Subject: [SIP] [Sipping] RE: PROPOSED JOINT ACTIVITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL MECHANISM FOR E ND-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL

From: "Roy, Radhika R, ALCTA" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 09:08:45 -0400

Hi, Bob:

All applications (e.g., H.323, SIP) uses signaling messages among its
functional entities (e.g., terminal, agents, gatekeepers, proxies, gateways)
for communications.

The signaling messages that carry QOS parameters are treated as QOS
signaling messages. The applications like SIP and H.323 send signaling
messages end-to-end. H.323 uses H.225.0 RAS, Q.931, Annex G, and H.245
signaling protocols.  SIP also uses SDP as a part of the signaling messages.

The signaling messages that carry QOS related information can be treated as
"End-to-End QOS signaling" messages.

Kindly see the ongoing works of Q.F/16 of SG16. This will provide more
information related to your questions.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,
Radhika R. Roy

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Braden [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 7:39 PM
To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]; Roy, Radhika R,
ALCTA
Cc: [email-masked]; [email-masked];
[email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked];
[email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked];
[email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked];
[email-masked]
Subject: RE: PROPOSED JOINT ACTIVITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL MECHANISM FOR
E ND-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL

  *> From [email-masked]  Wed May 30 14:59:58 2001
  *> From: "Roy, Radhika R, ALCTA" <[email-masked]>
  *> To: [email-masked], [email-masked], [email-masked]
  *> Cc: [email-masked], [email-masked],
[email-masked],
  *>    [email-masked], [email-masked], [email-masked],
[email-masked],
  *>    Yukio Hiramatsu
  *> 	 <[email-masked]>, [email-masked],
  *>    [email-masked], [email-masked],
[email-masked]
  *> Subject: RE: PROPOSED JOINT ACTIVITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL MECHANISM
FOR E
  *> 	ND-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL
  *> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 17:21:14 -0400
  *> MIME-Version: 1.0
  *> 
  *> Hi, Everyone:
  *>  
  *> Question Q.F/16 of ITU-T SG16 is fully dedicated for developing
standards
  *> for "End-to-End QOS for Multimedia Applications". Contributions are
also
  *> being under discussion in the ITU-T SG16 Brazil May 28 - June 8, 2001
  *> meeting.

This is very confusing.   "End-to-End QOS for Multimedia Applications"
is an really important topic, but this topic must be a superset of
"End-to-End QOS signaling".  There are much harder problems than
signaling in providing E2E QoS.  Can you explain how signaling relates
to the title of this working party?

Thanks,

Bob Braden

  *>  
  *> Applications like H.323, SIP, H.324, H.310, and others will also be
able to
  *> use this Q.F/16's QOS signaling protocol. MEGACO/H.248 and BICC will
also be
  *> able to use this when specs are fully developed and, TIPHON's QOS
mechanisms
  *> can also be used as one of the mechanisms for implementations.

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---

From: "Roy, Radhika R, ALCTA" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 09:08:45 -0400

Hi, Bob:

Hope this helps.

Best regards,
Radhika R. Roy

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Braden [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 7:39 PM
To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]; Roy, Radhika R,
ALCTA

Thanks,

Bob Braden

  *>  

_______________________________________________
IPTEL mailing list
[email-masked]
http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/iptel

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 10:09:10 -0700

At 06:08 AM 5/31/2001, Roy, Radhika R, ALCTA wrote:
 >All applications (e.g., H.323, SIP) uses signaling messages
 >among its functional entities (e.g., terminal, agents,
 >gatekeepers, proxies, gateways) for communications.

I'm not sure we're on the same planet. Please help me out here.

I can think of a few applications that have agents, gatekeepers, proxies, 
and gateways, mostly resulting from the imposition of firewalls or 
authentication systems, or from legacy applications like imitating the 
telephone system in a data network. The only one that *requires* any kind 
of gateway, to my knowledge, is H.323 teleconferencing, which represents a 
paltry fraction of traffic according to most current measurements. Anything 
else (75% of Internet traffic is http or FTP, most of the rest is mail, on 
private LANs applications like NFS are pretty common, and even SIP can be 
done without a gateway between consenting systems) could be hooked up in 
separate systems on a LAN and made to work without any such signalling at all.

