Subject: RE: [Sipping] I-D ACTION:draft-sharath-sipb-requirements-00.txt

From: Henry Sinnreich <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 15:18:28 -0500

Specific requirements for SIP business phones may be a good idea, if
properly written, so as not to inhibit innovation. Also, since the
SIPPING chair has explained why this may not be a SIPPING WG item, it
would be very welcome in industry organizations, such as the SIP Forum
http://www.sipforum.org/ Please contact us off-line on this - the people
CC:'d here.

Mike Chack debates the notion that

> business phone profile for SIP is not a "cool" use of the sip
> protocol.

Sharath Rajasekar also writes:

>We understand your concern about varying requirements for differing 
>businesses. However, we believe that the minimal requirements for what 
>a business phone's feature set must be, is not only independent of the 
>environment of its use but also does not preclude a vendor from 
>implementing additional features to address/fulfill the context of 
>its use. Thus this draft, in no way limits or curtails innovation.

1. One can argue that PCs can act as the highest quality and most
versatile business phones for certain types of business users. Besides
support also for video, apps, etc. Special applications, such as the
agent workstation are cearly better suited for a PC.

2. The combination of PC and desktop SIP phones, where call selection
and managemnt is done in a user friendly and powerful fashion from the
PC is also a powerful business application.

3. PDA's can have powerful SIP phones - I happen to test two of them
right now.

4. Combination of PDA and SIP phone as shown at tradeshows - another
poweful application.

Given all this variety of what a "SIP business phone" is, do you intend
to include all such cases, or just restrict to PBX-like phones? (I hope
not)

Just legitimizing PSTN-like desktop phones in the IETF at the expense of
all the above does not seem to be fair, I believe, nor does it make
sense for users.

If however a more general meaning of "business phone" can be defined,
that would be of interest IMHO, inluding for those vendors that make PC,
laptop and PDA based phones or PC assisted phones.

Thanks, Henry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
> On Behalf Of Mike Chack
> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 7:40 AM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: RE: [Sipping] I-D 
> ACTION:draft-sharath-sipb-requirements-00.txt
> 
> 
> Henry,
> 
> It is obivous that there are many innovative products in the
> marketplace. That is not the point.  No one is trying to make 
> the point that the business phone is the end-all-be-all 
> communication platform.  But business phones have a set of 
> features and usability which are prevalent in the marketplace 
> today and probably will not disappear overnight.  Business 
> phones are not obsolete and neither is the pstn.  There is a 
> market opportunity here that will drive revenue.  As far as I 
> know most of the individuals contributing to this forum work 
> for companies whose main goals is to make money.  Let's not 
> discourage dialogue and discourse because you feel that a 
> business phone profile for SIP is not a "cool" use of the sip 
> protocol.  The US Postal service isn't cool either but 
> NetFlix has succeeded in using it as an alternative broadband 
> (high latency !) delivery mechanism for residential video on demand.
> 
> Mike Chack
> Sylantro Systems
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henry Sinnreich [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 8:59 AM
> To: SIP Mailing List
> Subject: RE: [Sipping] I-D
> ACTION:draft-sharath-sipb-requirements-00.txt
> 
> 
> Venkataramanan, folks,
> 
> I would like to draw your attention to SIP "telephony"
> devices integrated into such emerging products as Microsoft 
> Office 2003, Siemens OpenScape and IBM Sametime. Looking at 
> them makes you aware the notion of "business phone" is 
> completely obsolete, IMHO. My apology to countless other 
> vendors having or developing similar innovative 
> communications/application platforms for not mentioning here 
> or not knowing about them.
> 
> As such, "business phone" standards would be in conflict with
> innovation. My two cents.
> 
> BTW: I work for neither of the above companies.
> 
> Henry
> 
> Henry Sinnreich
> MCI
> 400 International Parkway
> Richardson, Texas 75081
> USA
> 
> Have you disconnected the PBX?
>  
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sharath Rajasekar [mailto:[email-masked]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 10:53 PM
> > To: [email-masked]'; [email-masked]'
> > Cc: Venkatesh Venkataramanan
> > Subject: RE: [Sipping] I-D
> > ACTION:draft-sharath-sipb-requirements-00.txt
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Henry,
> > 
> > The draft you have indicated in this email attempts to standardize 
> > device configuration procedures and physical device requirements 
> > (with a mention of a small subset of features which really 
> > contradicts your comment about "Just buy and plug it in" 
> > requirements). We in our draft however, have focused on a broad set 
> > of "features/applications" that are most commonly implemented or 
> > desired in phones used in a variety of business environments. Thus, 
> > the two drafts address different sets of needs.
> > 
> > We understand your concern about varying requirements for differing 
> > businesses. However, we believe that the minimal requirements for 
> > what a business phone's feature set must be, is not only independent

