Subject: The (First) Last Call for Comments

From: "Gavin, Ted (COR-EX)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 14:26:24 -0400

RUNners;

With the IETF meeting approaching, I would like to start to wrap up our work
on the Draft, and once we have consensus, prepare it for submission.

To that end, I would like to start some pointed discussion on the Draft as
it now stands. Comments have come in from many sources, and in all cases I
have made the requested changes (most suggestions were relevant to form)
(April, I will post my responses to your suggestions in the other thread).

When updating the draft, I am immediately posting the changes to the
web-location, posted again here for your reference:

http://home.att.net/~tedgavin/draft-ietf-run-adverts-01.txt

Please post any thoughts you all have regarding the draft or its contents as
soon as possible (anything is valid commentary, since even "Me too" comments
drive consensus!). I would like to see a final, final version accepted by
the entire group no later than September 30, which is two weeks from now
(already???).

So, keep those comments coming (especially you lurkers out there!), and
thanks for your help, everyone!

Ted

---

From: ColorNet Robin <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 21:47:44 +0200

Good Afternoon,

I am totally new to the discussion group but hope to make one or two
remarks over the next 24 hours.

For Information I am meeting one of the Commissaires of the French Data
Protection Agency on Friday, and will be lunching with another on 22nd.
There will be an official CNIL report on spamming before the October 5
Parliamentrary Internet & the Law meeting (1 full day including lunch if
you'd like to RUN over) organised by the joint French Senate and
Parliament with the French Chapter of ISOC.  Your spam comments come in
just at the right moment.

Nevertheless, at a first glance I'm sorry to put a spanner in the works
but there are points which may either delay publication or stimulate in
depth soul searching before we let the cat out of the bag.  One of the
reasons - at least in Europe - is the legal continuity between ONLINE and
OFFLINE.

I'll come back later with a detailed comment based on a synthesis of the
European viewpoints and legal implications - although I am not, myself
anything approaching a lawyer.

Best regards Jonathan Robin
Vice President ISOC France
Vice President French Teleworking Association www.aftt.net
Member Internet Advertising Bureau
Steering Committee ISTF

---

From: ColorNet Robin <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 02:49:46 +0200

ColorNet Robin a écrit:
>(reply sent to TGavin perso in error instead of to list)
>
>Hello again .... with the midnight hour striking I am uncertain of what a
>"leadership" role actually means in your terminology or how many people
>are on the user list and how many of those speak French but there is a
>serious reconsideration of a number of points if we wish to avoid "MAKING
>ENEMIES FAST".

The information below seems to comfort my comments on OPT OUT rather than
opt in
IP/99/652
Brussels, 1st September 1999
Electronic commerce: amended proposal for a coherent legal framework in
the Single Market
An amended proposal for a Directive to establish a coherent legal
framework for electronic commerce within the Single Market has been put
forward by the European Commission. .... A number of clarifications have
been introduced in the amended proposal concerning 'inter alia'
definitions of Information Society services and of consumers, the link
between the electronic commerce proposal and existing consumer protection
and data protection Directives, the treatment of unsolicited commercial
communications via electronic mail and determination of the moment when an
on-line contract is concluded.....information society services benefit
from the Single Market principles of free movement of services and freedom
of establishment. This would allow operators authorised in one Member
State to provide services throughout the European Union (EU). ... the
Directive builds on existing EU instruments which already provide for
harmonisation at Community level or on the mutual recognition of national
laws.

....... The main substantive changes concern:

....the definition of a "consumer" (article 2 (f)) a specific definition
has been introduced in line with that used in a number of existing
Directives
the link between this proposal and existing Directives on consumer
protection and protection of personal data (articles 5, 6, 7 and 22.1)
this has been further clarified.
unsolicited commercial communications by e-mail (article 7) - Member
States would be obliged to ensure that opt-out registers were made
available to consumers and consulted regularly by service providers
undertaking such unsolicited commercial communications. This opens up a
pragmatic and workable solution to the problem of unsolicited commercial
communications without prejudice to existing Directives.
on-line contracts (article 11(1)) - the criteria which would establish the
moment of conclusion of certain on-line contracts have been clarified and
simplified.
....
The full text of the proposal can be downloaded from our Europa web site:
http://europa.eu.int/comm/dg15

That part relating to spam is to be found on page 22 - but I am not
certain that the definition of SPAM here as "commercial unsolicited"
corresponds totally to SPAM as "unsolicited".  In other words do we refuse
widget and co's messages and accept Mrs Widget asking us to convert to
whatever cause she sees fit ?
Page 11

5a)  Whereas in order to ensure legal certainty and consumer confidence,
this Directive must lay down a clear and uniform general framework to
cover certain legal aspects of electronic commerce in the Internal Market

6)  .../..  the Directive must ensure a high level of pretectio of
objectives of general interest, in particular the protection of minors and
human dignity, consumer protection and the protection of public health
../..this Directive does not impact on the legal requirements applicable
to the delivery of goods as such, nor those applicable to services which
are not Information Society services

6a)  Whereas the rules relating to the protection of personal data, in
particular Directive 95/46/EC of the European Parliament and of the
Council of 24 October 1995 on the protection of individuals with regard to
the processing of personal data and the free movement of such data and
Directive 97/66/EC ....concerning processing of personal data and
protection of privacy in the telecommunications sector are fully
applicable to Information Society services.....application of this
Directive should be in full compliance with the principles relating to the
protection of personal data, in particular as regards unsolicited
commercial communication and the liability regime for intermediaries;
whereas this directive cannot prevent the anonymous use of open networks
such as the Internet
7)  Whereas this Directive does not aim to establish specific rules on
private international law relating to conflicts of law or jurisdiction and
is not a substitute for the relevant international conventions .....

Page 22

SECTION 2- COMMERCIAL COMMUNICATIONS

Article 6 information to be provided

Without prejudice to the obligations deriving from Directive 97/7/EC.
Member States shall lay down in their legislation that commercial
communication shall comply with the following conditions :

a) the commercial communication shall be clearly identifiable as such
b) the natural or legal person on whose behalf the commercial
communication is made shall be clearly identifiable
c) promotional offers, such as discounts, premiums, and givts, where
authorised by the Member State in which the service provider is
established, shall be clearly identifiable as such, and the conditions
which are to be met to qualify for them shall be easily accessible and
presented accurately and unequivocally.

d) promotional competitions or games, where authorised by the Member State
in which the service provider is established, shall be clearly
identifiable as such, and the conditons for participation shall be easily
accessible and be presented accurately and unequivocally.

                Article 7 - Unsolicited commercial communication

1)   Member States shall lay down in their legislation that unsolicted
commercial communication by electronic mail must be clearly and
unequivocally identifiable as such as oon as it is received by the
recipient.
2) Without prejudice to Directive 97/7/EC and Directive 96/66/EC Member
States shall take measures to ensure that service providers undertaking
unsolicited commerical communications by e-mail consult regularly and
respect the opt-out registers in which natural persons not wishing to
receive such commercial communications can register themselves.

..... It is now 2.45 Paris time and I'm a little tired in typing all this
out but perhaps the implications of the above are more fully  understood
on this list, and the need to interface with this can be seen with deeper
perspective.

Once again I apologise for the eleventh hour intervention - and await
further comments ?

Best regards Jonathan