Subject: draft meeting minutes

From: Stephen Farrell <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:14:26 +0000

The draft minutes for today's meeting are attached. Thanks 
(again) to Al Arsenault for note-taking.

Comments, if any, within a week, say?

Regards,
Stephen.

-- 
____________________________________________________________
Stephen Farrell         				   
Baltimore Technologies,   tel: (direct line) +353 1 881 6716
39 Parkgate Street,                     fax: +353 1 881 7000
Dublin 8.                mailto:[email-masked]
Ireland                             http://www.baltimore.com

Notes on SACRED meeting 
Salt Lake City, December 12, 2001.
Magnus Nystrom, Stephen Farrell, Co-Chairs.

There were ~80 attendees.

Agenda
	Introduction, agenda bashing
	Working group status
	Protocol I-D discussion
		Protocol I-D Overview
		Protocol I-D Delta
		Transport discussion
	Peer-to-peer discussion
	AOB
	
Magnus reviewed the WG Status:

Since London, the requirements document was published as RFC 3157.

Version -02 of the Framework document was published on mailing list. The decision 
was made in London to develop next revision of the Framework document, and then 
wait until the protocol document is completed, and then publish both documents 
together to ensure consistency.  There has been no work done on the document since 
London. The next version will be put out in January

Version -00 of the PKI Enrollment Information draft was published in June, and 
expires in December. This document will not to be progressed further within this 
working group at this point

Version -00 of the Protocol draft was published in October. (This was still a 
-00 draft because the document name was changed when PDM was dropped in favor 
of SRP)

Stephen described the current Protocol I-D, draft-itef-sacred-protocol-bss-00.txt. 
A reasonable number of people admitted to having read the draft (much more than 
had read the draft in London). This draft is based on the earlier PDM draft; it 
uses BEEP/TCP for transport; SASL-SRP (via BEEP) for authentication; PKCS#15 
credential format; and an XML schema to define payloads

A question was asked about whether  SASL-SRP is encumbered? The answer given is 
that we’re not sure at this time.  There is an IPR declaration by Stanford covering 
SRP on the ietf site.

This draft is compatible with XKMS

There are four open issues with this draft:
- should the protocol support administrative operations? 
- Should we tie account-password changes with credential changes somehow? Mike Just 
  responded "no". Stephen Farrell said that he tends to agree; the client can always 
  force them together.
- Mapping from SASL-SRP id to cTLS certificate. A comment was made that we would 
  love to be able to solve this problem, but lots of other efforts have this same 
  problem, and they always leave it to the implementation to define. Anybody who 
  has "start TLS" followed by SASL-external has this problem, but don’t address it 
  because they don’t know how.  Stephen asked the commenter to please post pointers 
  to other experiences addressing this issue on the list.
- Reasonable check on Upload:LastModified

Magnus then initiated the "Transport discussion". The ID tied SACRED to BEEP, and 
used the SASL services provided by BEEP for security. Magnus & Gareth Richards posted 
another approach, integrating SASL support into SACRED itself, rather than relying 
on the transport (BEEP) to provide it. The primary reason for this is that clients 
might not always support BEEP.(The SACRED protocol is expected to be implemented on 
a wide variety of clients; some very limited in nature; mandating/relying on BEEP 
could harm adoption of the overall SACRED protocol)

This proposal is a delta to the current transport I-D, with some exceptions:
- allows for easier mapping to http, SOAP, etc.
- allows for other security context establishment mechanisms than SASL

There are other changes aimed at constrained clients. This approach is still XKMS 
compatible, using SASL.

Dave Crocker responded with a counter-proposal, which he called "The Zen of SACRED/BEEP". 
(http://www.brandenburg.com/presentations/SacredBeep[.htm|.ppt]).

It follows a number of precepts which include: 
- invent as little as possible; 
- complexity and effort are not reduced by being moved to different layer, so put 
functions where they belong; 
- it is good to reuse; 
- use the simplest solution; 
- avoid using a hammer to drive a screw.

He then described what BEEP is and what it isn’t. BEEP is merely: protocol basics 
mantra (framing, syntax, exchange rules, response code); Session options, if you 
want; multiplexing (asynchrony/push) if you want; a standard point of departure 
above TCP. Using Beep means: using common standards (XML, MIME, SASL); the application 
is freed from network basics.

There are traditionally a number of arguments made against BEEP, none of which are 
true according to Dave:  Adds size, adds delay, adds coding effort, it is new; it is 
easier faster to grow your own.