> > of the environment of its use but also does not preclude a vendor 
> > from implementing additional features to address/fulfill the context

> > of its use. Thus this draft, in no way limits or curtails 
> > innovation.
> > 
> > While what our draft defines in terms of "MUST", "SHOULD" and "MAY",

> > are still open to debate, we fully believe in the applicability of 
> > our draft in todays context.
> > 
> > Regards
> > Sharath
> > 
> > 
> > --  -----Original Message-----
> > --  From: Henry Sinnreich [mailto:[email-masked]]
> > --  Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 6:19 PM
> > --  To: SIP Mailing List
> > --  Subject: RE: [Sipping] I-D
> > --  ACTION:draft-sharath-sipb-requirements-00.txt
> > --
> > --  
> > --  Venkatesh,
> > --  
> > --  I tend to agree with Brian. It is not quite clear to me 
> > --  what a "business
> > --  phone" is today, given that different business users have 
> > --  very different
> > --  requirements:
> > --  
> > --  -person in the mail room: the lowest cost phone, no display,
> > --  
> > --  -person in the storage area: cordless 802.11x SIP phone,
> > --  
> > --  -executive desk: high quality speakerphone with 
> rollodex and color
> > --  display,
> > --
> > --  -secretary, receptionist, agent: agent workstation = PC
> > --  
> > --  -cubicle dweller with headset: PC
> > --  
> > --  -travelling employee: laptop or PDA
> > --  
> > --  -nurse in hospital: tablet PC with softclient, etc., etc.
> > --  
> > --  Under these circumstances, what matters is how/what SIP 
> telephony
> > --  devices speak  across the wire, auto-configuration
> > process and data
> > --  format examples, so that users should not worry how to 
> install and
> > --  configure them. The acoustic properties and codecs can be
> > --  mentioned in
> > --  references to TIA and other documents that deal with 
> > --  desktop phones, but
> > --  for the reasons shown, I doubt we want to block innovation. 
> > --  Any device
> > --  can behave like a phone, even my copy machine/fax - this is 
> > --  not a cute
> > --  joke...
> > --  
> > --  In conclusion, I believe "business" phones MUST not be 
> > --  standardized, but
> > --  only how they communicate and how they are configured 
> > automatically.
> > --  
> > --  If there are missing aspects in the I-D on SIP telephony 
> > --  devices, the
> > --  authors will be happy to include your contributions, if 
> > --  they fall into
> > --  the scope mentioned: "Just buy and plug it in". Please send any
> > --  contributions to the authors and I believe they should also 
> > --  be copied to
> > --  the list, so we can discuss.
> > --  
> > --  We respectfully reserve however the right to stick to what 
> > --  we believe is
> > --  required to meet the objectives specified in our I-D, since they
> > --  represent deployment eperience of large numbers of SIP 
> > --  phones in a large
> > --  number of networks.
> > --  
> > --  Henry
> > --  
> > --  > -----Original Message-----
> > --  > From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> > --  > On Behalf Of Venkatesh Venkataramanan
> > --  > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 2:17 PM
> > --  > To: 'Rosen, Brian'; [email-masked]
> > --  > Cc: Sharath Rajasekar
> > --  > Subject: RE: [Sipping] I-D 
> > --  > ACTION:draft-sharath-sipb-requirements-00.txt
> > --  > 
> > --  > 
> > --  > Hi:
> > --  > 
> > --  > We are very interested in making this a SIPPING WG action 
> > --  > item as well.
> > --  > 
> > --  > DND in the true sense rejects any incoming call from being 
> > --  > offerred on to the end device. It is a terminal state like 
> > --  > you have indicated in this email. A presence based 
> > --  > implementation that allows calls selectively like you have 
> > --  > indicated could be thought of as a call screening type of 
> > --  > application rather than DND? 
> > --  > 
> > --  > Venkatesh
> > --  > 
> > --  > -----Original Message-----
> > --  > From: Rosen, Brian [mailto:[email-masked]]
