live streaming or VoD. So just for your information.
One point I would like to stress is that PPSP and RELAOD cover different tasks:
In PPSP, we are not aiming at designing a P2P streaming *system*, rather we want to design the protocols and syntax in a tracker-based p2p streaming system,how the tracker and peer talks,how the peer talks with each other...
The problem of how to realize distributed trackers, e.g., how the trackers organize in a DHT way like RELAOD,can be discussed *after*we finish the basic tracker protocol and peer protocol. 
In a word,PPSP and RELAOD targets different tasks and can be used together for a whole system.
Just two cents.
The following is the reference paper:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
G. Neglia, G. Reina, H. Zhang, D. Towsley, A.Venkataramani and J. Danaher, “Availability in
BitTorrent Systems,” in Proceedings of the 26th IEEE International Conference on Computer
Communications(INFOCOM 2007), 2007.

BR
Yunfei

zhangyunfei
2010-03-19

发件人： JeffreyHo
发送时间： 2010-03-18 12:01:54
收件人： 'David A. Bryan'
抄送： [email-masked]; [email-masked]
主题： Re: [ppsp] [P2PSIP] Is P2PSIP RELOAD not suitable to be leverageforbothP2P Live Streaming and VoD Service?

------------------------------------------------------------
From:    JeffreyHo   <[email-masked] >
To:    "'David  A.  Bryan'"   <[email-masked] >
Subject:    RE:  [P2PSIP]  Is  P2PSIP  RELOAD  not  suitable  to  be  leverage  for  bothP2P  Live  Streaming  and  VoD  Service?
Date:    Thu18  Mar  2010  11:44:31  +0800

   _____    

David  (as  chair)

2010/3/17  Eric  Rescorla   <[email-masked] >

-Ekr

2010/3/17   <[email-masked] >

Wang  Russell

Eric  Rescorla   <[email-masked] >  

2010-03-17  22:12  

收件人
[email-masked]  

抄送
jc   <[email-masked] >,  "[email-masked]"   <[email-masked] >,
[email-masked]   

主题

-Ekr  

2010/3/17   <   <mailto:[email-masked] >  [email-masked] >  

Russell  Wang

jc   <   <mailto:[email-masked] >  [email-masked] >  
发件人:       <mailto:[email-masked] >  [email-masked]  

2010-03-16  08:58  

收件人
Bruce  Lowekamp   <   <mailto:[email-masked] >  [email-masked] >   

抄送
"   <mailto:[email-masked] >  [email-masked]"   <   <mailto:[email-masked] >
[email-masked] >   

主题

Bruce  

On  Mon,  Mar  15,  2010  at  3:27  PM,  jc   <   <mailto:[email-masked] >
[email-masked] >  wrote:  
You  need  57,142.857  nodes  to  route  20M  of  peer  traffic.  This  is  the
algorithm  we  used  in  fasttrack  and  is  the  same  as  in  skype.  This  is  a
maximum  capacity  scenario.

Sent  from  my  iPhone  

On  Mar  15,  2010,  at  6:32  PM,  Bruce  Lowekamp   <   <mailto:[email-masked] >
[email-masked] >  wrote:

Bruce  

On  Mon,  Mar  15,  2010  at  11:55  AM,  jc   <   <mailto:[email-masked] >
<mailto:[email-masked] >  [email-masked] >  wrote:  

Bruce  

On  Mon,  Mar  15,  2010  at  12:55  AM,  World   <   <mailto:[email-masked] >
<mailto:[email-masked] >  [email-masked] >  wrote:  
Dear  all,  

BR,
Jeffrey 

_______________________________________________
P2PSIP  mailing  list
  <mailto:[email-masked] >     <mailto:[email-masked] >  [email-masked]
  <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip >
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip >
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip

_______________________________________________
P2PSIP  mailing  list
  <mailto:[email-masked] >     <mailto:[email-masked] >  [email-masked]
  <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip >
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip >
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip  

_______________________________________________
P2PSIP  mailing  list
  <mailto:[email-masked] >  [email-masked]
  <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip >
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip

_______________________________________________
P2PSIP  mailing  list
  <mailto:[email-masked] >  [email-masked]
  <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip >
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip

_______________________________________________
P2PSIP  mailing  list
[email-masked]
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip
------------------------------------------------------------
本信件可能包含工研院機密資訊，非指定之收件者，請勿使用或揭露本信件內容，並請銷毀此信件。
This  email  may  contain  confidential  information.  Please  do  not  use  or  disclose  it  in  any  way  and  delete  it  if  you  are  not  the  intended  recipient.
_______________________________________________
ppsp  mailing  list
[email-masked]
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp