Subject: RE: Moving Targets

From: "Sing Lin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 19:54:46 -0400

Shaun:

The ITU-R data rate requirement on the Global Third Generation (G3G)
IMT-2000 wireless systems is 144 Kb/s for high speed vehicles with speed up
to 500 Km/hr and is 2 Mb/s for indoor or stationary aplications. The
commercial deployment of 3G IMT-2000 systems is expected to start in May
2001 in Japan.

Are such data rates of IMT-2000 wireless mobile services sufficient for your
applications?

Sing Lin

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
Behalf Of [email-masked]
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 1:51 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Moving Targets

Hi,

I'm doing a research project about providing Internet access to moving
targets on the eastern seabord of Australia. In this case, the moving
targets are trains.

We really need to provide around 1MB or so downstream, maybe 56k or so
uplink. I've been doing a lot of searching but facts seem to be hard
to come by.

By my reckoning something like a link to an LEO constellation is
needed to make this work because:
        - GEO satellites can't easily provide this type of bandwidth
        - GEO satellites require reasonably large dishes and need to
fairly precisely targetted at the sat
        - Line of sight is needed for GEO links to work

Basically, I'm hoping that with LEO links a dish won't even be
required, some sort of antenna? Do any of the currently existing LEO
constellations provide this sort of service? Future ones?

Am I completely barking up the wrong tree here? Is there a better way
of providing reasonably high speed internet access to moving vehicles
without cabling etc.

Thanks in advance,
Shaun

---

From: "Sing Lin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 20:03:37 -0400

Shaun:

Two more technologies that may be related to what you are looking for:

1. Teledesic system sponsored by the Telecommunication Pioneer, Craig McCaw,
Microsoft's Bill Gates and Boeing company. Teledesic will use more than 200
LEO satellites to provide "Internet in the Sky" services. More information
on Teledesic system is available at its web site at: www.teledesic.com
2. High Altitude Platform (HAP) or Stratopheric Telecommunication Services
that uses special aircrafts or special ballon at the altitude of about 21
Kilometers above the ground to provide fixed and mobile telecommunications
services. Some information are available at the web site: www.skystation.com

Sing Lin

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
Behalf Of Sing Lin
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 7:55 PM
To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: RE: Moving Targets

Shaun:

Sing Lin

-----Original Message-----

Hi,

Thanks in advance,
Shaun

---

From: "Andreas Timm-Giel" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 07:37:58 +0200

Hi Shaun,

we are working in the satellite area of highly portable (Inmarsat like)
satcom and are offering services similar to your requirements using L-band
GEO satellites in Europe.

If you are looking for satellites for your application you will always (mid
term 5-10 yrs future) need a line-of-sight to the satellite, independent of
the orbit.

GEO systems are available serving your bandwidth requirements. However, if
you think of Ku/Ka-band systems, the antenna pointing is critical (in
particular with this speed). If you are looking for GEO L-, S-band systems
you could most get an autotracking antenna, which is fast enough for your
trains. However it is rather bulky (would assume around 1 m in diameter),
very much depending on the satellite you use. Additionally you would always
need a line-of-sight (difficult with tunnels). Second problem for L- and
S-band systems will be the prices for capacity on satellites (just as a
reference: Inmarsat takes around US$ 7 / min for a 64 kbit/s link)

LEO systems offering 1 Mbit/s are not on the market tody, but will evolve,
however I do not expect them before 2003 or later ?) and they will also
require a direct line-of-sight to the satellite (with the advantage, that
there is usually more than one in sight...), at least for high bandwidths.
The antennas should be smaller, the transmission delay is shorter and
spectrum costs will be lower than with L-band GEO systems. But you need some
hand-over mechanism and there is a significant doppler shift due to the
movement of the satellites...

Another alternative are as mentioned by others already mobile radio systems.
In particular 3rd Generation UMTS/IMT-2000/3GPP (cf www.3gpp.org )could be
interesting in this context.

Another idea which strikes me: it should be possible to use a DAB (Digital
Audio Broadcast, specified up to around 2 Mbit/s and high speed vehicles
[cars, trains]) like system for the forward (to the train) link and a
cellular phone link in return (e.g. GSM-GPRS or UMTS/IMT-2000).

All in all, it very much depends on your further requirements (costs, time
frame, space on the trains, possibilities to set up antennas along the
tracks, regulations etc.)

If you have further questions you are welcome to contact me directly.