> > --  > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 6:01 AM
> > --  > To: [email-masked]
> > --  > Subject: RE: [Sipping] I-D 
> > --  > ACTION:draft-sharath-sipb-requirements-00.txt
> > --  > 
> > --  > 
> > --  > While there is a lot to like about this draft, I think I 
> > --  > could spend a couple hours poking holes in it.  Let me give 
> > --  > you a "for instance":
> > --  >    DS-6: All SIP business phones MUST support DND. The 
> > --  DND feature, 
> > --  >    when activated, MUST reject any incoming call meant 
> > --  for the phone 
> > --  >    with a 486 Busy response code or MAY redirect the call 
> > --  to voice 
> > --  >    mail.
> > --  > 
> > --  > A presence based implementation of DND might selectively 
> > --  > reject calls based on who is calling.  My wife and possibly 
> > --  > my boss might be able to ring through, most other callers 
> > --  > could not.  If I implemented a phone this way, it would not 
> > --  > be compliant with DS-6.
> > --  > 
> > --  > Forwarding for DND might best be done at the proxy server, 
> > --  > since you want it to work if the phone is "down".  
> > --  > 
> > --  > I also object to the language "meant for the phone".  A call 
> > --  > to our phones is "meant for the user", since we require a 
> > --  > login.  We have VERY little phones state, basically just IP 
> > --  > addressing things. Everything else is user based, not phone 
> > --  > based.  I wouldn't want to make it a requirement that DND was 
> > --  > phone state.  I would want it to be possible to have a phone 
> > --  > that two users were logged into 
> > --  > simultaneously, one of which was DND.
> > --  > 
> > --  > I'll do the review work, but first I want to ask if this 
> > --  > draft is going to be the basis of work in the sipping group.  
> > --  > I note that there are other efforts along similar lines, 
> > --  > although this draft is specific to a "business" phone, if 
> > --  > that actually matters. So, I guess I'm asking two questions:
> > --  > 	Is sipping going to undertake what I would 
> > suggest is best
> > --  > 		cast as a BCP on business telephones?
> > --  > 	Is this draft the basis for that work?
> > --  > 
> > --  > I personally think that starting from the work Henry et. al. 
> > --  > did is a better path.  Adding "business" profiles to that 
> > --  > would be one way.
> > --  > 
> > --  > Brian
> > --  > 
> > --  > > -----Original Message-----
> > --  > > From: [email-masked] 
> > [mailto:[email-masked]]
> > --  > > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 6:57 AM
> > --  > > To: @IETF-Announce.{MARCONI}
> > --  > > Cc: [email-masked]
> > --  > > Subject: [Sipping] I-D 
> > --  ACTION:draft-sharath-sipb-requirements-00.txt
> > --  > > 
> > --  > > 
> > --  > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
> > --  > > Internet-Drafts directories.
> > --  > > 
> > --  > > 
> > --  > > 	Title		: SIP-B: SIP for Business Phones 
> > --  > > Requirements for 
> > --  > >                           Implementing Business Telephony
> > --  > > Features on SIP 
> > --  > >                           Endpoints
> > --  > > 	Author(s)	: V. Venkataramanan, S. Rajasekar
> > --  > > 	Filename	: draft-sharath-sipb-requirements-00.txt
> > --  > > 	Pages		: 16
> > --  > > 	Date		: 2003-6-23
> > --  > > 	
> > --  > > This informational internet draft describes the 
> > --  requirements for a
> > --  > > standard business telephone based on the Session Initiation 
> > --  > Protocol 
> > --  > > (SIP). The objective of this document is to provide a 
> > --  > minimum set of 
> > --  > > requirements for implementing business features on SIP 
> > --  endpoints.  
> > --  > > This draft is intended to serve as a requirements 
> > document for 
> > --  > > vendors    implementing    business    features    on    
> > --  > SIP    based 
> > --  > > devices/entities. Details of how each capability or 
> > --  feature is best 
> > --  > > implemented in SIP, is beyond the scope of this 
