Subject: [Stackevo] Draft minutes from notes and memory

From: Brian Trammell <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 16:57:29 -0300

Greetings, all

First draft minutes. There's probably a lot missing, wanted to get these out before the IETF melts my brain though. I'm not minuting the IOTSI over-layer-5 discussion as out of scope. Please send corrections, omissions, or requests to me this week.

Thanks, cheers,

Brian

Stack Evolution Program Meeting Minutes
=======================================

Monday 4 April 2016 - 12:30 UTC - 3 - IAB Breakout Room

Attending
---------

Brian Trammell (Lead)
Ralph Droms
Ted Hardie
Joe Hildebrand
Erik Nordmark
Robert Sparks
Dave Thaler
Lee Howard
Spencer Dawkins
Aaron Falk
Jana Iyengar
Mirja Kuehlewind
Eliot Lear
Natasha Rooney
Martin Stiemerling
Gorry Fairhurst
Michael Welzl
Bob Briscoe (visiting)

Following up on the IAB Program Review
--------------------------------------

The program decided to accept the new program description posted to the
mailing list in late March, pending final review by members who had not yet
had a chance to do so. Brian Trammell will forward the text to Cindy Morgan
later this week.

Though the IoT Semantic Interoperability (IOTSI workshop started as a
discussion within the Program, it was decided that the workshop, given its
scope and program committee, was in reality an IAB workshop without program,
and will not be added to the "workshops held" section of the description.

The Program further decided, following a suggestion from the IAB review, that
a virtual interim program meeting would be a good way to clock the program
more quickly. Brian will send a Doodle this week to determine a good time for
this virtual interim meeting, around the last week in May 2016.

Guidelines for using Encapsulation
----------------------------------

Erik Nordmark and Gorry Fairhurst noted that UDP guidelines are done, GRE in
UDP is in last call, and the various routing area documents are under review.
For the most part, each use of (especially UDP) encapsulation here appears
appropriate, so there is no obvious work item for the Program at this time.
Erik will keep an eye on developments in this area.

Stack interoperability for the Internet of Things
-------------------------------------------------

The IOTSI workshop declared stack interoperability (layer 1-4) problems
explicitly out of scope, so there were no outcomes of the workshop relevant to
the program. The problem of different arrangements of protocols in the
Internet protocol stack in the IoT space which are non-interoperable remains
troubling, however. Ralph Droms will draft an initial problem statement for
this problem with a few illustrative examples of the arrangements of protocols
in which the problems arise.

draft-iab-protocol-transitions
------------------------------

We need more case studies to illustrate transitions gone right and wrong.
Brian has contributed one on ECN. The following people have been volunteered
to write about the following transitions:

- Mirja Kühlewind on MPTCP
- Marc Blanchet on MIME
- Lee Howard on IPv6
- Ted Hardie will find an appropriate author on DNSSEC

Eliot Lear will solicit input on the document from ITAT workshop participants.

ETSI Next Generation Protocols ISG
----------------------------------

Ted Hardie voiced concern that the ETSI Next Generation Protocols ISG is in
danger of proposing a broken Internet architecture. New architecture based on
virtual circuits, with the promise of improving manageability in carrier
networks, pose a danger of "slouching toward catenetworking", i.e. further
breaking the end-to-end Internet into a concatenation of paths using
incompatible protocol stacks. The program discussed whether there is a work
item to address this concern at this time.

Jana Iyengar pointed out that (in the context of MaRNEW, where a subset of
this problem was discussed) there was no evidence of any of the promised
benefits of such architectures. He suggested that working to make transport
protocols work better in managed radio networks without virtual-circuit-based
management might reduce interest in such architectures.

Ralph Droms will join the ISG on behalf of the Program and/or the IAB, to
report on developments in the program. Natasha Rooney is also watching the
program and will report back to the program.

Statement on Explicit Cooperation and SPUD
------------------------------------------

draft-trammell-stackevo-explicit-coop has expired, and most of its interesting
content has been pulled into draft-trammell-spud-req and draft-kuehlewind-
spud-use-cases. The program discussed whether the core thesis of this draft
("explicit cooperation between endpoints and path devices is better than
implicit cooperation") would be the basis of an IAB statement. Joe Hildebrand
suggested such a thing would be premature, but volunteered to take the pen for
a zeroeth draft of such a statement in order to see where more work needs to
be done to justify the statement.

Aaron Falk and Robert Sparks requested that progress on the SPUD drafts and
prototype be more transparently reported to the program and the community.
Brian took the action to announce the latest drafts to [email-masked] and
[email-masked].

---

From: Brian Trammell <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 17:02:43 -0300

Greetings, all,

Revised minutes (thanks, Ted!). Please have a look and send further corrections this week.

Cheers,

Brian

Monday 4 April 2016 - 12:30 UTC-3 - Pacará A

Attending
---------

Brian Trammell (Lead)
Ralph Droms
Ted Hardie
Joe Hildebrand
Erik Nordmark
Robert Sparks
Dave Thaler
Lee Howard
Spencer Dawkins
Aaron Falk
Jana Iyengar
Mirja Kühlewind
Eliot Lear
Natasha Rooney
Martin Stiemerling
Gorry Fairhurst
Michael Welzl
Bob Briscoe (visiting)

The program discussed the scope of the ETSI NGP ISG.

Jana Iyengar pointed out that (in the context of MaRNEW, where a subset of
the problem the ISG targets was discussed) there was no evidence of any of
the promised benefits of "tunnel-heavy" architectures. He suggested that
working to make transport protocols work better in managed radio networks
without virtual-circuit-based management might reduce interest in such architectures.

Ralph Droms will work to join the ISG on behalf of the Program and/or the IAB,
to report on developments in the program. Natasha Rooney is also watching the
program and will report back to the program.

"Slouching toward Catenets"
---------------------------

Thinking about the possible impact of both new virtual circuit technologies
and the intersection of those with SDN-based 5-tuple routing, the group
briefly discussed the danger of the current Internet architecture being
transformed to one where incompatible stacks and routing interwork only
because of gateways between networks.  The program discussed whether there is
a work item to address this concern at this time, and a discussion draft will
be produced.