Subject: [rfc-i] SVG elements not removed

From: Jim Schaad <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 12:03:57 -0800

I am taking a closer look at all of the SVG elements that are labeled as out
of bounds for RFCs.  In looking through things I came across linearGradient
and radialGradient.  I am wondering why these elements are not also ruled as
being out of bounds.  

The rule that was applied was that the only colors that are to be used are
black and white with no gray scaling.  Both of these elements would
introduce grays into the system as they provide for an object to be painted
with a gradient of color from black to white across the object.  This means
that the middle would be gray.

Was not ruling these elements out an oversight or was it intentional?

Jim

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From: Nevil Brownlee <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 11:03:01 +1300

Hi Jim:

Hmm, looking back through my svg-check.py code, I see that I left the
colour grey (an all the various html ways of specifying it) in for
SVG-RFC, along with linearGradient and radialGradient.

My recollection is that not allowing colour was an access consideration,
but - to me at least - allowing shades of grey would be OK.
If we agree that they shouldn't be there, I can certainly take them out
of a new draft, and out of the rnc syntax.

Heather, what's your opinion on this?

Cheers, Nevil

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From: "HANSEN, TONY L" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 23:56:27 +0000

I personally think shades of gray should be okay.

	Tony

On 12/11/17, 5:03 PM, "rfc-interest on behalf of Nevil Brownlee" <[email-masked] on behalf of [email-masked]> wrote:

    Hi Jim:

    
    
    Cheers, Nevil

    On 8/12/17 9:03 am, Jim Schaad wrote:
    > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.rfc-2Deditor.org_mailman_listinfo_rfc-2Dinterest&d=DwICAg&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=Kz8VdgPVctDNSNPJ6PsBaw&m=6VvRH-2JKXDiXhR8Gt4p8xoI03QVw5j4VjE-xDJCtY0&s=kH60iObpZ6FW--_ftatXJRi4qdzsH1mH-Us2sF6II5o&e= 
    > 

    https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.rfc-2Deditor.org_mailman_listinfo_rfc-2Dinterest&d=DwICAg&c=LFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=Kz8VdgPVctDNSNPJ6PsBaw&m=6VvRH-2JKXDiXhR8Gt4p8xoI03QVw5j4VjE-xDJCtY0&s=kH60iObpZ6FW--_ftatXJRi4qdzsH1mH-Us2sF6II5o&e=

---

From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 20:00:51 -0500

> I personally think shades of gray should be okay.

​Perhaps limit them to a set number of discrete values? Fifty or so?​

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From: Jim Schaad <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 17:51:47 -0800

For me the question would be how many different grays will I be able to distinguish when reading on my kindle.  My printer would do a better job of distinguishing different grays.

Jim

From: rfc-interest [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Phillip Hallam-Baker
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 5:01 PM
To: HANSEN, TONY L <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [rfc-i] SVG elements not removed

On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 6:56 PM, HANSEN, TONY L <[email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]> > wrote:

        Tony

---

From: Matthew Kerwin <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 12:12:49 +1000

On 12 December 2017 at 11:51, Jim Schaad <[email-masked]> wrote:
> For me the question would be how many different grays will I be able to
> distinguish when reading on my kindle.  My printer would do a better job of
> distinguishing different grays.
>

Arbitrary straw man:

* use the old "web safe" greys: #333333, #666666, #999999, #CCCCCC
* allow greyscale gradients from any allowed shade to any other

Is anybody concerned about halftoning or stippling or any of that?

Cheers
-- 
  Matthew Kerwin
  http://matthew.kerwin.net.au/

---

From: "Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 08:37:21 -0800

> Heather, what's your opinion on this?

Color and greyscale are a step too far for us at this time, and for the
foreseeable future.

RFC 6949, Section 3.2:

      8.  Graphics may include ASCII art and a more complex form to be
          defined, such as SVG line art [SVG].  Color and grayscale will
          not be accepted.  RFCs must correctly display in monochromatic
          black-and-white to allow for monochrome displays, black-and-
          white printing, and support for visual disabilities.

-Heather

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From: Nevil Brownlee <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 09:35:06 +1300

Hi Heather:

OK, I'll post a new version of RFC 7996, with gr*y and gradients
removed, and with the rnc syntax updated with that change.

Cheers, Nevil

---

From: Nevil Brownlee <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 14:26:42 +1300

Hi all:

I've posted a new draft, draft-7996-bis-00.txt, that
  - limits colours to black, white and their hex equivalents
  - removes linearGradient and radialGradient elemnts

These changes appear in SVG-1.2-RFC's rnc schema, that's
Appendix A in the draft.
I've put a copy of the rnc schema online in my home page, at
https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~nevil/SVG_RFC_1.2/SVG-1.2-RFC.rnc

Also, I've updated my svg-check.py program - that will check an
SVG file for compliance with SVG-1.2-RFC.  It will also strip
out any non-compliant elements in the XML to produce a compliant
copy.  If you'd like to try svg-check.py, you can get it from
https://github.com/nevil-brownlee/check_svg

For example, python3 check-svg.py -w 200 -n rpc-procedure-inkscape.svg
flags 128 warnings in the image  rpc-procedure-inkscape.svg
It also writes pc-procedure-inkscape.new.svg, which has no errors
and looks the same as the original when displayed.

Cheers, Nevil

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From: Julian Reschke <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 06:42:37 +0100

> and looks the same as the original when displayed.

Hi,

are you going to track this over here:

https://github.com/rfc-format/draft-iab-svg-rfc-bis

?

Best regards, Julian

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From: Nevil Brownlee <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 09:47:43 +1300

Hi Julian:

Oops, yes - I'll do that early next week.

Cheers, Nevil

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  Nevil Brownlee                    Computer Science Department | ITS
  Phone: +64 9 373 7599 x88941             The University of Auckland
  FAX: +64 9 373 7453   Private Bag 92019, Auckland 1142, New Zealand