> > --  document and may be 
> > --  > > tracked through the working group draft submissions.
> > --  > > 
> > --  > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: 
> > --  > > 
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sharath-sipb-require
> > --  > ments-00.txt
> > --  >
> > --  > To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send 
> > --  a message to 
> > --  > ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body 
> > --  > of the message.
> > --  > 
> > --  > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login 
> > --  > with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail 
> > --  > address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> > --  > 	"get draft-sharath-sipb-requirements-00.txt".
> > --  > 
> > --  > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in 
> > --  > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html 
> > --  > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> > --  > 
> > --  > 
> > --  > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> > --  > 
> > --  > Send a message to:
> > --  > 	[email-masked].
> > --  > In the body type:
> > --  > 	"FILE 
> > /internet-drafts/draft-sharath-sipb-requirements-00.txt".
> > --  > 	
> > --  > NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> > --  > 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. 
> >  To use this
> > --  > 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" 
> > before the "FILE"
> > --  > 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will 
> > need "munpack" or
> > --  > 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant 
> > --  > mail readers
> > --  > 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> > --  > 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which 
> > have been split
> > --  > 	up into multiple messages), so check your local 
> > documentation on
> > --  > 	how to manipulate these messages.
> > --  > 		
> > --  > 		
> > --  > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail 
> > --  > reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII 
> > --  > version of the Internet-Draft.
> > --  > 
> > --  > _______________________________________________
> > --  > Sipping mailing list  
> > --  https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sipping
> > --  > This list is for NEW development of the application of SIP
> > --  > Use [email-masked] for questions on current 
> > --  > sip Use [email-masked] for new developments of core SIP
> > --  > 
> > --  > 
> > --  > _______________________________________________
> > --  > Sipping mailing list  
> > --  https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sipping
> > --  > This list is for NEW development of the application of SIP
> > --  > Use [email-masked] for questions on current 
> > --  > sip Use [email-masked] for new developments of core SIP
> > --  > 
> > --  
> > --  
> > --  _______________________________________________
> > --  Sipping mailing list  
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listi> nfo/sipping
> > --  This list 
> > is for NEW development of the 
> > application of SIP
> > --  Use [email-masked] for questions on 
> current sip
> > --  Use [email-masked] for new developments of core SIP
> > --
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> This list is for NEW development of the application of SIP Use 
> [email-masked] for questions on current sip Use 
> [email-masked] for new developments of core SIP
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> This list is for NEW development of the application of SIP Use 
> [email-masked] for questions on current sip Use 
> [email-masked] for new developments of core SIP
> 

_______________________________________________
Sipping mailing list  https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sipping
This list is for NEW development of the application of SIP
Use [email-masked] for questions on current sip
Use [email-masked] for new developments of core SIP