Jeff Schiller noted that one of the features of "roll your own" is you write code 
that does what you want. If you follow Dave’s approach, it can be painful from an 
implementation standpoint (you have to get an XML parser, and a BEEP toolkit, 
and...) Dave agreed that that’s a good and valid issue, but the features in BEEP 
generally need to be provided somewhere. It gets back to "should you use a 
subroutine library you didn’t write?" Using BEEP versus rolling your own is the 
same logic.

Eric Rescorla asked whether Dave’s argument is an argument that BEEP is an 
acceptable binding for SACRED, or an argument that we don’t need any other bindings 
because BEEP’s all we need?  Dave said that BEEP presents a necessary and sufficient 
interface to the underlying parts of services.  Rolling your own is only a good approach 
if it gives you want you want with acceptable risk, performance, effort...

Keith Moore questioned the merits of using HTTP under SACRED.  The question is not 
one of footprint, it’s one of mindshare.  People believe that HTTP is already there, 
even in challenged environments, and they know how to work with it.  That’s a dubious 
assumption, because HTTP is almost certainly wrong for this type of application.  There 
are so many assumptions built into the HTTP infrastructure that you’ll run afoul of one 
or more of them if you try to reuse it. Bottom line is that HTTP is a tar baby you 
don’t want to stick your fist in. Also, having more bearers/transports actually harms 
interoperability in this case.

Magnus reiterated that one has to be practical; we want to support a wide variety of 
clients/platforms with SACRED.  If these platforms wind up having to support another 
protocol in order to support SACRED, they may just wind up abandoning SACRED altogether.

Keith Moore strongly urged the group to pick ONE transport, because when you implement 
things over multiple transports/bearers, you run into subtle quirks that caused 
massive interoperability problems. OSI showed that you CAN’T mix & match different 
layers; you have to pick them all the way down. 

Magnus agreed that certainly you have to support one transport - that doesn’t mean 
that you can’t support other transports. He wants a cleaner separation of things 
so that SACRED payloads can be moved to other transports.

Phill Hallam-Baker noted the users will wind up dictating what the transport must 
be.

Jeff Schiller asked, what is SACRED trying to do?  It’s something simple, and it 
seems to be getting really complicated. So it seems like we ought to just come up 
with one way to do it, and do it that way. Otherwise we’re going to have the 
mandatory-to-implement battles again, and then there will be interoperability problems 
and maybe security problems.

Stephen took a straw poll of who is likely to implement SACRED.  A number of hands 
were raised; about 15. Of those, all but one would prefer to separate the authentication 
from the transport and be able to put it into the payload. When Stephen took a similar 
poll of meeting attendees in general, there was a more even split.

Limor Elbaz, Discretix, then started a discussion on the peer-to-peer SACRED 
solution. She covered the concept & importance of peer-to-peer secure credentials 
transport; some use cases (e.g., when you don’t want to go through a server because of 
risks of storing credentials on the server, or of potential active attacks exploiting 
the server enrollment process). She explained that, in some cases, direct transfer 
has a psychological sense of security, and there may be a requirement in some cases 
to limit the scenarios in which the user will be able to do credential transfer.  

Direct transfer of credentials differs from the server-based solution in a number of 
ways.  Direct connection will not necessarily be able to adopt the server-based 
mechanisms (e.g. TLS); direct transfer requires no management (server, database, 
enrollment, etc.); some of the security attascks are not relevant in direct connection; 
in direct transfer there is no need to refer to (or set requirements for) transport 
layer; no changes in credential formats would be needed.

Limor proposed the following roadmap for Direct transfer progress: SACRED should 
start working on a new specification, which will deal with direct transfer.  The 
effort would start by collecting requirements; any input from the working group will 
help.  Ultimately, it would be good to coordinate the direct transfer solution with 
some of the WAP WIM-related work. 

Stephen closed the meeting by reviewing the status of the working group "at large".  
For a long time there was almost no work or input in this group.  Magnus encouraged 
on the mailing list those interested in publishing the protocol document as 
"standards-track" to step forward, or the document would probably be published 
as "experimental".  There was limited but positive feedback on the list on this 
issue; several people emphasized the need for standards-track progress. We still 
need more review of the documents, in general, but we will continue development of 
a standards-track protocol at this time.  The chairs will bring this issue 
(experimental vs. standards-track) up again when reaching WG last-call for the 
protocol document.

---

From: "Marshall T. Rose" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 23:39:49 -0800

> that we're not sure at this time.  There is an IPR declaration by Stanford
covering
> SRP on the ietf site.

cf., http://www.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/WU-SRP

/mtr