Subject: Re: draft-ietf-drums-msg-fmt-02.txt

From: Steve Hole <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:32:50 -0600

I took this response off of the DRUMS list because it is along the lines 
of a "me too" response, with a suggestion for SIEVE.

On Sun, 29 Jun 1997 21:42:42 -0400 Pete Resnick <[email-masked]> 
wrote:

> What DRUMS is referring to as "resending" and using "Resent-*" headers 
> for
> I've heard called "resending", "redirecting", and "bouncing". All mail
> packages I've ever heard of use "forward" in the same way that DRUMS does.
> The only place that the word "forwarding" is used to indicate what DRUMS is
> calling "resending" is, unfortunately, in RFC 822. But 822 does not make
> the distinction and does not recognize the act of sending a message as the
> contents of another message. 822's use is simply confusing the issue, as it
> clearly did in the sieve draft.

Making sure that this is consistent between the DRUMS (correct!) 
definition and SIEVE is very important.   User's will regularly use the 
definition that best fits their need of the moment and try to argue the 
point of what a forward truly is.   SIEVE must define it's operation as 
a "resend" operation, not a DRUMS "forward" operation.   The name of the 
operation should reflect exactly what it does.

It seems to me that there could be two operations:

"Resend" - redirect a mail message intact to a new recipient(s) with 
           "Resent-" headers.   This operation is used to automatically 
           redirect a mail message to another recipient without comment.

"Forward" - forward a mail message to a new recipient with (possible) 
           anotation text.

For the forward operation, I think that we should say it must be forwarded 
as MIME Message/RFC822 attachment.   I would actually use "MUST" but would 
accept "SHOULD" if people feel strongly about it.   I really don't care to 
coddle users who don't have a decent MIME mailer these days.   Get with 
the program :-)!

Cheers.
---  
Steve Hole			VP,  Research and Development  
The Esys Corporation		EMail: [email-masked]
900 10040 - 104 St.		Phone: 403-424-4922  
Edmonton, AB, Canada		Fax:   403-424-4925  
T5J 0Z6

---

From: Chris Newman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:15:08 -0700 (PDT)

> operation should reflect exactly what it does.

The real problem here is that there are two operations called "forward"
which are distinct from the "resend" operation.

There is an "MTA forward" -- which simply alters the envelope recipients
with no changes to the message.  This is what the Sieve draft is referring
to and this is what a ~/.forward file does on Unix.  Think of this as what
happens when you tell the post office to "forward" your snail mail.

There is an "MUA forward" -- which is the forward operation provided by
MUAs.  This is the one where new recipients are entered, new text is
added, and the old message is enclosed (as message/rfc822).  Think of this
as what happens when you take a message out of the envelope, add a cover
letter and drop it in a new envelope.

Then there is "Resend" -- an MUA action which doesn't alter the message
body, but adds new Resent-* headers and creates a new envelope.

The key point, IMHO, is that MTAs don't add Resent-* headers, and Sieve
is run by an MTA.

		- Chris

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:15:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Newman <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: draft-ietf-drums-msg-fmt-02.txt
To: Steve Hole <[email-masked]>
Cc: Pete Resnick <[email-masked]>, MTA Filters <[email-masked]>
Originator-Info: login-id=chris; server=thor.innosoft.com
Sender: [email-masked]

> operation should reflect exactly what it does.

The real problem here is that there are two operations called "forward"
which are distinct from the "resend" operation.

There is an "MTA forward" -- which simply alters the envelope recipients
with no changes to the message.  This is what the Sieve draft is referring
to and this is what a ~/.forward file does on Unix.  Think of this as what
happens when you tell the post office to "forward" your snail mail.

There is an "MUA forward" -- which is the forward operation provided by
MUAs.  This is the one where new recipients are entered, new text is
added, and the old message is enclosed (as message/rfc822).  Think of this
as what happens when you take a message out of the envelope, add a cover
letter and drop it in a new envelope.

Then there is "Resend" -- an MUA action which doesn't alter the message
body, but adds new Resent-* headers and creates a new envelope.

The key point, IMHO, is that MTAs don't add Resent-* headers, and Sieve
is run by an MTA.

		- Chris

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:57:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tim Showalter <[email-masked]>
To: MTA Filters <[email-masked]>
Subject: toss action
Sender: [email-masked]

I'm probably going to change toss to trash in the next revision of the
draft in order to ease some international tensions.  Those wondering why can
contact me.

If you have a better word than trash, please let me know.

-- 
                                           Tim Showalter [email-masked]

From: Steve Hole <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:32:50 -0600
To: Pete Resnick <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: draft-ietf-drums-msg-fmt-02.txt
Cc: [email-masked]
Sender: [email-masked]

Cheers.
---