Subject: [smartpower-interest] IP based metering project in Victoria, Australia

From: "Greg Daley" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:00:17 +1100

Hi Paul, 

I wasn't on list when you posted, so please excuse the broken threading.

> Fred,
>
>
>I haven't been following the smartpower stuff, so this might be a naive
question:
>
>What is the primary perceived relation between smart power and
ietf/networks/routing/etc.?
>
>- is it the use of networking technology for communication of
>  control and management of the power grid?
>
>- or is it going further and thinking of a "power plane" as
>  analogous to a "data plane", so that we might end up using
>  routing protocols to route electrons rather than just data?
>
> - or is the it a purpose of this list to figure that out?
>
>	Thanks,
>	Paul

At the moment, I guess there are at least two components of the
power network which make use of IP data networking:

The SCADA systems which manage the generation and distribution
infrastructure.

The "Advanced Metering" systems which are part of a trend to
provide customer billing, interval monitoring and adaptive load
shedding (in case of power shortage).

>From what I can tell, power utilization and load shedding control
is being rolled out to the meter box in a number of regions,
including mine:

www.dpi.vic.gov.au/smartmeters/

Within a home or business environment though, load shedding can have
adverse impacts where equipment is powered down precipitately, or if
power is switched off to all devices within a premises.

One of the more advanced capabilities which is available with smart
metering initiatives is to extend the reach of the control and 
informative communications from the meter point to the rest of the site.

This may allow devices to report individual usage within the network, 
and participate in preferential load reduction operations.

A series of public documents relating to some of these issues are
available at:

http://new.dpi.vic.gov.au/energy/projects,-research--and--development2/s
mart-meters/ami-consultation

Please note that PDF links are broken, but HTML conversions are
available.

There are Zigbee Power management (Smart Power) profiles which are
proposed for use with the Victorian system.  I would guess that there
may be architectural IP or security implications across various
power management profiles or protocols, which may be useful for
the IETF to contribure to.

Perhaps this is the focus of the list?

Please note that my interest here is from the IETF side only,
I am not participating directly in the work on metering in Victoria.

As an aside, routing electrons using any other protocol than 
Physics, is probably out of scope.

Sincerely,

Greg Daley

---

From: Paul Kyzivat <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:55:29 -0500

>>  routing protocols to route electrons rather than just data?

[snip]

> Physics, is probably out of scope.

When I asked that question, it was only half tongue in cheek.
It couldn't really be "routing electrons" (there's not much room for 
addressing in addition to the payload) - it pretty much has to be 
circuit switching to get the electrons from where they are available to 
where they are needed. But I was wondering if routing algorithms for the 
power itself was on the table.

	Thanks,
	Paul

---

From: "Greg Daley" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:29:33 +1100

Hi Paul,

> circuit switching to get the electrons from where they are 
> available to where they are needed. But I was wondering if routing 
> algorithms for the power itself was on the table.

I'm not actually sure if this is in scope today, but may be if there is
interest.  Similar algorithms to those used in the Internet have
been used for control of circuit oriented networks before (ATM/PNNI,
etc).

There is a focus on Power Engineering (TG1)in the new IEEE P2030
standards
group on the Smart Grid:

https://mentor.ieee.org/2030/dcn/09/2030-09-0132-00-0002-eei-presentatio
n-oct-2009-mtg.pptx 

Greg

---

From: Alexandru Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 10:30:10 +0100

Le 19/01/2010 15:55, Paul Kyzivat a écrit :
>
>
> Greg Daley wrote:
>> Hi Paul, I wasn't on list when you posted, so please excuse the
>> broken threading.
>>
>>> Fred,
>>>
>>>
> When I asked that question, it was only half tongue in cheek. It
> couldn't really be "routing electrons" (there's not much room for
> circuit switching to get the electrons from where they are available
>  to where they are needed. But I was wondering if routing algorithms
>  for the power itself was on the table.

This came up in a recent discussion.  It was mentioned that during power
failures (as during severe weather) human intervention is needed on some
trunks ; for humans to climb on poles it is necessary that some
electricity feeders are cut, which is conceptually similar to a data
link going down.

And, in the same vein, electricity must arrive at the destination via
other ways than the typical trunks.  How is this path set up?

The growing importance of this problem relates to the growing number of
electricity suppliers.

I guess routing algorithms as we know them in link-state/etc can deal
with it in a scalable manner.

Alex

>
> Thanks, Paul _______________________________________________
> smartpower-interest mailing list [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/smartpower-interest
>

---

From: "Greg Daley" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 16:24:56 +1100

Hi Alexandru,  

> -----Original Message-----
> >>>
> >>>

Existing dynamic routing algorithms have been used in establishing 
circuit-oriented communications before now (e.g. ATM/PNNI).  

It may be feasible to treat the high voltage electrical pathways as
similar to the routing paths which we currently route in IP.  That said,

the behaviour of electrons is unlike that of packets:  They will 
load share based on resistance in alternate paths rather than following
shortest path.

So we'd need to determine if the switching models used in IP or in 
(Virtual) Circuit switching environments are even useful before we
looked into
them. Input from Networking and SCADA aware Power Engineers would be
highly valuable.

Feel free to volunteer your friends and associates.

Sincerely,
Greg Daley

---

From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 21:17:56 -0500

>>>>> "Greg" == Greg Daley <[email-masked]> writes:
    Greg> Existing dynamic routing algorithms have been used in
    Greg> establishing circuit-oriented communications before now
    Greg> (e.g. ATM/PNNI).

    Greg> It may be feasible to treat the high voltage electrical
    Greg> pathways as similar to the routing paths which we currently
    Greg> route in IP.  That said,

    Greg> the behaviour of electrons is unlike that of packets: They
    Greg> will load share based on resistance in alternate paths rather
    Greg> than following shortest path.

My impression is that getting packets to act like electrons is somewhat
of a holy grail in ATM/MPLS networks...   :-)

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