Kind regards

Andreas

---
------------------------------------
Dr.-Ing. Andreas Timm-Giel
MediaMobil Communication GmbH
Fahrenheitstr. 1
D - 28359 BREMEN
Germany

Phone:  +49 (0) 421 20 10 088
Fax:    +49 (0) 421 22 39 418

email:  [email-masked]
------------------------------------

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]Im
> Auftrag von [email-masked]
> Gesendet am: Samstag, 30. September 2000 07:51
> An: [email-masked]
> Betreff: Moving Targets
>
> Hi,
>

---

From: Charlie Younghusband <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:26:07 -0400

At $7 US/minute @ 64kbps, that's $420 /hr @ 64kbps or 6720 US $ / hr @ 1Mbps.
Plus hw & ISP costs for down under.  Yikes.  Your research project could end
pretty quickly with an Inmarsat type solution.

Want a real research project?  Find a way to send the signal through the train
tracks.  ;)  Only way to really fix the tunnel problem!

Seriously though, I'd talk to some of the wireless providers in Australia.
Australia is quite advanced at digital wireless services, they might be all over
an additional excuse to expand their east coast network where most Aussie cities
are anyway.

Charlie

Also note that a 1Mbps downstream and a 56 upstream probably isn't a good
matchup (an offhand guess); even if you're doing 100% downloading of files, your
upstream bandwidth could quickly become the bottleneck just with ACKs assuming
normal windows TCP/IP.  Something closer to a 10 to 1 ratio might be more
appropriate.  Check some of the litterature regarding assymetry and TCP/IP.

Andreas Timm-Giel wrote:
Second problem for L- and

> >--

Charlie Younghusband
Network Systems Engineering
Xiphos Technologies    http://www.xiphos.ca/
514-848-9640           (f) 514-848-9644

---

From: "John Bourke" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:03:30 +0100

Folks,

Internet over DVB forward path with a stabilised antenna.

Inmarsat return path via Inmarsat Packet Data with a stabilised antenna.
Pay per Mbyte on this.

That's 6-8 Mbits shared forward ( across all trains ) and 64Kbits return per
train.

john

---

From: "Michael C. Maguire" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:07:00 -0700

All,

Regarding mobile autotracking antennas for data services, see:

http://www.datrondbs.com/p4500RV.html  or
http://www.datrondbs.com/p4500Marine.html

I believe Datron has also experimented with mobile Internet services using
these antennas.

Regards, mcm

Michael C. Maguire
email: [email-masked]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
Behalf Of Andreas Timm-Giel
Sent: Tuesday, 03 October, 2000 22:38
To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: AW: Moving Targets
<snip>
GEO systems are available serving your bandwidth requirements. However, if
you think of Ku/Ka-band systems, the antenna pointing is critical (in
particular with this speed). If you are looking for GEO L-, S-band systems
you could most get an autotracking antenna, which is fast enough for your
trains. However it is rather bulky (would assume around 1 m in diameter),
very much depending on the satellite you use. Additionally you would always
need a line-of-sight (difficult with tunnels). Second problem for L- and
S-band systems will be the prices for capacity on satellites (just as a
reference: Inmarsat takes around US$ 7 / min for a 64 kbit/s link)
<snip>
Andreas

---

<snip>

---

From: Jon Mansey <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:26:50 -0700

Hi,

Its not a sat solution, I know, but what about sending the data 
through the tracks akin to how they modulate data onto power lines. I 
hear up to a Mbit is possible.

No problems with tunnels then eh?

jm

-- 

[email-masked]                          Chief Science Officer
------------------------------------------------------------------
           "The Global Leader in Internet Via Satellite"
InterPacket Networks, Inc.              http://www.interpacket.net
1901 Main St.                                   tel (310) 382 3300
Santa Monica, California 90405                  fax (310) 382 3310
------------------------------------------------------------------

---

From: "Peter Sterling" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:34:45 -0700

There are hardly any tunnels on the route to Perth or Darwin so the tunnels
are not really an issue here.

Peter

---

From: "Charles A. Ross" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 12:44:00 -0400

re: Re: Moving Targets...This is easy, gentlemen...with Moving Trains in the
Wilderness!..Our specialty...