Could you be more specific on what QoS signalling is required by the world 
wide web, mail, FTP, common ERP applications like ERP and PeopleSoft, 
calendaring, and so on? If not, could you be more specific about what "all" 
applications you have in mind?

And could you be more specific about what issues this proposal is 
addressing that have not already been addressed in de facto standards and 
deployed in operational systems? It would be very nice to understand what 
you are preparing to ask vendors to do, and whether operators are 
interested in deploying them.

---

From: Bob Braden <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 23:39:17 GMT

*> From [email-masked]  Wed May 30 14:59:58 2001
  *> From: "Roy, Radhika R, ALCTA" <[email-masked]>
  *> To: [email-masked], [email-masked], [email-masked]
  *> Cc: [email-masked], [email-masked], [email-masked],
  *>    [email-masked], [email-masked], [email-masked], [email-masked],
  *>    Yukio Hiramatsu
  *> 	 <[email-masked]>, [email-masked],
  *>    [email-masked], [email-masked], [email-masked]
  *> Subject: RE: PROPOSED JOINT ACTIVITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL MECHANISM FOR E
  *> 	ND-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL
  *> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 17:21:14 -0400
  *> MIME-Version: 1.0
  *> 
  *> Hi, Everyone:
  *>  
  *> Question Q.F/16 of ITU-T SG16 is fully dedicated for developing standards
  *> for "End-to-End QOS for Multimedia Applications". Contributions are also
  *> being under discussion in the ITU-T SG16 Brazil May 28 - June 8, 2001
  *> meeting.

Thanks,

Bob Braden

  *>  
  *> Applications like H.323, SIP, H.324, H.310, and others will also be able to
  *> use this Q.F/16's QOS signaling protocol. MEGACO/H.248 and BICC will also be
  *> able to use this when specs are fully developed and, TIPHON's QOS mechanisms
  *> can also be used as one of the mechanisms for implementations.

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 10:09:10 -0700

---

From: "Roy, Radhika R, ALCTA" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 13:51:09 -0400

Hi, Baker:

It appears that a good amount discussion can be started to answer your
questions (what has being discussed for the last couple of years in the
ITU-T and TIPHON in particular). I am not trying to do so. Let me answer
your questions summarizing the key points as follows:

1. Broadly, all applications can be considered in two categories: a.
Real-time (e.g., audio, video [of H.323/SIP]) and b. Non-Real-time (e.g.,
data applications like file transfer, WWW, Mail, etc. - can a part of
H.323/SIP). 

The performance parameters of both real-time (audio, video) and
non-real-time (data) traffic can be abstracted in an universal way that can
be used by all applications (e.g., H.323, SIP, WWW, mail, etc). 

However, the signaling messages used by each application are
application-specific although the QOS parameters used by all of them still
remain same (e.g., H.323 might use RAS/Q.931/Annex-G/H.245 signaling
messages, SIP might use SDP). 

The QOS signaling messages that use QOS parameters can be termed as the
application layer QOS signaling messages and are sent on end-to-end basis
and the values of those QOS parameters do not change no matter what may be
the underlying transport networks (e.g., IP, ATM).

2. The network layer QOS signaling messages carried over the network may not
be end-to-end significance. For example, an end-to-end path of an IP network
may consist of RSVP, DiffServ, MPLS, and RSVP. So, the network layer QOS
parameters may get translated between the source-destination path and may
not remain the same what has been negotiated on end-to-end basis in the
application layer (item 1).

The problems that are being addressed are as follows:

A. How to develop the end-to-end QOS signaling mechanisms in the application
layer

B. How to relate the application layer QOS signaling to the network layer
QOS signaling (e.g., RSVP, DifServ, MPLS, etc.) so that one-to-one
consistency remain between the application and network layer QOS parameters.

Hope this may clarify some of your questions.

Best regards,
Radhika R. Roy
AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Baker [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 1:09 PM
To: Roy, Radhika R, ALCTA
Cc: Bob Braden; [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked];
[email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked];
[email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked];
[email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked];
[email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: RE: PROPOSED JOINT ACTIVITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL MECHANISM FOR
E ND-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL

separate systems on a LAN and made to work without any such signalling at
all.

---

From: "Roy, Radhika R, ALCTA" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 13:51:09 -0400

Hi, Baker:

Best regards,
Radhika R. Roy
AT&T