Hello Shaun, and Global Colleague Ladies and Gentlemen....
    This is very easy to do and it is one of our specialties for many years.
Do a web search and you will see. We're always happy to help! We have been
reading through weeks of agony and nice ideas here in this forum, but we've
been totally busy with the INTELSAT Global Operations Representatives 2000
Meeting, just finished, and can only now get to this.We designed the
comprehensive answer to your problem Shaun (and much more) several years
ago; and it is easier and cheaper than many of our friends out there are
thinking. We are happy to reply.
    In a nutshell...with a little creativity, and...certainly no cables are
required, too! (Why? Expensive cables 'disappear' to unscrupulous scrap
metal merchants in the wilderness, sold 'by the pound/kilo', and fibre just
gets cut by angry, vengeful metallic cable thieves! High grade copper has
its 'price' after the shiny new insulation is burnt off.)
1. Anybody have a yacht out on the Great Barrier Reef? Install a hybrid
tracking antenna for Ku band on each train at the locomotive or
baggage/goods car where your team is located...in a nice little low dome to
keep things forever clean, and designed to be largely invisible to vandals.
We can show you how to have no RF problems even on electrified
lines....25,000V, for example!
2. Connect it to INTELSAT for a low cost uplink solution and global outbound
connectivity. Want voice, too? A unified Extreme Thin Route VOIP stream in a
very thin, yet quality controlled link does the trick, with on-demand
service.
3. With a little creativity, one can also have a cheap DVB receive-only
signal coming down...and all the Internet speed you can dream of at low
cost. You may be able to use an existing service and piggy back your
downloads on a system already up. We can make suggestions.
4. Again, please forget about Leos and Meos and highly elliptical
orbits...your system doesn't need them. Keep it SIMPLE and Rugged...this is
for trains, remember...and use COTS solutions we have already developed and
anybody can do. Run it all on INTELSAT on the same bird. Keep life simple
and cheap and Carrier Grade. We can work with our correspondent friends at
TELSTRA to help you set it up quickly...get you local names to call, and
such.
5. Please Don't Worry about the few tunnels. We answered that problem years
ago in all its ramifications, including safety of highly valuable, even
nuclear cargoes traveling through the wilderness where there are no radio or
terrestrial links of any kind, by including a GPS system we designed on
Trimble Navigation gear we do...though we can do it on anything you like.
There are a lot of low cost bells and whistles we can add, but Please
remember that you do not 'park' your trains in tunnels, and it only takes a
few seconds to go through them. So, by default, from an operational safety
perspective, if HQ loses your cheapo satellite ID return signal for more
than a few seconds (think of it as a beep with a GPS locator ID included),
your train is in trouble>>>'right there on the map on the monitor'. Remember
every train has a known length...and every tunnel has a known length....and
we know where your train is at all times in the beautiful Australian
wilderness (right?)...and we know the speed your train is traveling at, in
real time....and at what speed your train should be traveling...so we can
set an alarm on the master console (hundreds of miles away) to go off if you
don't come out of *that* tunnel after XX seconds, when your train normally
re-registers by satellite from that nice little Ku band hybrid antenna we
installed! If necessary, we call out the rescue helicopters in seconds to
help you and they can be airborne and en-route to your precisely known
location in a single handful of minutes!
6. We'll lease all the gear to you, too, so, it comes out of taxes and you
can upgrade promptly at the right times, software included...so this is much
easier for the railroad (or other service provider) to justify in the
business plan. Some things on trains don't need to be screwed in for
decades!

   Everyone please accept our apologies; no... we are not pitching a
product/service, but please don't hesitate to drop us a line....We would
love to work with you. We developed this comprehensive satellite, wireless,
GPS and wireline answer (and more), many years ago for secure global
transport of trains and ro-ro containers in Central Europe..and for even the
individual sensitive cargoes on various cars/carriages on each train. It
uses Cheap, Commercial-Off-The-Shelf *Everything...and it is "Carrier Grade"
service. Australia was one of the model 'environments' we originally
identified for such a solution as we developed for transport across the
entire Eur-Asian Continental Market Area, particularly starting in Central
and Eastern Europe...where problems can begin, so to speak. It is part of a
comprehensive global secure transport solution we presented to the European
Commission, DG XIII, years ago, in cooperation with the Czech Railways. We
designed it for and with them, as you can read on the web.

Best Regards,
Charles A. Ross
President
BEEDNET Group
Prague & Washington
+1.703.524.1517 E-VoiceMail & E-Fax
+420.603.500.000 GSM
[email-masked]

---

From: "Peter Sterling" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 10:59:28 -0700

Mobile & Satellite: Bluetooth trial raises spectrum concerns
By Joanne Taaffe
05 June 2000

CWI Online

.......The Swedish Railway has installed the Bluetooth LAN on a commuter
train that runs into Stockholm, as well as at the Stockholm central railway
station. Users have maximum data access speeds of 1 megabit per second.

The trial is limited to around 10 commuters, each with a GSM WAP phone and a
Bluetooth unit. The commuters can store virtual train tickets in their
phones which are punched virtually by the train conductor, who can also use
the Bluetooth LAN to check that the ticket corresponds to the seat number.

"It's a boost for our own staff and for our customers," said Tony Nyden,
manager of IT and infrastructure for the Swedish Railway, which plans to
extend the service to offer its customers and staff Internet access via
satellite networks.

No clear business models
The Railway relies on a publicly owned GSM network, called GSM.R, dedicated
to its use for links between the moving train and the outside world.
Transport companies, airports and conference centers are likely to be first
to deploy Bluetooth for ticket sales, information services and e-mail
downloads.